[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]
Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?[/QUOTE]

The altered scale (a.k.a. pomeroy, a.k.a. Super Locrian) is the 7th mode of Melodic minor ("jazz minor.")

Consider its degrees:

1 b2 #2 3 b5 #5 b7 8 (This, believe it or not, IS the correct way to notate this scale. 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7, 8 is completely inappropriate for this scale, and I'll explain later).

Super Locrian is appropriate for any and all dominant chords OR altered dominant chords (dominant chords must have a major triad and a b7).

The altered scale is most suitable over altered chords. It has a b9, #9, b5, #5, so use G altered scale over a G altered chord.

The most common melodic substitution is Ab melodic minor over a G altered chord. Why? Because it is the 2nd mode of G altered, and G altered is the 7th mode of melodic minor.

So, given a G7 chord, I'd mix up G altered and G Mixo to grasp those tones you're looking for. Modern jazz... I hope you don't mean smooth jazz?

--------

Off topic:

The altered scale's degrees. If we want to follow the scale formula "rules," wouldn't be have to have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 kind of thing when naming degrees? No. Most people are inclined to write: 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7, 8. Well, guess what? b4 has no unique function as an interval. WHich menas that it doesn't make much sense to notate the scale that way (however easy it may be to do).

So why this way: 1, b2, #2, 3, b5, #5, b7, 8? Well, the altered scale is played over altered dominant chords, right? And altered dominant chords have these b9's, #9s, b5s, and #5's we've been talking about, right? So it's only appropriate to name the degrees as such. PLUS, dominant chords (altered or not) have a major third. Not a b4.

[QUOTE=PeterBudd]It seems that you must be schooled? I have been playing jazz for 45 years. I never have time to think of what scale to play over which chord. You can learn all the theory you want, but it won't help you play jazz. Most of the guitarists that I know or knew. Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Howard roberts all played from feel. The best way is to take one model scale. The dorian scale is probably the best scale to use. Try playing the a dorian against the following chords. Ami7 D7 Gma7, and you will be suprised what you can come up with. playing the G scale starting with A is the dorian for those not familier with scales. Learn other peoples solos is one of the best way to learn jazz.[/QUOTE]

I can't say that you've been playing jazz "wrong" all these years, because that defeats its purpose, but chord following for budding jazz musicians is a NECESSITY. Joe Pass, Wes Motgomery, Miles, Coltrane, Pat Metheny, John McLaughlin, Django, Charlie Christian, Scott Henderson, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker , Cannonball, Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans, Winton Kelly, Dave Brubeck, these artists' styles were DEFINED by the attention payed to the harmonic structure!

I can't see how you've been playing jazz, learning other solos, for 45 years and you have not noticed any attention payed to the chord changes at all? That seems impossible to me, sorry.

The exception to this is modal jazz, which involves very basicand rare chord changes, and allows a soloist to come with many different scales over one or even two chords throughout a song (popular examples include Milestones and Impressions). But, IMO, an artist who uses A Dorian throughout an entire song or solo, and uses one scale per song for his whole career is seriously lacking in ideas, no matter how goo his phrasing.

Jazz melodic soloing involves four things: 1. Arpeggios 2. Chromatics 3. Melodic substitutions 4. Coresponding scales

What scales are used over the E7#9 chord?

[QUOTE=Tarquin1986]What scales are used over the E7#9 chord?[/QUOTE]

well, since it's a dominant chord, you have many choices. the #9 isn't that big of a deal, just think of it as saying that the #9 is in the chord, too. for the chord, use of mixolydian, whole tone, diminished, major, or minor can all be made. the dominant 7th chord leaves much to the imagination and can be said to be the most "free" chord in jazz. if you don't know what some of the chords i listed are made up of, just make a post saying so and i'd be glad to help you out :thumb: as well as many others on this forum i'm sure would be.

[quote]wow, you guys are young[/quote]
I'm 12. Some 16-year-old came up to me and said "I wish I could improvise as well as you," after the first gig I'd ever played in. But I play mainly blues, not jazz. I'm trying to learn jazz. And it's hard...

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]Lydian in jazz is played almost exclusively over maj7#11 chords.

Look at the scale degree formula and the chord formula:

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

maj7#11: 1 3 5 7 9 #11

The #11 and #4 are identiacal. Lydian has a perfect fifth, the most common chord it's played over has a perfect fifth, there's nothing to worry about with the 5th. Like all three major modes, Lydian has a major triad. Don't see the #4 as a fifth of any kind. See it as a #4. This means that Lydian should be avoided over chords with a 4 or 11 in them. Not a p5 or #11.


Because maj7#11 chords aren't extremely common (they pop up here and there) here's the best way to use a Lydian-esque mode in jazz:

Take a G dominant chord (G7, G9, whatever). The best (most sensible) scale to employ over this chord is G Mixolydian. However, you can make a 10x more interesting sound using the Mixolydian scale a tritone up (Db Mixo). However, there's one problem: the p4 in Db Mixolydian (F#) will clash horribly with the G7 chord. So, we can raise this 4 to a #4 to make this a Lydian scale. This is actually called "Lydian Dominant" because it still has a b7 (remember, "dominant" means a major triad and a b7, which this scale has). This also happens to be the 4th mode of Melodic minor.

That's the most common Lydian melodic substitution.[/QUOTE]


wait, no i didnt mean major sharp 11 chords (sorry). i meant "what do you play over a chord that has a root, major third, and flat fifth?

thanks for that explanation anyways, at least i learned something.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]wait, no i didnt mean major sharp 11 chords (sorry). i meant "what do you play over a chord that has a root, major third, and flat fifth?

thanks for that explanation anyways, at least i learned something.[/QUOTE]

over a "7, b5" chord you could use many things - again, because it's a dominant 7 chord. you could use the diminished scale or the whole tone scale over it...give that a shot.

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]well, since it's a dominant chord, you have many choices. the #9 isn't that big of a deal, just think of it as saying that the #9 is in the chord, too. for the chord, use of mixolydian, [b]whole tone[/b], diminished, major, or minor can all be made. the dominant 7th chord leaves much to the imagination and can be said to be the most "free" chord in jazz. if you don't know what some of the chords i listed are made up of, just make a post saying so and i'd be glad to help you out :thumb: as well as many others on this forum i'm sure would be.[/QUOTE]

Whole tone? The E Whole Tone scale over E7#9? Tere's no p5 or #2 for that matter in Whole tone, I would reserve WT for chords with a b5 or #5 alteration (especially #5). Augmented chords' parent scale is said to be whole tone. Some good dissonance could be delivered, but not much controlled dissonance.

The Major scale... I'm not a picky one, but the D# will clash when used as the leading tone of the E major scale with any E dominant chord. E bebop, would be better, because the D# will be a passing tone instead.

Other minor scales that I would recommend suggesting to someone who's not familiar with these territories is E Dorian or E minor Bebop (m bebop especially). That or F Melodic minor.

Try what you want to, question poser, but I recommend:

1. E altered (E - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - E )
2. E Mixolydian
3. B minor bebop
4. E dominant bebop
5. F melodic minor (E altered is a mode of that scale)
6. E blues scale (with added major third is especially god for dominant chords)

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]Whole tone? The E Whole Tone scale over E7#9? Tere's no p5 or #2 for that matter in Whole tone, I would reserve WT for chords with a b5 or #5 alteration (especially #5). Augmented chords' parent scale is said to be whole tone. Some good dissonance could be delivered, but not much controlled dissonance.

The Major scale... I'm not a picky one, but the D# will clash when used as the leading tone of the E major scale with any E dominant chord. E bebop, would be better, because the D# will be a passing tone instead.

Other minor scales that I would recommend suggesting to someone who's not familiar with these territories is E Dorian or E minor Bebop (m bebop especially). That or F Melodic minor.

Try what you want to, question poser, but I recommend:

1. E altered (E - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - E )
2. E Mixolydian
3. B minor bebop
4. E dominant bebop
5. F melodic minor (E altered is a mode of that scale)
6. E blues scale (with added major third is especially god for dominant chords)[/QUOTE]

ever heard of going outside the changes, moron?

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]ever heard of going outside the changes, moron?[/QUOTE]
Ummm, how does giving correct information make him/her a moron?

[QUOTE=G&L RF]Ummm, how does giving correct information make him/her a moron?[/QUOTE]

it doesn't. rudely attempting correct me about information that i've given correctly makes him a moron. and who asked you?

Sorry. I thought speaking out of turn or something on the internet was ok...Could you call on me next time I raise my hand?

Besides, rhcpcure's correction makes sense to me...

[QUOTE=G&L RF]Sorry. I thought speaking out of turn or something on the internet was ok...Could you call on me next time I raise my hand?

Besides, rhcpcure's correction makes sense to me...[/QUOTE]

call on you? what are you, gay? and if you actually sit in your room and raise your hand when you have something to say on the internet, then i don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sorry for you. playing out of the changes creates interesting results - a fact that perhaps he overlooked?

Oh yeah, that was sarcasm....

[QUOTE=G&L RF]Oh yeah, that was sarcasm....[/QUOTE]

as was mine, jackass. god, you're bad at this!

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]it doesn't. rudely attempting correct me about information that i've given correctly makes him a moron. and who asked you?[/QUOTE]

You think that that was rude? Jesus Christ, you're going to get your *** kicked one day. You're a dumbass. He asked what scales he could apply OVER this chord, not what scales he could apply to clash horribly wrong with this chord, moron. You know nothing about jazz theory or jazz in general for that matter. Sit down and serve a time out.

Seriously, why would you recommend a scale with high, BAD and [U]unmoderated[/U] dissonance when played over this chord such as whole tone?

EDIT: On another note, lol haven't you realized that you're always wrong? Why do you continue to post here?

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]You think that that was rude? Jesus Christ, you're going to get your *** kicked one day. You're a dumbass. He asked what scales he could apply OVER this chord, not what scales he could apply to clash horribly wrong with this chord, moron. You know nothing about jazz theory or jazz in general for that matter. Sit down and serve a time out.

Seriously, why would you recommend a scale with high, BAD and [U]unmoderated[/U] dissonance when played over this chord such as whole tone?

EDIT: On another note, lol haven't you realized that you're always wrong? Why do you continue to post here?[/QUOTE]

i sensed some sarcasm in your typing, yes. why don't you let me worry about holding my own and go back to your lonely little room? if you're so uptight about theory and what scales land EXACTLY on the chord tones and are afraid to go a bit out of the changes, then your solos are going to suck.that information, for your information, is some information i learned from one of jerry coker's books. why would he, a widely known music educator/player that knows WAY more than you, write about it if it's wrong? and who the **** says "serve a time out"? you sound like a little bitch to me. you wanna hear bad out of changes playing? you listen to tearyan and his group on this forum the Aeolian Effect. THAT is bad out of changes playing - it's playing that doesn't even make sense (although, it is a beginner's playing). going out of the changes is common in jazz - especially today. and when else have i been wrong on this forum? i'd seriously like to know, because i don't give wrong information to people when they ask for help. so **** you and your "i know everything, i'm so cool, i jack off to theory" attitude, because i makes you look like a little bitch. no, as a matter of fact, it makes you look like a big bitch. just a big giant bitch.

rat pack lives

C Phrygian

C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

My teacher was showing me a new arpeggio, but he did so right after introducing me to the Phrygian mode. I've already had my own personal experience with the modes in what I've taught myself, but this was going along with his lesson plans.

He showed me a C Major7b5 arpeggio (chord) and I noticed its similar tonality to Phrygian mode. He said "good ear, that's the ii chord of Bb Phrygian." This isn't part of this week's lesson, but it kind of got me thinking. I would've thought the ii chord would have been C Major7. Why is it C M7-5?

This brings me to another question, what would the I chord be? I think it'd be a plain old Bb Minor7, but it doesn't sound the way I expect it to.

Any thoughts?

In the Phrygian scale, the second chord would actually be major/major7th, so perhaps you misheard your teacher? The (normally) major7th that is the IV chord is now half diminished/min7b5. The I of Phrygian would be (with 1 - 3 - 5 - 7) just a min7th chord, but in extensions, it could turn into a min7b9 or min7b13 with other changes (Phrygian, as you probably know, has b2 b3 b6 b7).


Personally, when working with modes coming from an Ionian scale, I would use also C Major (Ionian) and its modes, since you won't have any sharps or flats at first. Though comparing C Major to C Phrygian would give you a similar gist, I suppose.




[If I've mistook any of this, feel free to correct me. I'm tired, and got up early]

I definitely didn't misunderstand my teacher because he writes the things I have to work on through the week down in a book, and the arpeggio was definitely the Maj7-5.

Someone in the Guitar Forum told me that while the major7 chord would work, it'd be better to use the maj7-5 because of the ii-I resolution in Phrygian? It made sense to me, but was he right?

Well, in jazz terms, it should ultimately be a ii - V - I ending (or something near that, for people that like to substitute chords and add in others :p), in which case you would go, lets say in E Phrygian, Fmaj7 - Bmin7b5 - Emin7. Or C Phrygian, where it then becomes Dbmaj7 - Gmin7b5 - Cmin7. In either case, the strength of the V to the I would be basically the equivalent of your ii to I, since you're using a half diminished chord in the V, which would lead back to a min7.

But, in all honesty, I have never heard of a "maj7-5/maj7b5" (I assume that they are equivalent, and I'm not talking off about something different, right?). I'd be interested to read about it, though in that since I would think it'd be more like maj7#11, since the 5th in Western music is very strong against the tonic, so I'm not sure you would necessarily get that right out of a scale, though maybe from modulation..

Yeah, maj7b5 is what I'm talking about. I'd never heard of all these chords until Scott McGill gave them to me as arpeggios I must learn. The first one that I saw but hadn't seen before was a minor/maj7. If you can't figure that out, it'd simply be like C Eb G B.

He posts like free daily theory tidbits on his site. I've never really explored much of it since half of it is outdated anyway.

[url]http://www.scottmcgill.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3] if you're so uptight about theory and what scales land EXACTLY on the chord tones and are afraid to go a bit out of the changes, [/QUOTE]

Stop right there. Douche, you're completely skewing this. I know more about soloing over and out of a chord context than you could ever hope to, but you were WRONG. Just... wrong to encourage whole tone on a beginner jazz soloist. You were wrong. And now you think that I'm some anti-freedom-in-soloing guy, when I've gathered more experience and have better and MORE melodic ideas than you've ever created (which is more than likely none).

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3] then your solos are going to suck.[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a challenge. Dare we post recordings?

Yeah, actually, I'd like to hear a recording of your soloing. Post it within 24 hours and I'll do the same, and we'll see whose solo is going to suck.

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3] that information, for your information, is some information i learned from one of jerry coker's books. why would he, a widely known music educator/player that knows WAY more than you, write about it if it's wrong?[/QUOTE]

A. Show me the exact quote, book.
B. You're wrong anyways to encourage a scale that is removed from the 7#9 chord. For fu[b][/b]ck's sake, READ THIS: He asked for scales that work EFFECTIVELY over 7#9 chords for someone that obviously has begginner phrasing. You reccomend a scale (whole tone) that will be complete SH[b][/b]IT when played with beginner's phrasing. See, dumbass?


[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]and who the **** says "serve a time out"? you sound like a little bitch to me.[/QUOTE]

Wow, someone has bad reception of sarcasm. It was a twist on your getting so pissed off about the other poster saying "Raise my hand." Obviously, it worked and you have proved your idiocy.


[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]and when else have i been wrong on this forum? i'd seriously like to know, because i don't give wrong information to people when they ask for help. [/QUOTE]

Yes, you ****ing do. I've already SHOWN you evidence BEFORE the whole tone/major scale inaccuracy. I'll continue throughout my stay on this forum to do the same, because you have to be a jerk when your ego is stepped on (and when you're clearly wrong).

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]so **** you and your "i know everything, i'm so cool, i jack off to theory" attitude
[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Case in point, your arguement has no basis. I don't know everything, but I'll always know more than you.

"jack of to theory"... Yeah, well we'll just see who has the better recording. Promise to shut the **** up after that? Good then. Then we'll see who's more theoretically inclined and who's more practically inclined (I've already owned you theoretically).


EDIT: Hm, looks like most of this forum thinks that you're a moron (by reading your posts). You are truly a sad man. W/e, I'll ignore you as soon as you get your **** recording up here.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]Stop right there. Douche, you're completely skewing this. I know more about soloing over and out of a chord context than you could ever hope to, but you were WRONG. Just... wrong to encourage whole tone on a beginner jazz soloist. You were wrong.[/QUOTE]


why is it wrong to answer a simple question? he asked what would be used effectively, as you said, over the chord, and i answered him correctly. there's nothing wrong with encouraging experimentation. who knows? maybe he'll use it perfectly the first time he tries - assuming, of course, that we're using precision of theory and not creativity in its whole.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]And now you think that I'm some anti-freedom-in-soloing guy, when I've gathered more experience and have better and MORE melodic ideas than you've ever created (which is more than likely none). [/QUOTE]

i never once said that you gathered less experience than me. you must be ion college. i said you'd gathered less experience than Jerry Coker - but just for the record. anyway, you probably have gathered more experience and melodic ideas than i have mostly because of the fact that i'm in high school. i haven't even taken a theory class yet - although i'm assigned to a college theory class next year. this does NOT, however, exclude me from anything - especially when i post correct replies. now zappa has, unfortunately, taken this freedom from me, and i will have my revenge...oh yes....i [I]will[/I] have my revenge...


[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]That sounds like a challenge. Dare we post recordings?

Yeah, actually, I'd like to hear a recording of your soloing. Post it within 24 hours and I'll do the same, and we'll see whose solo is going to suck. [/QUOTE]

first of all, i had no intention of a challenge. but that is mostly because of this fact (which i have stated before in another post) : i have ONE recording of myself on tape. one. i've already posted the site on this forum in another (i don't know what you call it) topic(?) from a few years ago. well, now that i think of it, i do have another recording, but it's from middle school and is on a cassette tape, so that does no good.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]
A. Show me the exact quote, book.
B. You're wrong anyways to encourage a scale that is removed from the 7#9 chord. For fu[b][/b]ck's sake, READ THIS: He asked for scales that work EFFECTIVELY over 7#9 chords for someone that obviously has begginner phrasing. You reccomend a scale (whole tone) that will be complete SH[b][/b]IT when played with beginner's phrasing. See, dumbass?
[/QUOTE]

how the hell am i supposed to show it to you? wanna take a ride to my house?
i think the book was called "jazz improvising" or "improvising jazz" or something.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]
Wow, someone has bad reception of sarcasm. It was a twist on your getting so pissed off about the other poster saying "Raise my hand." Obviously, it worked and you have proved your idiocy. [/QUOTE]

i have a bad reception of sarcasm? buddy, my reply was sarcasm, too. i wasn't even mad. that's called "sarcastic anger", and is a method used by my best friend, sean. he does it well, i might add...anyway, your "raise my hand" thing was a bad attempt at sarcasm and i thought i'd point it out, exposing [I]your[/I] idiocy

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]
Yes, you ****ing do. I've already SHOWN you evidence BEFORE the whole tone/major scale inaccuracy. I'll continue throughout my stay on this forum to do the same, because you have to be a jerk when your ego is stepped on (and when you're clearly wrong). [/QUOTE]

i must've missed it...don't know what else to say...if you want to dedicate your life to trying to prove me wrong, then be my guest. i've helped many with what i know, but ****ing zappa is a dick and can't handle a little ONLINE fighting. because he's a ****. just a big fat ****.

i'd now like to take a break and sing another song dedicated to zappa - whom i've heard is the so-called "leader" of this forum.

zappa's a bitch, he's a big big bitch.
zappa's a bitch, he's a big big bitch.
if there's one thing that's a bigger bitch than zappa,
i'd like to know what it is, because zappa is one great, big, giant bitch.
**** you, zappa.


[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]Yeah. Case in point, your arguement has no basis. I don't know everything, but I'll always know more than you. [/QUOTE]

well, if you're as old as i think you are, then you're probably right. but again, this wasn't about who knows more than who. this was about your rude (or at least, what i thought was rude) comment against my recommendation.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]"jack off to theory"... Yeah, well we'll just see who has the better recording. Promise to shut the **** up after that? Good then. Then we'll see who's more theoretically inclined and who's more practically inclined (I've already owned you theoretically).[/QUOTE]

i'll ignore that because i've explained all of it already.


[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]EDIT: Hm, looks like most of this forum thinks that you're a moron (by reading your posts). You are truly a sad man. W/e, I'll ignore you as soon as you get your **** recording up here.[/QUOTE]

no no, not moron, ***-hole (hyphenated for censored purposes so you know what i said). and i don't give a flying **** what these people think. they're the exact people that i'm rebelling against - well, most anyway. i've found a few exceptions. i can't believe that nobody understands what i'm talking about. this doesn't apply to college as much as high school, though. although i'm sure it still does apply to college in some way, according to what my lesson teacher says.

bravo, rhcpcure2826. i didn't expect such a remark from a music major, honestly. your post brings hope into the world of musicians, and my posts have been more about attitude than anything - i think you'll understand what i'm talking about, unless that was all an act, because i noticed you had some of my attitude in your reply from my other posts...but yes, i do have some hope for music majors now. i still doubt anyone understands what i'm talking about, though. but just so we clear things up, i never did say that i was an almighty sax player. i know i'm not. and anyone who does think they are is not going to make it. there's always room for improvement. you probably are a better soloist than i am, i'm admitting that. but that's not a fair argument considering the difference in experience. that would be like me comparing you to michael brecker. it's just not in the same area. honestly, though, you're another that has proven my theory about musicians wrong and for that i applaude you. then again, there are always people like zappa that come around a **** everything up...
**** you, zappa.

rat pack lives

Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?

[QUOTE=pianoplyr77]Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?[/QUOTE]

you could try playing a solo only using chromatics...that might help. i don't really know of any ways to train for using chromaticism other than playing the chromatic scale over and over again or doing what i said.

[QUOTE=pianoplyr77]Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?[/QUOTE]

There are coutless ways to add chromaticism to your playing, but for the sake of your own style you'd be best off figuring out ways to do it through your own experimentation. The following are just some basic concepts to elaborate on:


Take a scale and add passing tones to it. eg. The minor pentatonic becomes the blues scale, the standard diatonics become bebop scales => an inside passage becomes something more exotic sounding..


Accidentals: Instead of a note that would be diatonicly correct, or relevant to the individual chord, play a semitone above or below that note. Generally speaking, the original note will be implied, while the phrase is saying something completely differant.

...
Though there is a theoretical explanation for even the most 'outside' notes, that explanation will often be the last thing on the musician's mind as he plays it. Essentially, don't think too hard about it.

what does teh term "ALT" mean when applied to chords and scales? is it when you alter a scale to suit your purposes?

thanks genxcide

Chromaticism
 

Try this over a modal vamp: play a lick in they key, then move it u by a minor 3rd without changing any notes to make it fit the key. Move it up another minor 3rd and another until you are playing the lick you started with an octave up. Alternatively try it with major thirds.

Also try playing a lick in the key (eg a C major lick over a Cmajor vamp) followed by one in a really clashing key (eg a Locrian lick over the Cmajor vamp). Keep it up for while and make it sort of like you are trading licks with yourself.