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Iscariot 05-31-2006 12:10 PM

American Immigration Reform
 
Blah blah blah another thread about illegal immigration. If you don't want to discuss it, don't post in here.

There has been a lot of discussion about the morality of immigration reform in the US, but not a lot of proposed solutions to improve the current situation. Obviously there isn't much support for building a Berlin wall between the United States and Mexico, and support for the increased military presence on the border seems to be up in the air as well.

Personally, I think that enforcing immigration laws at this stage of the game will do nothing but instigate a conflict between the United States and Mexican governments, but that may just be the best thing for our country at this point. A major concern in removing illegal immigrants from our soil is the impact it will have on the economy and the fact that it's heavily protested by the legal/illegal Mexican community at large.

However, another militaristic conflict between the United States and Mexico, while seemingly unrealistic, has been long coming. I personally think that we should go all in with our plans for increased border aggression and if they want to fight back, then so be it. It would be beneficial to our economy and, if a territorial dispute were added to the conflict, we could greatly improve the living conditions south of the border to eliminate the need for Mexicans to jump the border into the US.

ITT: Discuss your own ideas for the best method of immigration reform and how you would like to see them applied.

lfantwister 05-31-2006 12:28 PM

It's really important that we don't grant illegals that are already here amnesty. For one thing, that would just be a greater incentive for more to move to the US. But more importantly they are our source of cheap, under the table, labor which helps to make goods more competiively priced.

[QUOTE]However, another militaristic conflict between the United States and Mexico, while seemingly unrealistic, has been long coming. I personally think that we should go all in with our plans for increased border aggression and if they want to fight back, then so be it. It would be beneficial to our economy and, if a territorial dispute were added to the conflict, we could greatly improve the living conditions south of the border to eliminate the need for Mexicans to jump the border into the US.[/QUOTE]

I think it would be a lot harder to do that than it looks. We'd need a helluva lot more troops, and a lot more money to back up this plan. So maybe it should wait a little while. We've seen how hard it is to rebuild Iraq--it will be really hard to build Mexico (if thats what youre suggesting, im not sure).

I don't understand why we would want to annex or rebuild Mexico or whatever. What do they have that we want? It would really be a waste of money and supplies etc. It's like picking on the weak corrupt neighbor just for the hell of it. Which usually I wouldnt object to too much except that theres really no clearcut benefit for us.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=lfantwister]It's really important that we don't grant illegals that are already here amnesty. For one thing, that would just be a greater incentive for more to move to the US. But more importantly they are our source of cheap, under the table, labor which helps to make goods more competiively priced.[/quote]

Then we need economic reform as well. It's disheartening to think that the crutch of our economy is illegal immigrant labor.

[quote]I think it would be a lot harder to do that than it looks. We'd need a helluva lot more troops, and a lot more money to back up this plan. So maybe it should wait a little while. We've seen how hard it is to rebuild Iraq--it will be really hard to build Mexico (if thats what youre suggesting, im not sure).[/quote]

I'm suggesting more of a renovation than a rebuilding. The Mexican president doesn't give two s[size=2]hit[/size]s about his own country and that's the core of the reason for illegal immigration's very existence. A militaristic conflict would force him to unite his willingly divided country and, in the aftermath, maintain the unity to prevent future aggression.

[quote]I don't understand why we would want to annex or rebuild Mexico or whatever. What do they have that we want? It would really be a waste of money and supplies etc. It's like picking on the weak corrupt neighbor just for the hell of it. Which usually I wouldnt object to too much except that theres really no clearcut benefit for us.[/QUOTE]

The benefit is the fact that by seperating ourselves from this dependency on foreign labor, we'd shift towards a more independent economy. Also, not to stereotype, but it would have a major impact on the level of gang related violence in latino weighted communities.

The Real El Capitano 05-31-2006 01:54 PM

A river of gasoline on fire. Then people like me that live an hour and a half from the border can go down and have a pic-nic and watch all the Mexicans try to jump through it.

O, and I'm down with the military conflict idea. Also, I'm tired of people saying "Immigrant Rights" and stuff, when they fail to realizse that THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. THEY ARE NOT TAX PAYING CITIZENS THEREFORE THEIR VOICE HAS NO SWAY IN OUR COUNCIL.

Danish 05-31-2006 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=The Real El Capitano]A river of gasoline on fire. Then people like me that live an hour and a half from the border can go down and have a pic-nic and watch all the Mexicans try to jump through it.

O, and I'm down with the military conflict idea. Also, I'm tired of people saying "Immigrant Rights" and stuff, when they fail to realizse that THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. THEY ARE NOT TAX PAYING CITIZENS THEREFORE THEIR VOICE HAS NO SWAY IN OUR COUNCIL.[/QUOTE]

People have rights simply by virtue of being people.

Otherside 05-31-2006 02:00 PM

[QUOTE=The Real El Capitano] THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS. THEY ARE NOT TAX PAYING CITIZENS THEREFORE THEIR VOICE HAS NO SWAY IN OUR COUNCIL.[/QUOTE]

If you really think that they pay no taxes than you are one of the more idiotic posters around, and that's saying something.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:16 PM

[QUOTE=Danish]People have rights simply by virtue of being people.[/QUOTE]

US constitutional rights are reserved for legal US citizens.

Danish 05-31-2006 02:32 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]US constitutional rights are reserved for legal US citizens.[/QUOTE]

UN Charter of Human Rights.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:33 PM

[QUOTE=Spat Out Plath]You need welfare reform, not immigration reform.[/QUOTE]

We need America reform.

[quote=Danish]UN Charter of Human Rights.[/quote]

Territorial jurisdiction.

Otherside 05-31-2006 02:34 PM

That's true, but immigration is certainly not near the top of that reform list.

DBoons Ghost 05-31-2006 02:41 PM

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Yeah right.

These words are what makes America great. I should say, these words made America great. Now?

I suppose one could blame the falsehoods surrounding the "American Dream" for what they now deem a problem. It's not immigration. It's the bureacracy surrounding it. All of a sudden what's good for the Goose is no longer good for the Gander.

Americans are the world's dregs turned into greedy monsters who would choose isolationism over creating the world our forefathers dreamed of. Even that's a lie. We are the poor tired huddlesd masses.. We've always been. My grandparents struggled with citizenship same as anyone. I stand by the sides of those immigrants who are now being scorn for trying to find a better life.

Rant maybe. I don't have answers. It makes me sick though.

SubtleDagger 05-31-2006 02:44 PM

America's always had problems, even in its inception. Of course, they didn't show through as much in the beginning because the founding fathers were more passionate abou their principles, but they've always been there. We've never been an even near-perfect country.

Just in response to the contrast in immigration views over time.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=DBoon's Ghost]"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Yeah right.

These words are what makes America great. I should say, these words made America great. Now?

I suppose one could blame the falsehoods surrounding the "American Dream" for what they now deem a problem. It's not immigration. It's the bureacracy surrounding it. All of a sudden what's good for the Goose is no longer good for the Gander.

Americans are the world's dregs turned into greedy monsters who would choose isolationism over creating the world our forefathers dreamed of. Even that's a lie. We are the poor tired huddlesd masses.. We've always been. My grandparents struggled with citizenship same as anyone. I stand by the sides of those immigrants who are now being scorn for trying to find a better life.

Rant maybe. I don't have answers. It makes me sick though.[/QUOTE]

There is a big, BIG difference between legal immigrants and freeloaders. Your grandparents didn't come to this country with the idea that they would sneak in, have a few kids and then stay for the long haul without ever earning their citizenship. Those Mexicans that come to the US illegally aren't making a better life for themselves. They're sticking to low-income, Mexican communities, they aren't learning how to speak English and they're leeching off the welfare system to survive. They aren't going out and even attempting to earn their citizenship and then when they're told to go home, they throw a temper tantrum. Defend them all you want, but your views are a little convoluted on this issue.

Danish 05-31-2006 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]Territorial jurisdiction.[/QUOTE]

I realize that the UN doesn't have the ability to enforce, well, anything.

I was responding to a post where the poster implied that illegal immigrants are unworthy of the rights that official citizens enjoy. What I was getting at is that rights are more than what was written on a piece of paper 200 years ago. The spirit of human rights theory is that all people, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, political stripe, gender, and sexual orientation, are people who deserve basic rights simply by virtue of being people, not necessarily citizens. Perhaps it doesn't work like that in reality, but it ought to. The concept of universal human rights should be brought into the discourse on immigration, but it doesn't. The media is very quick to paint illegal immigrants as "the other", something less than an "American."

SubtleDagger 05-31-2006 02:47 PM

[QUOTE=Danish]I realize that the UN doesn't have the ability to enforce, well, anything.

I was responding to a post where the poster implied that illegal immigrants are unworthy of the rights that official citizens enjoy. What I was getting at is that rights are more than what was written on a piece of paper 200 years ago. The spirit of human rights theory is that all people, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, political stripe, gender, and sexual orientation, are people who deserve basic rights simply by virtue of being people, not necessarily citizens. Perhaps it doesn't work like that in reality, but it ought to. The concept of universal human rights should be brought into the discourse on immigration, but it doesn't. The media is very quick to paint illegal immigrants as "the other", something less than an "American."[/QUOTE]
I agree with this to some extent.

Why should Americans have any more given rights than the rest of the world? They are no better or worse as people.

Danish 05-31-2006 02:47 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]There is a big, BIG difference between legal immigrants and freeloaders. Your grandparents didn't come to this country with the idea that they would sneak in, have a few kids and then stay for the long haul without ever earning their citizenship. Those Mexicans that come to the US illegally aren't making a better life for themselves. They're sticking to low-income, Mexican communities, they aren't learning how to speak English and they're leeching off the welfare system to survive. They aren't going out and even attempting to earn their citizenship and then when they're told to go home, they throw a temper tantrum. Defend them all you want, but your views are a little convoluted on this issue.[/QUOTE]

[b]PROVE IT[/b], ethnocentrist!

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:47 PM

[QUOTE=Danish]I realize that the UN doesn't have the ability to enforce, well, anything.

I was responding to a post where the poster implied that illegal immigrants are unworthy of the rights that official citizens enjoy. What I was getting at is that rights are more than what was written on a piece of paper 200 years ago. The spirit of human rights theory is that all people, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, political stripe, gender, and sexual orientation, are people who deserve basic rights simply by virtue of being people, not necessarily citizens. Perhaps it doesn't work like that in reality, but it ought to. The concept of universal human rights should be brought into the discourse on immigration, but it doesn't. The media is very quick to paint illegal immigrants as "the other", something less than an "American."[/QUOTE]

I won't disagree with you on the topic of that being a good idea in theory, but when you throw in economics, crime, distribution of labor, etc.. it can never be applied.

[quote=Danish]ethnocentrist![/quote]

Where in my entire discussion have I shown any ethnocentricism? I don't have any problem with Mexicans if they're legal and willing to integrate to the country they chose to move to.

The Peaceful Warrior 05-31-2006 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]I agree with this to some extent.

Why should Americans have any more given rights than the rest of the world? They are no better or worse as people.[/QUOTE]

We're not better than islamic extemists???

Danish 05-31-2006 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=DBoon's Ghost]"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Yeah right.

These words are what makes America great. I should say, these words made America great. Now?

I suppose one could blame the falsehoods surrounding the "American Dream" for what they now deem a problem. It's not immigration. It's the bureacracy surrounding it. All of a sudden what's good for the Goose is no longer good for the Gander.

Americans are the world's dregs turned into greedy monsters who would choose isolationism over creating the world our forefathers dreamed of. Even that's a lie. We are the poor tired huddlesd masses.. We've always been. My grandparents struggled with citizenship same as anyone. I stand by the sides of those immigrants who are now being scorn for trying to find a better life.

Rant maybe. I don't have answers. It makes me sick though.[/QUOTE]

I think the moons ARE aligned with Venus, because, believe it or not, I couldn't agree with you more.

I'd just like to add that immigrants' struggles are workers' struggles.

SubtleDagger 05-31-2006 02:50 PM

[QUOTE=The Peaceful Warrior]We're not better than islamic extemists???[/QUOTE]
No, we just disagree.

It's that type of thinking that leads to ignorance.

Danish 05-31-2006 02:50 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]I won't disagree with you on the topic of that being a good idea in theory, but when you throw in economics, crime, distribution of labor, etc.. it can never be applied.[/QUOTE]

Of course not! Capitalism gives no room for any considerations other than growing profits and maintaining power structures. Instead of solidarity with your fellow workers that happen to be Mexican in origin, you're in favour of making their extremely difficult lives even harder. Have you ever asked yourself why?

If we actually cared about the well-being of humanity, immigration wouldn't even be an issue.

Steve Buscemi 05-31-2006 02:51 PM

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]No, we just disagree.

It's that type of thinking that leads to ignorance.[/QUOTE]

But would'nt you say that anyone whose objective revolves around the extermination of others' free will is say, less?

SubtleDagger 05-31-2006 02:52 PM

[QUOTE=Steve Buscemi]But would'nt you say that anyone whose objective revolves around the extermination of others' free will is say, less?[/QUOTE]
Less what?

I don't understand what you're asking.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]Less what?

I don't understand what you're asking.[/QUOTE]

He's asking if you honestly believe that someone in say, the US or the UK (just examples) is equal to a member of a totalitarian extremist organization who's only goal is to eradicate the 'infidels' at any cost.

Otherside 05-31-2006 02:55 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]He's asking if you honestly believe that someone in say, the US or the UK (just examples) is equal to a member of a totalitarian extremist organization who's only goal is to eradicate the 'infidels' at any cost.[/QUOTE]

Or that if someone with opposing views to the 'cities on the hills" are worse people because they don't agree with us.


I seriously find it to be a conflicting question.

Danish 05-31-2006 02:56 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]He's asking if you honestly believe that someone in say, the US or the UK (just examples) is equal to a member of a totalitarian extremist organization who's only goal is to eradicate the 'infidels' at any cost.[/QUOTE]

I think you need to take a course in International Relations.

Iscariot 05-31-2006 02:56 PM

[QUOTE=Otherside]Or that if someone with opposing views to the 'cities on the hills" are worse people because they don't agree with us.


I seriously find it to be a conflicting question.[/QUOTE]

So do I, actually.

[quote=Danish]I think you need to take a course in International Relations.[/quote]

I think you need to take a course in reality.

Steve Buscemi 05-31-2006 02:57 PM

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger][B]Less[/B] what?

I don't understand what you're asking.[/QUOTE]

Undeserving of equal rights.

Otherside 05-31-2006 02:57 PM

No not until they've done some kind of crime. They can think whatever they want, and it's none of our business tbqh.

SubtleDagger 05-31-2006 02:58 PM

[QUOTE=Iscariot]He's asking if you honestly believe that someone in say, the US or the UK (just examples) is equal to a member of a totalitarian extremist organization who's only goal is to eradicate the 'infidels' at any cost.[/QUOTE]
In essence, yes. As I said, both groups have conflicting interests, but both at least deserve the simplest of human rights in my opinion. Regardless of their beliefs they are still the same as human beings.

I am for the most part a pacifist though; I believe in self-defense to some extent, but this is all my perspective here.


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