That is very true. Well then again I've only had assignents where I had to compose two-part inventions based on Bach's work, while I've had some contemporary assignments where I had to analyze and rearrange songs like On Green Dolphin Street, Straight No Chaser and stuff like that.

It really boils down to your interest in the end :)

melodic minor scale
 

well im just touching the surface of the melodic minor scale, and i would really appreciate some help.

1. is there a seperate or similar standard solfeggio for melodic minor scale, as there is for major scales? And if its not would it be bad to improvise something based on solfeggio from the major scales for instance:
La ti do re mi la ti do
------------(fa)--(la)-----

So what i began saying was La ti do re mi la ti La, on the way up because it at least prepared me for the correct interval step. and it worked real well. i just play it down without voicing anything....

If you get what i am saying......I learned the basic sound of the scale that way, but im not sure if that will conflict with me later learning the scales modulations. So should i keep voicing it that way in my head?

Also does anyone know the chords that are built on the tones of the melodic minor scale?

melodic minor chords
 

In ascending order

1.minor
2.minor
3.augmented
4.dominant
5.dominant
6.flat 5
7.flat 5

and the 7th chords

1: Min(Maj7)
2: Min7
3: Maj7#5
4: 7 #11 (Dominant)
5: 7 b13 (Dominant)
6: Min7 b5
7: Min7 b5

however, the 7th degree is better characterized as a dominant 7 with every possible tension (b9 #9 #11 b13). Also known as the altered scale, so whenever you see something like G7alt. it is referring to this scale.

and I'm not all that familiar with singing solfeggio syllables, but I would think that it would be better to sing do re me fa so la ti do. it makes more sense to put the do as your root.

[QUOTE=spastic]and I'm not all that familiar with singing solfeggio syllables, but I would think that it would be better to sing do re me fa so la ti do. it makes more sense to put the do as your root.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info guys!

hmmm. well since by name it is a minor scale i would think that you would start on La, as you would the natural minor scale. but since the melodic minor scale sounds major as well, maybe not. I dont know too much about solfeggio but what would make the most sense to me as a musician is having a seperate set of acronyms that would flow easily with the standard solfeggio, so to make it easyer to move back and forth easily. whether this exhists or not i have no idea.

JustWondering: If I'm not mistaken (and what I've learnt in ear training class), you still sing the root of a minor scale as Do :)

Otherwise it's just confusing. It's jus the sound of your Do needs to sound like the root of the scale, and from there you progress.

Alright cool.
thanks for the help guys.

its taking some getting used to but im singing the melodic minor starting on Do and its actually starting to sound familiar this way. has anyone actually learned the melodic minor scale using solfeggio though? Mabey I should just learn the sound without it.

I've learnt one or two, but I mainly practice the major scales. Figured I'd master that first before moving along.

There are some benefits to learning the scale w/o solfege and just by sound alone, but if you want to transcribe something, I'm guessing if you got the solfege down, you'd more or less be able to pen it to paper w/o actually having to touch an instrument.

Just my two cents ;)

do ray me far so la te do

Wow. This thread kicks ***. I have a lot to sort through, though, and it will probably take me a long time. Really helpful stuff, though. I wish I had a better music theory education. I never really paid much attention to it, though. I learned basic major scales and the intervals.

I better learn all my scales. I'm a trumpet player, and it will really help with creativity. I keep getting stuck on blues scales--mostly the basic C and G (Bb and F for other instruments). I need a lot of work.

[QUOTE=Firecracker]do ray me far so la te do[/QUOTE]



Ha, you spelled five of those wrong.

Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do

Hey if anyones interested i actually found a chart that has a solfeggio for every scale degree. its pretty interesting.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege[/URL]

looks like the "official" way to do the melodic minor is "Do Re Mé Fa Sol La Ti Do" where the only difference is in the third degree. and pretty subtle too.

looks like they have two ways for the natural minor:
The natural minor scale: Do Re Mé Fa Sol Le Te Do
The natural minor scale in a "fixed" system: La Ti Do Re Mi Fa Sol La

I guess i was taught in a fixed system. hahah, right. You gotta love wikipedia.

[QUOTE=JustWondering]well im just touching the surface of the melodic minor scale, and i would really appreciate some help.

1. is there a seperate or similar standard solfeggio for melodic minor scale, as there is for major scales? And if its not would it be bad to improvise something based on solfeggio from the major scales for instance:
La ti do re mi la ti do
------------(fa)--(la)-----

So what i began saying was La ti do re mi la ti La, on the way up because it at least prepared me for the correct interval step. and it worked real well. i just play it down without voicing anything....

If you get what i am saying......I learned the basic sound of the scale that way, but im not sure if that will conflict with me later learning the scales modulations. So should i keep voicing it that way in my head?

Also does anyone know the chords that are built on the tones of the melodic minor scale?[/QUOTE]

For melodic minor, the solfege that I was taught is as follows:

Ascending: Do Re Me Fa Sol La Ti Do
Descending: Do Te Le Sol Fa Me Re Do

I find that the melodic minor scale is probably the hardest scale to keep the correct intonation, at least for me it is. As soon as you sing that Me, you're thinking natural or harmonic minor, but I'm sure with some practice one could get it. The La Ti Do bit is good to keep in your head, I would even add the Sol. It has a very distinct sound when you're in the minor mode, so it'll help you recognize it better. I would try starting from the Do though, but knowing the scale starting from any syllable is never a bad thing. :p

Edit: Aww, I just saw your last post, oh well. :p

hey guys, im fairly new to jazz but i can grasp the basic concepts of how chords are built and the major scale and improvisation.

my question is:
i think that when soloing over a chord, you usually want to emphasize the notes in that chord, correct? if so, i have a second question to this, when should u play notes that sound (im having a hard to explaining this) odd but still "good" or as if it was on purpose, and how do u know which notes to play?

[QUOTE=Firecracker]Yeah in classical it is sufficiently easier, there may be such a larger orchestra (in some cases). But with Jazz yes, there's whole tonality of it and the instruments need using, the syncopation, i haven't actually heard much jazz which i like, but it is always a good oppertunity to be able to compose such a narrow/popular/tricky style.[/QUOTE]

You don't even realize how horribly wrong you are.

[QUOTE=smith_]hey guys, im fairly new to jazz but i can grasp the basic concepts of how chords are built and the major scale and improvisation.

my question is:
i think that when soloing over a chord, you usually want to emphasize the notes in that chord, correct? if so, i have a second question to this, when should u play notes that sound (im having a hard to explaining this) odd but still "good" or as if it was on purpose, and how do u know which notes to play?[/QUOTE]


Yes, you are correct when saying that you emphasise chord tones. As for your second question, I think what you are trying to ask is how to make playing "outside" of the chord changes sound good. The fact is, people like Michael Brecker who do this a lot are very good as selling it. Obviously, if you play a long accented Bb over a Cmaj7 chord its not going to sound that great, but doing things like playing an arpegio and moving it up in half steps will work and sound good as long as you play with confidence. The more you experiment with and practice it the better it will sound.

If any of that didn't make sense, please ask me to explain.

that does make sense.however, ive got another question, partly to do with my first.

my question is:
right now im working on a song with the following progresson:

Bbmaj7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Gm7 | C7 F7

Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebm7 | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7
Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebdim | Bb F7 | Bb6

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

Bbmaj7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Gm7 | C7 F7
Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebm7 | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7

It's kinda long sorry, but I was wondering what I should play over each chord (just maybe the first line of chords, I know it's tedious) and what would i play to make it sound more exotic, and possibly why. Sorry for being a bother...

I'll give some suggestion for the first line.
Notice there is no key change, it's all in Bb. When you have a simple
I VI II V progression (all with 7th degrees added) I recommend you get used to sort of thinking of the whole thing as Bb.
After a while you will be able to just think of the key of Bb and flow through the feel of the progression (without hitting any notes you dont want to) instead of thinking of the chords individually "2 beats of Bbmaj7, 2 beats of Gm7, 2 beats of Cm7 ..." Some people have trouble being creative when they start out because they try so hard to play exactly with these changes.
Sorry if you already know all of this.
And as for playing "out" notes one thing you can do in this case is experiment with playing an F7 altered scale over the Bb major scale (I'm still just referring to the first line). F7 altered scale - F. Gb. G#. A. B. Db. Eb. F
There is no right way to play "wrong" notes. It's all about experimenting with the sound of it.
You'll eventually know how you want to use this technique.
For example you may want to avoid hitting "out" notes over the the tonic chord, and you may want to only use "out" notes in staccato rather than holding them.

And Pianoplyr77's comments were very true

[QUOTE=Joseph India]I'll give some suggestion for the first line.
Notice there is no key change, it's all in Bb. When you have a simple
I VI II V progression (all with 7th degrees added) I recommend you get used to sort of thinking of the whole thing as Bb.
After a while you will be able to just think of the key of Bb and flow through the feel of the progression (without hitting any notes you dont want to) instead of thinking of the chords individually "2 beats of Bbmaj7, 2 beats of Gm7, 2 beats of Cm7 ..." Some people have trouble being creative when they start out because they try so hard to play exactly with these changes.
Sorry if you already know all of this.
And as for playing "out" notes one thing you can do in this case is experiment with playing an F7 altered scale over the Bb major scale (I'm still just referring to the first line). F7 altered scale - F. Gb. G#. A. B. Db. Eb. F
There is no right way to play "wrong" notes. It's all about experimenting with the sound of it.
You'll eventually know how you want to use this technique.
For example you may want to avoid hitting "out" notes over the the tonic chord, and you may want to only use "out" notes in staccato rather than holding them.

And Pianoplyr77's comments were very true[/QUOTE]

wow thanks a lot, i really appreciate the help. if you were wodnering, i recorded it and just soloed in Bb like u said, the recording is here: [url]http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=589302[/url]

is it wrong to not think too hard about the notes im playing whilst playing them? when i recorded this i just felt out the notes, and screwed up a bit but i think it turned out alright. i dont really know the notes that well at the moment, i just sort of know to emphasize the 7's and b7 when its applied and whatnot. so am i going in the wrong direction with this improv?

Sounds like you need ear training, and also to familiarise yourself with the progression. Just play the chords and sing an improvised melody over it. You got to be good at this before you can improvise good stuff on an instrument. I mean you don't need to be able to sing well but the ideas should fit y'know. Then you got to know what intervals sound like so that anything you imagine you can play without any trial and error.

smith
[QUOTE]
wow thanks a lot, i really appreciate the help. if you were wodnering, i recorded it and just soloed in Bb like u said, the recording is here: [url]http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=589302[/url]

is it wrong to not think too hard about the notes im playing whilst playing them? when i recorded this i just felt out the notes, and screwed up a bit but i think it turned out alright. i dont really know the notes that well at the moment, i just sort of know to emphasize the 7's and b7 when its applied and whatnot. so am i going in the wrong direction with this improv?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how to answer this...
You [I]should[/I] think about the notes ,and you should also think in intervals.
Like Tarquin said, you should play what's in your head. That is most important. Do what he said.

I didn't mean just play in Bb as if there were no changes at all. Just let your ideas flow more. For example: if you are just playing in Bb with no though of the changes, you might resolve a phrase on the tonic while the dominant (F7) chord is played, and that just doesn't fit. If you follow the changes and play what you hear in your mind, you would never think to resolve over a dominant like this.
Does that make sense?
Also, you dont want to get into a mindset/habit where you do something like hitting the 7ths a lot to get a certain effect. If you do that, you're not playing what sounds right in your head, but rather what looks right.
That being said, your recording was okay. Your rhythm shows promise.

[quote=thread]Minor 2nd – 1 and b2[/quote]

I love this combination.

[QUOTE=spastic;1887101]Here it is, folks: The OFFICIAL Jazz theory thread :D

This thread is for anything related to jazz theory, but DON'T post it elsewhere. Any questions you have go in here, and if you just want to add some info on it, it also goes in here. Have fun. . .[/QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]okey::chug:

been gettin in2 mahavishnu orchestra rocks so much!!!!

Yo guys, this cool site I found has some good links to theory websites and materials: [url]www.modaljazz.com[/url]

Dolphin

I cant wait to read this tomorrow its way to late to play my Bass becuase its around 12:30 am on a tuesday lol

Check this site out:

[url]http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory44.htm[/url]

Its basically the entire lesson for an online jazz course or someting. Looks very thorough.

Damn there's a lot of writing in this thread!

In my experience, it's really important to get your scales down, but at the end of the day, on the bandstand, it's your ear that's going to guide you.

Personally, I find it really useful to draw a BIG distinction between approaches to playing in practise and playing onstage: Practise is all about enlarging your vocabulary and playing is all about not thinking about that stuff: if it's in your language, it'll come out on its own.

In short, it's often really unconvincing to impose pre prepared harmonic or rhythmic features in a solo as opposed to simply following your ear.

The best analogy I can think of for this is if you learn a long word and try to use it to sound clever: everyone will know you're doing it, and you're fairly likely to use the word in an unneccesary context where you could have used something more concise and understandable HOWEVER, if that word sits comfortably in your vocabulary, it'll come out when it's needed and sound perfectly at home within the phrase without a second thought or a concious decision to use it.

Sunstitute 'long word' for 'harmonic or rhythmic technique' (yucky term though it is) and you come to how I think about my playing.

Sorry if I've covered repetitive ground here, I just skim read the thread.

[QUOTE=Pete Down I Go;14920552]Damn there's a lot of writing in this thread!

In my experience, it's really important to get your scales down, but at the end of the day, on the bandstand, it's your ear that's going to guide you.

Personally, I find it really useful to draw a BIG distinction between approaches to playing in practise and playing onstage: Practise is all about enlarging your vocabulary and playing is all about not thinking about that stuff: if it's in your language, it'll come out on its own.

In short, it's often really unconvincing to impose pre prepared harmonic or rhythmic features in a solo as opposed to simply following your ear.

The best analogy I can think of for this is if you learn a long word and try to use it to sound clever: everyone will know you're doing it, and you're fairly likely to use the word in an unneccesary context where you could have used something more concise and understandable HOWEVER, if that word sits comfortably in your vocabulary, it'll come out when it's needed and sound perfectly at home within the phrase without a second thought or a concious decision to use it.

Sunstitute 'long word' for 'harmonic or rhythmic technique' (yucky term though it is) and you come to how I think about my playing.

Sorry if I've covered repetitive ground here, I just skim read the thread.[/QUOTE]

really nice post man, thats exactly how i feel.

my guitar teacher has always said "you can learn and learn and learn but when it comes down to it you just gotta throw it all out the window and feel it"