Waste of the West - Livestock Grazing
 

[url]http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html[/url]
[url]http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/grazing/[/url]

Has anyone heard about this? From what I've read elsewhere apparently the west is extremely unproductive with its livestock, with the east far surpassing the west in production with far less land use. The public pays good money for the western grazers to just let cattle trample on land, rendering it infertile, and pollute with bovine emissions. On top of it all is this cowboy myth surrounding public lands grazers, you know, free spirited remnants of the old west. But, in reality they're actually just freeloading.

What do you guys think about this situation?

Hmm, interesting theory... cattly grazing to be end of america as we know it?

nay, cattle grazing to be wasteful and economically harmful, wasteof public lands

excellent discussion going here.

You know what would solve the problem? An end to public lands

lol.....

If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it

[QUOTE=Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it[/QUOTE]

That is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard.

Public property isn't owned by no one, it's owned by everyone. Were the feudal commons destroyed because no one cared about them, or did everyone take care of them and use them relatively sustainably?

[QUOTE=Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]If the lands were held privately, the owners would care more about how it was being treated. If something is public, it belongs to everyone. It therefore belongs to no one, and nobody cares about it[/QUOTE]
Osaka, Japan uses communal dipping bowls in restaurants and everyone respectively refrains from double dipping (except for the occasional troublemaker, of course).

Caring through ownership isn't a universality.

That's fantastic for the Japanese. I'm sure it's working well for them

But in the United States, public property is trashed constantly. Public restrooms are generally more disgusting than pay toilets. Public parks are full of litter. There's no incentive to keep it clean

[QUOTE=Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]That's fantastic for the Japanese. [B]I'm sure it's working well for them[/B]
But in the United States, public property is trashed constantly. Public restrooms are generally more disgusting than pay toilets. Public parks are full of litter. There's no incentive to keep it clean[/QUOTE]

thats funny because ...... lol idk

If you had your own grass, there would be more incentive to ensure that nobody spat on it because it's [I]yours[/I]

*spits on chris' grass*

[QUOTE=The Peaceful Warrior][url]http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter3.html[/url]
[url]http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/grazing/[/url]

Has anyone heard about this? From what I've read elsewhere apparently the west is extremely unproductive with its livestock, with the east far surpassing the west in production with far less land use. The public pays good money for the western grazers to just let cattle trample on land, rendering it infertile, and pollute with bovine emissions. On top of it all is this cowboy myth surrounding public lands grazers, you know, free spirited remnants of the old west. But, in reality they're actually just freeloading.

What do you guys think about this situation?[/QUOTE]

Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights?

[QUOTE=siva_chair]Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. [B]You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights[/B]?[/QUOTE]

say what?

[QUOTE=Steve Buscemi]say what?[/QUOTE]

There are many Eastern countries that have poor human and animal rights.

Look at Southeast Asia and China.

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]*spits on chris' grass*[/QUOTE]

*Shoots Knifeboy for damaging my property and potentially infecting my grass with hepatitis*

[QUOTE=Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]You know what would solve the problem? An end to public lands[/QUOTE]

Spot on man. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons"]Wikipedia: Tragedy of the Commons.[/URL]

[QUOTE=siva_chair]Yes, we could probably use far less land for cattle grazing and probably produce more, but animal rights groups would be on our asses like a bum on a ham sandwich. You do realize lots of Eastern countries have poor animal rights, not to mention human rights?[/QUOTE]

I think we've got them packed in as tightly as we can. The real issue here is meat production itself. Meat consumption parallels economic development, and not necessarily health.

Meat is terribly inefficient; cattle use 70% of US grain and 50% of US water. It'll take 8 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. An acre of spinach produces 26 times as much protein as an acre of grazing cattle. Etc.

It's much less resource intensive to eat non meat products, that's why developing countries do it.

[QUOTE=AKid2]I think we've got them packed in as tightly as we can. [/QUOTE]

Hardly.

[QUOTE]The real issue here is meat production itself. Meat consumption parallels economic development, and not necessarily health. [/QUOTE]

Well, meat is very good for you, so I would say it does have something to do with health.

[QUOTE]Meat is terribly inefficient;[/QUOTE]

No it isn't.

[QUOTE] cattle use 70% of US grain and 50% of US water. It'll take 8 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. An acre of spinach produces 26 times as much protein as an acre of grazing cattle. Etc.[/QUOTE]

Not sure about the grain statistic (even though I do know we export lots of our grain anyhow), but I do believe your water statistic is wrong. If I recall correctly, the largest uses of water are for field irrigation and thermoelectric power, not watering livestock. So actually, it is your fields that use more water than cattle.

[QUOTE]It's much less resource intensive to eat non meat products, that's why developing countries do it. [/QUOTE]

Good for them. I will keep eating meat because 1) I like it and 2) it is healthy for you.

Also, it actually kills less animals than farming.

Let's not forget that meat is yummy.

And also, everyone in this thread should read [i]Collapse[/i] by Jared Diamond.