aj4a just has bad quality.

Yeah. I'd like it more if it had decent production.

AJFA isn't boring, Blackened is the best opener for the band, either live or on an album, EotB has to be the most intelligent song, One is totally better than Sanitarium and more agressive than Fade to Black,TLITD is as epic as Call of Ktulu and Orion. The album is the most technical work Metallica has done.

The production?, it wasn't crap , turning the guitars loud, the weird sound of drums doesn't affect the music imo.

And the total lack of bass...well in past albums the bass wasn't real audible.(except for the obvious songs)

[QUOTE=Kyle]Ahhh man, that's totally the wrong way to look at it. Why must Rob be in competition with Cliff, those are clearly not his intentions, all he wants to do is play his bass and make some great music. Sure it's a big space to fill, but hes neccesarilly trying to fill it, Rob can add a sound to Metallica that they have never had.[/QUOTE]

Yea but was a songwriter, not just a bassist. He inspired rest of the guys to write better music. So basically it would be good if Rob does the same thing just different style. I mean if all he does is play bass we won't really notice any change except maybe a little better basslines. He doesn't need to be better than Cliff, just needs to inspire guys more. Jason imo, never inspired them nowhere as much as Cliff did.

[QUOTE=Josh]when maiden tried to change direction, it nearly killed the band, as Adrian left, then Bruce. fortunately, that change gave them a massive kick up the a$s, so maybe the way St. Anger was recieved by fans will have hinted to 'tallica that the fans liked the way their music was before.
i know a lot of people don't like Load/Reload, but IMO there's some awesome tracks on those albums, such as Prince Charming, Outlaw Torn, Unforgiven II, Aint My Bitch, so personally i'd be happy if they just went back to that style.[/QUOTE]

True, but Maiden never lost steve harris. If they loose him, the band won't write the same music. Now I know cliff wasn't the main composer, but he was probably the second. Iron Maiden did kinda change too, just not to a completely different genre like metallica. But see you like load/reload, so does steve harris I think, but most metallica fans don't.

[QUOTE=Flower Dance]Who was Metallica's sould after Cliff's death? The only person I think it could've been is James.[/QUOTE]

Yea it was James. He wrote riffs, lyrics, did vocals, some solos, etc.. If metallica loose James, there will be no metallica.

Also AJFA had some cliff material used too, so it wasn't completely cliff-less. :smoke:

[QUOTE=heavy metal kid]

The production?, it wasn't crap , turning the guitars loud, the weird sound of drums doesn't affect the music imo.

[/QUOTE]
exactly i love the sound on it. its amazin, unique and generally brilliant IMO. Blackened is such a great song.


[QUOTE=PepsiMetal]But see you like load/reload, so does steve harris I think, but most metallica fans don't. [/QUOTE]
that's not true.
[QUOTE=PepsiMetal]Also AJFA had some cliff material used too, so it wasn't completely cliff-less. :smoke:[/QUOTE]

cliffless. cool word. allthough it has an unfortunate meaning.

[QUOTE=PepsiMetal]Yea but was a songwriter, not just a bassist. He inspired rest of the guys to write better music. So basically it would be good if Rob does the same thing just different style. I mean if all he does is play bass we won't really notice any change except maybe a little better basslines. He doesn't need to be better than Cliff, just needs to inspire guys more. Jason imo, never inspired them nowhere as much as Cliff did.[/QUOTE]

Yea but that was because the rest of the guys (maybe except krik) never really respected Jason as the musician he is, or has a person for that matter.

The songs are incredibly long, and very repetitive. I get sooooooo
bored with every single one by the time they are nearing the midpoint, because they don't go anywhere. James voice lacks passion, it just feels sort of flat and boring. Also, His lyrics are full of silly metaphors, and don't seem very inspired. Kirk's solos aren't as good as anything earlier, he just seems intent on wanking his guitar too death, and the riffs in the songs are less inventive and exciting as well. Basically, I find it to be Metallica disenchanted, a completely uninspired outing from a band past their prime.
AJFA was the beginning of the end of Metallica.

95% of Jason's ideas were shot down by James & Lars. Which sort of explains why we only got 3 songs out of him over a 15 year period. With Flotsam & Jetsams Doomsday Deciever he had a writing credict on every song near enough to my knowledge.

Umm i think the lyrics are more direct than past albums, if you hear the lyrics of Master of Puppets are clearly full of metaphors or mindless stuff like Battery and Damage Inc.
The riffs are more complex than past albums, sure the lenght is problem in songs like The Frayed ends of Sanity and AJFA.
The voice is way better than MOP, RTL and KEA and James sounds likes his in anger, i think it was in this album when James voice tone became unique.

I have to agree with you, 95% of Jason's idea were shot down, the man is way talented and not even that, they never played anything from him, except Blackened but that was because the song was freaking good.

[QUOTE=PepsiMetal]Yea but was a songwriter, not just a bassist. He inspired rest of the guys to write better music. So basically it would be good if Rob does the same thing just different style. I mean if all he does is play bass we won't really notice any change except maybe a little better basslines. He doesn't need to be better than Cliff, just needs to inspire guys more. Jason imo, never inspired them nowhere as much as Cliff did.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I think I agree when you put it like that. But it's not really down to Rob, Lars and James will decide how much imput he has on the songwriting, hopefully they will really let him express himself.

[QUOTE=timmySmi]The songs are incredibly long, and very repetitive. I get sooooooo
bored with every single one by the time they are nearing the midpoint, because they don't go anywhere. James voice lacks passion, it just feels sort of flat and boring. Also, His lyrics are full of silly metaphors, and don't seem very inspired. Kirk's solos aren't as good as anything earlier, he just seems intent on wanking his guitar too death, and the riffs in the songs are less inventive and exciting as well. Basically, I find it to be Metallica disenchanted, a completely uninspired outing from a band past their prime.
AJFA was the beginning of the end of Metallica.[/QUOTE]
i disagree entirely. james' voice doesn't lack passion. i think your ears are misted by the power in which his voice invested in the ajfa vocals. i love it. to live is to die cannot be sanely said to be "less inventive/exiting" IMO. justice, the song, is full of what i hear to be basic but grindingly brutal riffs, and, in the vocals, with some [I]clever[/I] metaphors aswell. the Blackened riffs own. and Kirks solos are different from those from the previous albums, but brilliant. ajfa was a step away from their thrash, and this is what i think you are objecting to. while being a step away from thrash, it was a far step from Black Album. Thereon, many fans exclude their music because they are pure heavymetalheads, with no ability to have flexability in their listening. Thereon, indeed, the albums are just as metallica as ever, despite not being thrash.

one must accept that they had lost an important band member, which is bound to have an impact on the band's play. for me, it was a change that tragically turned them from their previous era, but on the other hand turned to an equally talented bunch of songs.

[QUOTE=timmySmi]95% of Jason's ideas were shot down by James & Lars.[/QUOTE]
that's because they were early inspirations of Jason's solo work, Echobrain, which when listened to is blatently not metallica. Lars, in the hands of whom by power is held the fate of the bands genre, identified this and would not let it happen. Jason, when allowed to have an input with more than 50% of his overall ideas, would have lead metallica away from their true sound, IMO. more so than the departure of Cliff.

[QUOTE=Kyle]Yeah, I think I agree when you put it like that. But it's not really down to Rob, Lars and James will decide how much imput he has on the songwriting, hopefully they will really let him express himself.[/QUOTE]

Yea here to, but as long as he doesnt go on an all out jazz trip, keep it metal people lol, and when i mean metal, old metal not new or nu or neu metal or whatever the f*ck its called. Stop listening to the Linkin Park...

[QUOTE=Rattlehead] that's because they were early inspirations of Jason's solo work, Echobrain, which when listened to is blatently not metallica. Lars, in the hands of whom by power is held the fate of the bands genre, identified this and would not let it happen. Jason, when allowed to have an input with more than 50% of his overall ideas, would have lead metallica away from their true sound. more so than the departure of Cliff.[/QUOTE]

because Anger was just so similar to MoP...anyway, if you listen to jasons new Voivod stuff, its shows that Jason could easily write classic metallica stuff.

[QUOTE=E_man]because Anger was just so similar to MoP.[/QUOTE]
thats not what i said. they developed, yes, but over time. if at the time of Black album they had allowed Jason to input his music metallica would have been radically changed.

[QUOTE=E_man]...anyway, if you listen to jasons new Voivod stuff, its shows that Jason could easily write classic metallica stuff.[/QUOTE]
that was later on, and wasn't shot down by lars or james... i think.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]
that was later on, and wasn't shot down by lars or james... i think.[/QUOTE]

What about Blackened, it has Newsted name on it, i think that demostrates that Jason could write Metal back in then. Jason was underappreciated by Metallica.

[QUOTE=heavy metal kid]What about Blackened, it has Newsted name on it, i think that demostrates that Jason could write Metal back in then.[/QUOTE]you what? i dont understand.:confused: [QUOTE=heavy metal kid]Jason was underappreciated by Metallica.[/QUOTE]
absolutely. and james likes to call it "roughening him up". i dissaprove of this, but no disrespect to him.

[QUOTE=heavy metal kid]What about Blackened, it has Newsted name on it, i think that demostrates that Jason could write Metal back in then. Jason was underappreciated by Metallica.[/QUOTE]
oh you mean Black Album? yeah, thats what timmySmi was saying. that is one of the albums where Newsteads ideas were majorly "shot down" by james/lars, and thats why Black Album does [B]not[/B] have jasons name on it.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]you what? i dont understand.:confused:
[/QUOTE]

You are saying that Jason couldn't write riffs during AJFA and the Black album because his sound wasn't directed to Metallica, they were more to Echobrain.

I said that's not true, Jason could easily write riffs to Metallica, Blackened is an example.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]oh you mean Black Album? yeah, thats what timmySmi was saying. that is one of the albums where Newsteads ideas were majorly "shot down" by james/lars, and thats why Black Album does [B]not[/B] have jasons name on it.[/QUOTE]

My Friend of Misery...never played live.

[QUOTE=heavy metal kid]You are saying that Jason couldn't write riffs during AJFA and the Black album because his sound wasn't directed to Metallica, they were more to Echobrain.
I said that's not true, Jason could easily write riffs to Metallica, Blackened is an example.[/quote]no, im saying that the [I]majority[/I] of his stuff wasn't suitable.
[I]and since when did Jason write Blackened???[/I] are you sure you don't mean Black Album?



[QUOTE=heavy metal kid]My Friend of Misery...never played live.[/QUOTE] a rare but fair comment. this is an exception, i think. but then alot of people hate MFOM. i dont, which contradicts what i am saying. but since this song is an exception(IMO) i dont mind. i stand by my love for MFOM.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]
[I]and since when did Jason write Blackened???[/I] are you sure you don't mean Black Album?
[/QUOTE]

Blackened: Hetfield/Ulrich/[B]Newsted[/B]

check for yourself [url]http://www.metallica.com/Media/Albums/albums.asp?album_id=5[/url]

[I]there is no bass guitar in Blackened!?!?!?!?[/I]

must be a mistake.


or any other ajfa song for that matter.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead][I]there is no bass guitar in Blackened!?!?!?!?[/I]
or any other ajfa song for that matter.[/QUOTE]

Sure there is, the bass is only turned down, not bass-less, besides it does have bass live.

yeah, made up for live performances so that jason/rob didn't look lame and stupid standing around not playing anything.

ok, so the bass is turned down. [I]to zero decibels!!![/I] i cannot hear anything but loud bassy guitar in ajfa. because that's all there is. trust.

and anyway, why would he write for blackened and nothing else on ajfa??? has to be a mistake on that site, man.

Everyone's reasoning for forming opinions is valid, because opinions cannot be wrong. My ears are not misted I just feel his vocal approach is that to of watching paint dry. I don't know if your implying Iam a Metalhead with no acute musical hearing or just saying that to validate your view. But just because I have a disliking for the album does'nt mean I have no ability to have flexability. I don't feel the need to repeat myself but I dislike AJFA for the reasons stated on my last post. I doubt they did'nt like his ideas because they were Ecobrain orintated thats just Jason being musical well minded, of course he could write heavy riffs i.e Flotsam & Jetsam, Vovoid. But I agree on the fact with you that Metallica at the time where looking for a new sound and thats what probably led to Newsteds ideas beingshot away. Even when Metallica were going through there transformation into the Load,Reload era it was Jason that was against all of it, He was colaberating with bands like Sepultura. Iam sure if anyone was capable of writing a good metal riff is was Jason.

um, no, i was just saying that people often dont like a change from their thrash because of their inflexability. and so they exclude their later albums. i wasn't saying that was you, because you weren't objecting to their turning from thrash. you were objecting to ajfa. but i dont think james' vocals were passionless, they were full of power, which may have clouded any sense of passion for you. IMO, in a good way.

the vovoid stuff was later, so lars/james did not hear any early influences of it. and so they were judging his echobrain stuff, which was not at that stage suitable for metallica's sound. (In my opinion, and, apparently, Lars'.) Hence the "shooting-down" of his ideas.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]um, no, i was just saying that people often dont like a change from their thrash because of their inflexability. and so they exclude their later albums. i wasn't saying that was you, because you weren't objecting to their turning from thrash. you were objecting to ajfa. but i dont think james' vocals were passionless, they were full of power, which may have clouded any sense of passion for you. IMO, in a good way.[/QUOTE]

Nothing clouded my sense of passion I just did'nt like his tone plain and simple.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]
the vovoid stuff was later, so lars/james did not hear any early influences of it. and so they were judging his echobrain stuff, which was not at that stage suitable for metallica's sound. (In my opinion, and, apparently, Lars'.) Hence the "shooting-down" of his ideas.[/QUOTE]

Echobrain was after Jason left Iam talking from the prespective of his career as a whole In Metallica. As E_Man said surely Blackened and his work with Sepultura and Flotsam & Jestsam prove he was quite capable of writing heavy stuff. But also to be fair Newsted has stated he has given ideas to songs that he has not being given credict for aswell.

[QUOTE=timmySmi]Nothing clouded my sense of passion I just did'nt like his tone plain and simple.[/QUOTE]fair enough.



[QUOTE=timmySmi]Echobrain was after Jason left Iam talking from the prespective of his career as a whole In Metallica. As E_Man said surely Blackened and his work with Sepultura and Flotsam & Jestsam prove he was quite capable of writing heavy stuff. But also to be fair Newsted has stated he has given ideas to songs that he has not being given credict for aswell.[/QUOTE]but the issue was the basis upon which lars/james shot down his ideas. and that basis was that they weren't fully aware of the above mentioned potential. they had thus far merely heard his early echobrain influences, which, as i have said many a time, Lars did not see fit for metallica's genre at that time. and i agree. i respect jasons heavy metal ability, his heavy metal ability is not the point.

[QUOTE=timmySmi]I just did'nt like his tone plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
do you mean you "didn't like his tone, plain and simple," or just that you "didn't like his tone when it was plain and simple"?

[QUOTE=hetfieldfan86]I think u guys r both wrong....u sometimes can't expect a band to write amazing stuff after 7 studioe albums and rehab...even though i do like some fo the riffs off "..Anger." Bottom line 'tallica sounds better live than most bands their age and older....and still kick some serious a** live...if the new album is half decent it'll be better than most crap these days....period! ROCK ON!!!!![/QUOTE]

I really would love it if you could speel.

[QUOTE]yeah, made up for live performances so that jason/rob didn't look lame and stupid standing around not playing anything.

ok, so the bass is turned down. to zero decibels!!! i cannot hear anything but loud bassy guitar in ajfa. because that's all there is. trust.

and anyway, why would he write for blackened and nothing else on ajfa??? has to be a mistake on that site, man.[/QUOTE]

The Blackened intro would not be cool at all if you couldn't hear the bass, so they turned that up. But yes, that's about all the bass you can hear on the album. In my opinion, Rob is too loud live. Sometimes it makes the songs sound sloppy.

Jason left because he had different directions he wanted to take his music and Metallica didn't like the way it was going. James got mad that Jason was in a side project so that he could express himself. James wanted Metallica to be perfect, so Jason left.

absolutely. but who plays the bass on the studio blackened? i thought newstead came in the Black Album. and Cliff died before ajfa, so its fitting that i cant hear any bass guitar. i still am doubtful that there actually is any bass guitar in it.

people have said before on this thread that there isn't, aswell.

hmmm...

It was most definitely Newsted on Blackened.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]do you mean you "didn't like his tone, plain and simple," or just that you "didn't like his tone when it was plain and simple"?[/QUOTE]
Jesus christ, I did'nt like his tone plain and simple as in I just did'nt like it I have already given my reason to why I did'nt in a previous post. Iam also very sure they where aware of his songwriting ability. Before joining he released Doomsday Deciever with F&J and he near enough wrote that whole album. So before letting him join I think they where fully aware of his capabilitys as a songwriter. It was all down to Lars & James direction they where taking musicially.

Jason wrote the main riff to Blackened. His bass is almost non audioable due to a combination of amature production on behalf of lars & James and and his equipment which he used. Steinberger bass along with a gallien krueger amp which Jason said just wasn't happening. Plus some speculate that is was because he was the newkid on the block.

calm down mate, i wasn't mad or anything, i was just not sure about your wording. just curious!

and as i have already said, i don't doubt jason's ability in bass playing. so you won't need to tell me for the umpteenth time about how brilliant a musician he is.:rolleyes:

you are probably right about him being the new kid on the block. so much so that his bass is literally inaudible. did he play in any other ajfa songs? *doubtful*

and jasons ideas were shot down because they didn't suit metallica. so its justified. <---- appropriate word usage :lol:

He recorded in every song on AJFA, it's just turned down so much that you can't hear him.

that's bloody stupid.

jeesus, he must have been pissed after that.

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]that's bloody stupid.

jeesus, he must have been pissed after that.[/QUOTE]

Yeh it is but I suppose it was just a way of dealing with burton's death.
that's what hetfield said about it anyway, that they weren't really ready for another bassist to replace their friend

[QUOTE=Rattlehead]that's bloody stupid.

jeesus, he must have been pissed after that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, apparently he's still not over it or something.

It's quite a bummer they did that too because Newsted's bass playing is always fun to listen to.

He's not over it? You're thinking of Mustaine. :p

Seriously though, if he was that mad at them for mixing him out wouldn't he have left the band a long time ago?

yeah he just took it on the nose in hope for increased future respect, it would seem. i suppose he got a few inros, GTF, MFOM, KN... not too good, but better than absolutely inaudible bass playing throughout an entire album.... i still can't get over that.

[QUOTE=PepsiMetal]He's not over it? You're thinking of Mustaine. :p
[/QUOTE]
Mustaine confuses me. One minute he's over it, the next he's moaning again.

hell yes. 666th post, baby!

Metallica had to be the place, they were my first metal band. may this thread thrive untill the final Apocalyptic Lockdown on MX.

haha, and Flower dance is 15,000 posts ahead of me exactly, lol.