[QUOTE=thedeadwalk!]And how much credit can you give the spanking versus the numerous other times you beat it into your kid's head with words, and what they learn through cognitive development naturally.[/QUOTE]
How do the words really mean when a child has no concept of what right and wrong really is but how to avoid pain. Either way a child will misbehave and they will probably repeat there mistake regardless of how you disciplined them. Its never ok to beat a child, but a quick spanking will get through to a young child who hasn't deveploped cogntive skills yet much faster then saying something like "no, you shouldn't do that," or "thats bad"

[QUOTE]Your idea bases strongly on the Chicago school of criminology which suggests crime is committed because they want to and should punishment be swift, certain, and severe, they will not do it again. I think looking at the criminal justice system takes care of that argument.[/QUOTE]

Its based more on if you spank the child long after he or she missed behaved they won't know why the are being spanked. The samething applies to non-physcal discipline aswell. like i stated before the A child will most likely misbehave again regardless of the type of punishment.

Side note: I don't plan on spanking my children when I have them.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]How do the words really mean when a child has no concept of what right and wrong really is but how to avoid pain. Either way a child will misbehave and they will probably repeat there mistake regardless of how you disciplined them. Its never ok to beat a child, but a quick spanking will get through to a young child who hasn't deveploped cogntive skills yet much faster then saying something like "no, you shouldn't do that," or "thats bad"[/QUOTE]
I understand parents don't want their kids being "slow" but really, do you want to hit your child to speed up a process? I also understand taking your child out of dangerous situations, but are you going to stop your kid from running out in the street just to bend him over and spank him? Why not hold his hand while you're walking? An explanation's not always going to work, neither is a spanking. Patience will always help, however.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]Its based more on if you spank the child long after he or she missed behaved they won't know why the are being spanked. The samething applies to non-physcal discipline aswell. like i stated before the A child will most likely misbehave again regardless of the type of punishment.[/QUOTE]
Maybe to you, but that train of thought is founded in the Chicago school which is hardly used today. Unfortunately, this theory works on people using a "rational calculator" which doesn't quite fan out for adults, let alone children who are in the process of developing these notions while they're being spanked.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]How do the words really mean when a child has no concept of what right and wrong really is but how to avoid pain. Either way a child will misbehave and they will probably repeat there mistake regardless of how you disciplined them. [B] Its never ok to beat a child, but a quick spanking will get through to a young child who hasn't deveploped cogntive skills yet much faster then saying something like "no, you shouldn't do that," or "thats bad"[/B]



Its based more on if you spank the child long after he or she missed behaved they won't know why the are being spanked. The samething applies to non-physcal discipline aswell. like i stated before the A child will most likely misbehave again regardless of the type of punishment.

Side note: I don't plan on spanking my children when I have them.[/QUOTE]

Actually a child's cognitive skills can pick up "I want you to do [B]this[/B]" instead of "Don't do [B]that[/B]," and that is the biggest mistake parents make when shaping the behavior of their child.

[QUOTE=thedeadwalk!]I understand parents don't want their kids being "slow" but really, do you want to hit your child to speed up a process? I also understand taking your child out of dangerous situations, but are you going to stop your kid from running out in the street just to bend him over and spank him? Why not hold his hand while you're walking? An explanation's not always going to work, neither is a spanking. Patience will always help, however.[/QUOTE]
I actually prefer the method of time out, and taking away privileges. I am just saying I can see the other side of the arguement. Its not about being slow either. I mean why use a form of discipline if your child can't understand it. Patience is needed as we both agree. I don't mean that hitting your child hard and repeatedly is acceptable, but [B]one[/B] spanking on the butt of moderate force is acceptable

[QUOTE][B]Maybe to you[/B], but that train of thought is founded in the Chicago school which is hardly used today. Unfortunately, this theory works on people using a "rational calculator" which doesn't quite fan out for adults, let alone children who are in the process of developing these notions while they're being spanked.[/QUOTE]That is something that is taught in psychology. If you are punished as a [B]child[/B] its only effective to adminster the punishment soon after the bad behavior. That way the child understands why they are recieving the punishment. Its not about hitting them as hard yous can and expecting to immediately stop. Any form of punishment is useless if the child doesn't understand whats its for. An example would say the kid breaks a window, and the mother simply says "wait till your father gets home" few hours later dad gets home and punishes the child. The child is no to react the to punishment in way a parents wants because of the fact the mishbehavior happen a while ago, so the child has somewhat forgot about what they have done.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]I actually prefer the method of time out, and taking away privileges. I am just saying I can see the other side of the arguement. Its not about being slow either. I mean why use a form of discipline if your child can't understand it.[/quote]
The other side of the argument is all about a child's perceived "slowness" as a catalyst for spanking. Since the child does not pick up on verbal or non-violent cues at a certain point in time, the parent resorts to spanking.

I'm not advocating using anything a child wouldn't understand.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]That is something that is taught in psychology. If you are punished as a [B]child[/B] its only effective to adminster the punishment soon after the bad behavior. That way the child understands why they are recieving the punishment. Its not about hitting them as hard yous can and expecting to immediately stop. Any form of punishment is useless if the child doesn't understand whats its for. An example would say the kid breaks a window, and the mother simply says "wait till your father gets home" few hours later dad gets home and punishes the child. The child is no to react the to punishment in way a parents wants because of the fact the mishbehavior happen a while ago, so the child has somewhat forgot about what they have done.[/QUOTE]
I understand that, but it was pioneered first with the Chicago school of criminology. Psychology is one of the newest sciences around (at least as we know it today).

But my meaning in bringing in criminology anyway, is to use it as an example of its ineffectives to curb crime (broken windows policies), let alone as necessary to stop misbahavior (through physical means) in children.

[QUOTE=thedeadwalk!]The other side of the argument is all about a child's perceived "slowness" as a catalyst for spanking. Since the child does not pick up on verbal or non-violent cues at a certain point in time, the parent resorts to spanking.

I'm not advocating using anything a child wouldn't understand.[/QUOTE]
What do you suggest as an alternative in the time period of the childs life?
[QUOTE]
I understand that, but it was pioneered first with the Chicago school of criminology. Psychology is one of the newest sciences around (at least as we know it today).[/QUOTE]
I geuss I don't understand what you are getting at. I what I am kind of sensing is that you think the time of punishment doesn't affect its effectivness.

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]What do you suggest as an alternative in the time period of the childs life?[/quote]
What do you mean by "child's life?" You and I don't have any disagreement with swift discipline after misbehavior, and from what I can tell not on the use of spanking either, though you understand the other side (as do I, but not its usefulness).

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica]I geuss I don't understand what you are getting at. I what I am kind of sensing is that you think the time of punishment doesn't affect its effectivness.[/QUOTE]
Not that it has no affect but that swiftness and severity aren't always positive determinants.

From my last edit:

[quote=thedeadwalk!]But my meaning in bringing in criminology anyway, is to use it as an example of its ineffectives to curb crime (broken windows policies), let alone as necessary to stop misbahavior (through physical means) in children.[/quote]

[QUOTE=thedeadwalk!]What do you mean by "child's life?" You and I don't have any disagreement with swift discipline after misbehavior, and from what I can tell not on the use of spanking either, though you understand the other side (as do I, but not its usefulness). [/QUOTE]
I mean when the child can't really discern right from wrong and certaintly not an explanation of why what they did was wrong.

Ok I get what you're saying now... well I'm off to bed later.

Spanking did work for me. Yes, I was scared to act out because of it. But it wasn't intimidation, because I knew it was out of love. I was old enough to comprehend that. Sometimes the threat of taking away my Nintendo wasn't enough, or I would act out further when it was taken away. This all stopped when I grew to be around 8.

My brother in law however. He'd get closed fist punches to the face simply for saying "not right now" when he was told to do something. When he was 12, he fought back, and the fight ensued for a very long time. But he wasn't abused per se, because I know his family well, and it's a very, very loving family. He'll tell you it worked. It shaped him into what he is today, and I he doesn't have any emotional problems.

[QUOTE=The Tway]this thread isn't about abuse

and no I never said anything even remotely like that[/QUOTE]

Normal spanking doesn't do anything to child's mentality. You and a few others were talking about mentality issues, which is cause of abuse not occasional spanking.

everything that ever happens to you influences your 'mentality'

and I never brought up any mentality issues. you seem to be pretty dumb, maybe you'll learn a bit if I smack the **** out of you, huh?

[QUOTE]The child is no to react the to punishment in way a parents wants because of the fact the mishbehavior happen a while ago, so the child has somewhat forgot about what they have done.
[/QUOTE]

maybe if they're like a drunk two-year-old or something

[QUOTE=The Tway]and I never brought up any mentality issues. you seem to be pretty dumb, maybe you'll learn a bit if I smack the **** out of you, huh?[/QUOTE]

I forgot I'm arguing with a person who thinks music isn't subjective. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]I forgot I'm arguing with a person who thinks music isn't subjective.[/QUOTE]
oh i forgot I'm agruing with a person who not only brings up irrelevant disscussions from the pit in PWNI, but is also too dense to see that I was obviously parodying zero in that thread.

[QUOTE=The Tway]oh i forgot I'm agruing with a person who not only brings up irrelevant disscussions from the pit in PWNI, but is also too dense to see that I was obviously parodying zero in that thread.[/QUOTE]

That was pure ignorance then. You resembled same personality here also, thought it was real. You're probably parodying someone here also, so I'm not going to discuss anymore in this thread.

[QUOTE]That was pure ignorance then.[/QUOTE]
apology accepted, but don't do it in the future.

[QUOTE]You resembled same personality here also, thought it was real.[/QUOTE]
haikus are supposed to be 5/7/5

[QUOTE]You're probably parodying someone here also, so I'm not going to discuss anymore in this thread.[/QUOTE]
No I'm just owning you is all.

[QUOTE=The Tway]no one has the right to be free from all "oppression".

everyone should have the right to be free from all oppression that is done for no net benefit to anyone. Since many people have raised perfectly functional kids without battering them at any point this is oppression carried out for its own sake.[/QUOTE]

Some parents tout success stories of not having [I]any[/I] punishment, but rather letting children suffer natural repurcussions for their actions. Some parents tout letting their children experiment with drugs to remove the appeal in doing so. So, some tout not using corporal punishment--how's that a justification for banning it? There's also people who would attest that corporal punishment was necessary for them being raised properly. If we're going to use the least repressive technique that has had success, then you won't let parents discipline children at all.

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]Spanking did work for me. Yes, I was scared to act out because of it. But it wasn't intimidation, because I knew it was out of love. I was old enough to comprehend that. Sometimes the threat of taking away my Nintendo wasn't enough, or I would act out further when it was taken away. This all stopped when I grew to be around 8.
.[/QUOTE]

What the hell kind of wimp were you as a kid? I can't believe that a couple pats on the *** actually influenced your actions but taking away your Nintendo didn't. Seriously, you need help.

i'm interested to see how Tway handles kids when he has em. I can just see him frustrated standing in the kitched as he yells and yells but the kids have given up caring and don't listen to what he says in the first place as he fights back the urge to give in to "beating" them.
and also, is it just me, or does Tway seem to be the most violently minded person here, asking if we need him to "smack the **** out of you" and "beat the first 11 pages into you".
So to sum this up, Tway wasn't spanked, and he is hte one expressing the most violence in this thread???? hmmmm

[QUOTE=The Profit of Maine]Maybe I'm generalizing this too much, but the kids now in Middle and High school in America (and I think this has applied to England for at least ten years with "hoodlums" and whatnot) [I]have lost all respect for their elders[/I].[/QUOTE]

Only because elders don't respect teens.

[QUOTE]So, some tout not using corporal punishment--how's that a justification for banning it?[/QUOTE]

because it's needless oppression carried out for it's own sake.

[QUOTE]i'm interested to see how Tway handles kids when he has em. I can just see him frustrated standing in the kitched as he yells and yells but the kids have given up caring and don't listen to what he says in the first place as he fights back the urge to give in to "beating" them.
[/QUOTE]
why would I yell and why wouldn't they listen to me

[QUOTE]
and also, is it just me, or does Tway seem to be the most violently minded person here, asking if we need him to "smack the **** out of you" and "beat the first 11 pages into you".
So to sum this up, Tway wasn't spanked, and he is hte one expressing the most violence in this thread???? hmmmm[/QUOTE]

/me beats you with a singapore cane. satirically.

[QUOTE=The Tway]
why would I yell and why wouldn't they listen to me
[/QUOTE]

ok
1. You would yell cuz they aren't listening
2. The wouldn't listen maybe for several reasons. Maybe it's not something that they wanted to do, maybe they just don't care, maybe they want to do something else, (insert any reason why little kids don't listen)....kids don't listen 100% of the time. I'm sure you were there, tell me why you didn't listen.

[QUOTE]You would yell cuz they aren't listening[/QUOTE]

I've only had occaission to yell at kids for not listening to me when they were doing something that endangered the wellbeing of themselves or others.

and that's got nothing to do with punishment.

[QUOTE=RNR]What the hell kind of wimp were you as a kid? I can't believe that a couple pats on the *** actually influenced your actions but taking away your Nintendo didn't. Seriously, you need help.[/QUOTE]

I was smacked on the leg, hard. And once across the face, because I had smacked another kid for no reason. (Actually I didn't, my parents were mistaken about that, but that's a long story) When Nintendo was taken away, I would just go take it right back. I even taunted my parents to take it away, so I could go climb on a chair and get it back myself.

Nothing really prevented me from acting out in the future, but a spanking was punishment that I couldn't get out of once it was issued. I CAN get off of grounding early, and I CAN steal my Nintendo back when no one was around. But once I was smacked on the leg, there was nothing I could do, because the punishment was over.

EDIT - and BECAUSE of all of that, a spanking was sometimes the only thing that would make me realize I did something wrong, other than seeing my mom cry if I had done something to hurt her.. and that was emotionally upsetting and far worse.

[QUOTE=The Tway]

why would I yell and why wouldn't they listen to me

[/QUOTE]


Because kids are KIDS and don't always listen?

[QUOTE]
Because kids are KIDS and don't always listen?[/QUOTE]

they listen if they have a nonviolent incentive for them to listen

that's so not true!!!
Little kids are disobedient only becuase they only care about what htey want, not what you want them to do or don't want them to do. They're going to do it regardless of whether you have spanked them in the past or not. Now after a few spankings they might have learned but there disobedience has nothing to do witht hem being spanked, how do i know? They had to have disobeyed at one point and been spanked for the first time.......

[QUOTE=LittlePound]that's so not true!!!
Little kids are disobedient only becuase they only care about what htey want, not what you want them to do or don't want them to do. They're going to do it regardless of whether you have spanked them in the past or not. Now after a few spankings they might have learned but there disobedience has nothing to do witht hem being spanked, how do i know? They had to have disobeyed at one point and been spanked for the first time.......[/QUOTE]

You're really not helping.

[QUOTE]that's so not true!!! [/QUOTE] omg it soo is!!
[QUOTE]Little kids are disobedient only becuase they only care about what htey want, not what you want them to do or don't want them to do. They're going to do it regardless of whether you have spanked them in the past or not. Now after a few spankings they might have learned but there disobedience has nothing to do witht hem being spanked, how do i know? They had to have disobeyed at one point and been spanked for the first time.......[/QUOTE] Let's say they disobeyed at one point and got some priveleges taken away. They can learn the same lessons without connecting violence with power, that might=right mantra that gets so many kids in trouble

[QUOTE=lfantwister]that might=right mantra that gets so many kids in trouble[/QUOTE]

Except most kids are smart enough to know that it won't get them anywhere and it's a parental punishment. Which is why I wouldn't hit my kids if they were 3 and did something wrong.

I agree with TS - Violence isnt neccesarily the answer, but repect for others is definitely decreasing amongst kids - not that long ago kid's would be punished severely in school when they misbehaved. Now the teachers are more afraid of being sued than the kid's are of the teachers, and it's possible that many of them will end up not learning valuable lessons about what's right and wrong.