i personally think, if you dontget this stuff, like i didnt, basically, keep improvise jam with someone who does, like a synth player, who can instruct with the chords, you should really know most of the chords first, and know a few scales, the pentonic and blues scale work fine for me, and then keep playing, ask them what progression it is, ask them what scale to use with the chords, ask them everything you can before you play the song, and although that is mostly just a crowd pleaser to start with, it really help you get a boost on understanding theory.

Any drum player in this jazz theory thing?
 

Hi guys, I consider myself a rookie in this jazz world

is there any drum player who can write some jazz theory for drums and percusion?

thnx

[QUOTE=oxo_cubes]could someone (maybe that pretentious guy near the start of the thread since he knows so much and is so helpful) explain tritone substitution and how it is used?
that would be great, thanks[/QUOTE]


Tritone substitution is usually used when reharmonizing a song or part of a song.

As you know, a dominant 7th chord is made up of the root (1), a major 3rd (3), a fifth (5), and a minor 7th (b7). The third and seventh are what makes this chord. Even if you leave out the root and fifth, it still sounds like a dominant chord, incomplete though the chord may be.

As you may have noticed, the 3 and b7 are a tritone apart. You should also note that the 3 and b7 of a dominant chord are the [i]same notes[/i] as another dominant chord, specifically, the dominant chord a tritone away.

For instance, the G7 chord tones are G(1), B(3), D(5), and F(b7). A tritone away is Db7, which contains Db(1), F(3), Ab(5), and B(b7). Notice that the B and F are the 3rd and 7th of both chords, although inverted.

Because the two most important notes, the 3rd and 7th, are the same in both chords, the two chords can be substituted for one another.


[b]If you didn't feel like reading all that, here is the basics of tritone substitution. Any dominant chord can be substituted for another dominant chord a tritone apart from the original chord.[/b]


Now, technically tritone subsitution can be used on any dominant chord. But of course, it does not always sound good. It sounds best if you a) [b]create a chromatic bass line[/b], or b) [b]make the melody more interesting[/b].

Tritone subsitution is often used in II-V-I's because it lends itself prefectly to creating a chromatic bass line. For example, take the II-V-I (in C, to keep it simple) Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7. using tritone substiution, you can replace the G7 with Db7. Now notice the basslines of all these notes: D-Db-C. A bit more modern sound.

Now on to making the melody more interesting. Take the chord progression Cmin7-F7-Bb7. Let's say that over the F7, you have the melody note G. This is the 9th of the F7 chord, a good note. If you want to make it more interesting, you could use tritone substitution and play B7. Now the melody note (G) is the #5 of the chord. Not only would you create a chromatic bass line, but you make the melody note more interesting.

(Note: some people might like the G to be the 9th, rather than the sharp 5th, which is fine. I'm just giving you an example.)


So to recap that long description: [b]Tritone subsitution is the substitution of a dominant chord with another dominant chord a tritone apart. To be used effectively, it should either create a chromatic bass line, or make the melody note more interesting.[/b]

Is tritone substitution only used for dominant chords or is it just more common?

Only dominant.

[QUOTE=spastic]Only dominant.[/QUOTE]


Ahh ok, thanks. :)

thanks alot for that-spastic-you genius

hahahaha what the crap! i fell for the this will help you crap... :(

you for got to mention what all the modes sound like (unless i missed it)
Although any scale can be made to sound like pretty much anything the following is true : major pentatonic can be made to sound chinese and celtic
the phyrigian locrian hungarian and (as someone said) harmonic minor scales all sound eastern
the minor pentatonic blues and bebop all sound basically wastern (jazzy blues classic rock) and although the ionian and aeolian scales are named after greek islands... they don't sound particularly greek because major and minor scales play a part everywhere

forgot.. not for got

^^use the edit feature. also u didnt really need to clarify, it wasnt exactly confusing

wait

theres one theing i dont understand

the edit feature is where?

=s!!

hmmmmmmmmmmm.....

can anyone post a tutorial for bass? i want to join jazz band at my school next year maybe, and actually knowing how to play jazz might help

Guitar theory obviously applies to bass, although when applied it will be used differently to create basslines using thirds of scales rather than chords, ie. a root to tonic to seventh, with transitions via. the third and possibly fourth and sixth. Although these notes are more dissonant sounding the listener kind of passes them over because they are a bridge to the emphasized notes.

The only times I have seen 'chords' used on bass are with triads or double stops... double stops tending to be octaves or root/tonic (fifth) notes, the simplest triads are usually major, minor or dominant using the root and either major or minor fifths and sevenths:

Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh

That's how theory is applied to bass in a nutshell, someone correct any mistakes I have made as I rushed this one. Ben.

[QUOTE=the_almighty_face]
Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh

That's how theory is applied to bass in a nutshell, someone correct any mistakes I have made as I rushed this one. Ben.[/QUOTE]

whatdo you mean, minor fifth, like a flat five?

[quote]Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh[/quote]

Fifths and Sevenths don't mean five half steps away and seven half steps away. And theres no such thing as a dominant triad with a fifth in it.

Wow, i am way behind
 

[QUOTE=BirdsOfFires]Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16.[/QUOTE]
Wow, I cant believe you guys are so young...thats amazing. But anyway I dont learn well by just reading, and I want to start playing some jazz (i am a bassist). Could any of u recomend any good jazz artists to me for my bass studies?

i second that wow, you guys are young. im pretty young too-16. ive been playing like a year-i picked it up quick and for the amount of time ive been playing i kinda kick ***. but im at a crossroad's at the momment. I would hate it if i ended up sounding like every other guitarist. i want to know do you need to know this stuff? im very creative and im good at going with the flow but i dont wanna learn all this stuff if its gonna take away any of my individuality. please help. thanks

The idea with theory (at least in my view) is to learn as much as possible so that you can go past those boundaries. They are only tools to help you be creative. People that only use theory can sound pretty boring, so the idea is to step beyond what you have learned encompasses. The only way to do that is to become very comfortable with what we have been showing you.

^ But sterility is always a risk, because there is a limit to how much you can be told to do and how much you should learn and develop on your own. By all means learn theory, but every step of the way you should be taking what you have learned and pushing it far beyond that, seeing what you as a player can do with the theory you know. The creative spark is very important.

how am i supposed to read this chord on a chord chart (what are it's characteristics)?

A 6/9 (6 over nine)

is it a 6 chord with a 9 with out a 7?

Correct, you will omit the 7, and will include the root, the third, the six and the nine. 6/9 chords can be used instead of dominant chords often, and before the dominant 7 became the staple of jazz, it was the 6.

[QUOTE=HaVIC5]Correct, you will omit the 7, and will include the root, the third, the six and the nine. 6/9 chords can be used instead of dominant chords often, and before the dominant 7 became the staple of jazz, it was the 6.[/QUOTE]

thanks man. :) no fifth?

i found the chord in a jaco book and i was like :confused:. he has some really crazy chord progressions.

check out these scales!
 

greetings all!
I have a jazz band for which i compose most of the music, and since im from the middle east, the influence of arabic music is huge in my tunes, i use Arabic scales that are not usualy used in western music, and end up with interesting original melodies and harmonies from combining the styles from the east and the west...
If you dont mind, i will share a couple of those scales, try them out!

I will present all the scales from the root A as follows:

1- Hijaz:
This is probably the most commonly recognised arabic scale in the west, it is almost identical to the minor harmonic scale, only the root of this scale is the fifth note on the minor harmonic scale, as follows:
Lower to higher:
A, Bd, C#, D, E, F, G, A

2- Nawa Athar:
I personaly love using this scale because of the hamonic possibilities it represents, the scale is identical to a minor scale in the first three chords, and then after that all hell breaks loose, try this out:
Lower to higher:
A, B, C, D#, E, F, G#, A

At any case, there are about 35 known arabic modes and scales, a few of which contain 1/4 tones, which are ofcourse not available on fretted instruments or the piano. if you find this interesting, check out this website :-www.maqamworld.com
By the way, maqam is arabic for scale or mode...
enjoy!
chears! :)

cool :) that definetly sounds interressting... i love exotic scales.

one scale i'm kind fond of is the Major Locrian, which i think is arabian too.
do you know this one? lower to higher:

A - B - C# - D - Eb - F - G - A

boog3ee... thanks for sharing man.

For your kindness as a user, I hope your band gets noticed and goes down in history as unique and brilliant. Face.

[...one scale i'm kind fond of is the Major Locrian, which i think is arabian too.]
This is surely an interesting scale or mode, but i highly doubt its Arabian, not to my knowledge at least...the interesting thing about it is that it doesnt contain a perfect Fifth note, makes it not very easy to deal with...
And Mr. Face! thank you very much! and its my pleasure!

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]thanks man. :) no fifth?

i found the chord in a jaco book and i was like :confused:. he has some really crazy chord progressions.[/QUOTE]
Fifths are unimportant to chord structure, unless they're altered somehow, like flatted or raised. You could include a fifth, but its really a weak note in the chord.

This reminds me of an arabic mode/scale used particularly in Iraq called (Lami), the interesting thing in this mode is that the fifth note is not a perfect fifth, its half a tone lower, like such:-

C - Db - Eb - F - Gb - Ab - Bb - C

What you will find interesting about playing around with this mode is how hard it is to accentuate the root as C without having to go back to it at the end of each musical sentence, you could find yourself suddenly transposing into C# major or F minor (Kurd mode)...it still interesting though, and has an extemely soulful and sad, even desperate, feel to it...
chears

That's the same as the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. The reason you transcribe into C# major is becase they contain the same notes.

[QUOTE=spastic]That's the same as the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. The reason you transcribe into C# major is becase they contain the same notes.[/QUOTE]

Ofcourse they contain the same notes, but they are not the same scale, A minor and C major sclaes contain the same notes too, but the difference is huge...
:)

My main point was that the Iraqi scale "Lami" that you were talking about is the same as the locrian mode. I know the difference between modes.

Good to see you get modded Zappa.


/goes back to lurking

[QUOTE=spastic]My main point was that the Iraqi scale "Lami" that you were talking about is the same as the locrian mode. I know the difference between modes.[/QUOTE]


But in the context of that "Lami" scale, Western diatonic modes are irrelevant. Playing a Locrian scale is like playing the seventh mode of a diatonic major scale. Playing a Lami scale, even though it's all the same notes and intervals, it's fundamentally different, because to successfully use a foreign scale such as the Lami, you have to completely forget about diatonic scales and modes.

In Iraqi/Arabic music, the Lami would be its own independent scale, and to truly adopt the Lami scale, you would also have to think of it as independent of any relative mode or Western scale.

is the eastern system of music based on the same principles? like staying in key? or is it free/ do what sounds good?

I posted something much like this in another thread, but I'll try my luck here.

Can somebody please respond with something I can understand? I read mainly tab, and I don't know my notes very well, so could someone just write out a jazz scale for me?

As well, I would appreciate it if somebody would supply me with just a basic little jazzy riff, you know just to get my juices flowing, I've been playing less than a year, so it would help if it were nice and simple.

Oh and can you explain "modes" to me please? What exactly are they? Scales or something?

Thanks much