[QUOTE=-Nath-]
Great idea though. I just wonder how one would determine who goes where, I can easily imagine an "Experienced Writers" forum being infested with 14 year olds who imagine that they're "all that".[/QUOTE]

Well assuming there are enough "experienced" writers constantly on the forums, the standard of quality writing could be self governing. The writers themselves would maintain the majority of quality control, with the mods having to do minimal work.


[QUOTE=RunAmokRampant]yeh that's a good idea but sometimes it would be hard to differentiate between intermediate and experienced writers. There's no clear line. Perhaps just beginners and experienced sub forums?[/QUOTE]

Well there is a large gray area between being a beginner and being very good. I was thinking of using the experienced writer's forum as a place for the top handful of writers, and the intermediate forum as a catch all middle ground, and the beginner forum for the bottom wrung.

You could even seperate the three forums by writing problems:

[b]Experienced Writers -[/b] Pieces of work requiring polish and fine tuning. Focus on connotation, mood, theme, and tone.
[b]Intermediate Writers -[/b] Idea refinement. Removing extraneous and unnecessary information. Idea Cohesiveness. Proper use of multiple imagery, metaphors and similies to create an overall theme.
[b]Beginner Writers -[/b] Heavy grammatical and Structure issues. Capitalization, punctuation. Overuse of Cliche' and unoriginal ideas. Lack of Imagery, Metaphors, and Similes. Mainly content issues.

If the forums get split they should be open to everyone to read and post in. Where a member submits their work would be the only thing that would be limited.

I like the division idea. Sounds cool.

It's an idea I'll admit to toying with in my head sometimes, but the fact is, it's probably not going to happen, especially with the emphasis recently seeming to be on [i]fewer[/i] forums.
There are a few points to consider, as well:

1. Assuming the current crop of users (ie most of the guys who have posted on the last few pages)sticks around, this is the busiest S&L has been in the two years I've been here - this place has serious consistency issues - there have been times in the past few months where we've been lucky to see three new songs a day, and that's including the 'OMGZ I M155 U' type songs we're all sick of. Hopefully, you'll all stick around, but I know first hand what it's like when the other half gets you under the thumb. ;) If this was to happen again, we'd have a hard time justifying keeping 2-3 forums open.

2. Recently in this thread, a few users (myself, Tojes and someone else I think) looked back and posted some of our first songs here - obviously, there was significant improvement all round since then, but none of us would have improved without access to the better writers around here. I've picked up literally hundreds of little tips and tricks, and got inspiration from images that guys like RollerQueen, SubtleDagger, ATC, Metaliq and so on have written about. If those guys were suddenly to disappear to another, segregated forum, their skills and tricks are lost - no-one can learn from them, as the only people that read their pieces are people that are extremely competent writers anyway. I think we underestimate how much newbs can pick up and learn by writing in the same environment as a veteran.

3. Who decides when a user is capable of moving up a level? If it's the user, what happens when (as Nath said) we get someone who thinks they're better than they are, or conversely, sticks around in the beginner forum because they like the ego boost of getting 9.5/10 for every single song they post?
If it's the mods, what happens if (and this is not suggesting anything against either mod, I'll add) we get a user who is a fairly decent writer, but the mods don't rate him/her? Or perhaps the user's a good writer, but an idiot, and the advanced users would rather they didn't have to put up with said user?

4. To be as blunt as possible, it's a form of elitism - whilst that's fine in The Pit, where more or less anything goes, here in S&L, it would be a bit more of an issue. We also run the risk of it becoming seen as a circlejerk club by the users that aren't part of it.

I do like the idea, but I don't think it'll happen for those reasons and more - plus it would be a nightmare to implement.

Also, welcome to the best community thread in the forums guys. Stick about, you're all sensible. :)

Alt/Indie has the best community thread.

That idea will also never happen, because J's a laze when it comes to making new forums. Anyways I've been on block for about a month, hopefully something will come out soon.

If any of you guys have never heard maudlin of the Well's BATH I severly recommend it, some of the best lyric/music ever made.

As far as lyrics go, I'm currently hooked on JamisonParker, specifically 'Slow Suicide'.

Ditto Jason's comment. There's really only a handful of regular posters, and ignoring the inherent elitism of such a division, most of the forums simply wouldn't get the kind of traffic that would justify it's existence. Not only that, but I suppose the responsibility of deciding what goes where will have to be the moderator's, and I think they've got enough on their plate given the new critique rule.

[QUOTE=slack]Ditto Jason's comment. There's really only a handful of regular posters, and ignoring the inherent elitism of such a division, most of the forums simply wouldn't get the kind of traffic that would justify it's existence. Not only that, but I suppose the responsibility of deciding what goes where will have to be the moderator's, and I think they've got enough on their plate given the new critique rule.[/QUOTE]

Even if they were, like I said MX the admin won't make it. So there's no reason to discuss it anymore.

I think S+L is fine as it is. We're pretty busy, we have our regular decent lyricists who always offer good advice and crits and we're a happy little community. Even if we did spilt the forum (which isn't gonna happen) there would be even more problems that we have now.

Anychow... I have a problem. I have an extremely hard time deciphering other people's poems. I mean I really struggle with getting the basic concept of what they're writing about. It gets to the point where I can't offer a decent crit. Also along the same lines... sometimes when attempting to crit a better writer than myself, I find their writing so complex and different that I don't think I can offer any advice because I can't compare it to anything. Does anyone else get this or am I just odd?

Yeah, sometimes. I think as long as you justify your interpretation, it's okay.

[QUOTE]sometimes when attempting to crit a better writer than myself, I find their writing so complex and different that I don't think I can offer any advice because I can't compare it to anything.[/QUOTE]

If it gets to that stage I think you have to question whether they really are better writers.

I absolutely do not want to split up forums into divisions for certain writers. Nick and I have done some stuff on another forum like that; it is really effective with making people better writers, but it takes a huge amount of mod work and only works with huge poetry sites to begin with, since new members would not be interested in dealing with all the divisions. There would also be a huge amount of complaining about mod elitism because with forums like that, mods have all the power and make all the decisions about a user's talent.

Can someone please kill this douche [b]mahershalalhashbaz[/b]?!! He's got at least three songs on the main page (two posted a couple of minutes apart)and I doubt he's done much critting. And he's stealing other bands song titles for his own work: [quote=mahershalalhashbaz]The Quiet Things That No One Ever Knows (title stolen from Brand New- I liked it so much)[/quote]

I Just did a search on his name and he has never posted a response to anyone elses work (Let alone a crit) And he has posted 5 song threads in S&L... Where the total of his 18 posts mostly come from (the rest come from other forums)

He wants feedback on five seperate lyrics and yet has not contributed a single drop to this forum.

Had to go to work; I got him.

Wow- I'm just listening to the 9 leaked demos from Brand New, Jessie Lacey really is quite incredible with his lyrics. If any of you are fans I'd suggest you [url=http://anarchyforsale.com/demos.zip]check them out.[/url]

hmmm - rumour has it that those songs aren't all going to make the album, although I'm not sure how true that is.

I think the band themselves said that none of the songs were going to make the album, but that's also rumor.

*sigh* - I'm considering just writing 3 or 4 paragraphs saying 'this was alright but I've read this 100 times before - you need to work on imagery (read ATC's/SD's guide) and ease up on the forced rhymes.'

I could critique 5 songs a day accurately and easily, just by copying and pasting those paragraphs. It's really frustrating sometimes. :-\

I'M THROUGH TO THE NATIONAL FINALS!!!!

I got a reply back from one of the poetry competitions I entered, I won the regional heat and now I've been entered into the National Final.

It really is great, the National Final is usually won by a really well known famous poet so I don't really have a chance. But still, I'm sooooo excited!!

If I come in the top 15 I go down to London to a reading thing, where I meet a load of famous poets, and I read one of my pieces (doesn't have to be the one I entered into the competition).

I think 'thrilled' sums my feelings up at the moment :)

Timmy P

Congratulations- that's awesome.

What piece did you post?

congrats man

Congratulations, Timmy. Hope you get to the top 15. Good luck.

I just thought I'd whore my band out just a bit. Most of those songs had their lyrics critiqued in S&L or the LCs so maybe you guys would like to hear how they sound. Finally got around to updating and adding some new music to it that I'm happy with.

[url=http://www.purevolume.com/anticarnation]My purevolume[/url]

[QUOTE=ATC]Congratulations, Timmy. Hope you get to the top 15. Good luck.

I just thought I'd whore my band out just a bit. Most of those songs had their lyrics critiqued in S&L or the LCs so maybe you guys would like to hear how they sound. Finally got around to updating and adding some new music to it that I'm happy with.

[url=http://www.purevolume.com/anticarnation]My purevolume[/url][/QUOTE]
That is some really really nice stuff you got there. I've been listening to it as I've been working and it's really relaxing :) Thanks :thumb:

I entered [URL="http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432599&highlight=father"]'For my Father'[/URL], I consider it one of my best. More comments are appreciated :)

Thanks for the 'grats everyone :)

ATC I'm going to listen now!

Timmy P

[QUOTE=ATC]Congratulations, Timmy. Hope you get to the top 15. Good luck.

I just thought I'd whore my band out just a bit. Most of those songs had their lyrics critiqued in S&L or the LCs so maybe you guys would like to hear how they sound. Finally got around to updating and adding some new music to it that I'm happy with.

[url=http://www.purevolume.com/anticarnation]My purevolume[/url][/QUOTE]

Ah you've done some changes since I last had a listen. I like it- some of it's very soothing and more importantly it proves that your style of lyric writing really can work exceptionally well with music. Plus I like the vocalists you use.

Are you planning on doing that concept song (about a book with some sort of odd dog and about wierd psychadelic dreams) as I could really picture that with some seriously nice ambient synths and so on.

Ok I have a question...

My band is just finishing up our songs for our forthcoming E.P...I'd really like some crit for all the lyrics on it but I realise the rules state one song a day...Is it not okay for me to like...make one thread of all the lyrics for all five of our songs and let people crit them as a whole collection? It'd just make things a lot easier because I'd really like some feedback on the literary quality of our music.

If neccessary I'll crit like, 20 in return :P hehe

I guess you could post one a day as per the rules and then post something in here with links to all five. That would work.

So are we going to start doing Song of the Month? I like that idea.

Yeah, I'll give it another couple of days, then I'll have a chat with Burt on AIM - Any suggestions on a format?

My suggestion:

Users nominate to me any songs they feel worthy of a nomination for song of the month - I'll probably create a thread for it or something when the time comes.

From there, I'll pass the list to Subtle and Dfelon, (I think that was what Subtle was saying when we talked about it earlier) and they whittle it down to about 4 songs, which are put to the poll for the users to decide.

That's the best way I can think of getting a fair balance of public opinion and writing skill, although I'm welcoming any suggestions. :)

[QUOTE=deathscreamingsheep]Ah you've done some changes since I last had a listen. I like it- some of it's very soothing and more importantly it proves that your style of lyric writing really can work exceptionally well with music. Plus I like the vocalists you use.

Are you planning on doing that concept song (about a book with some sort of odd dog and about wierd psychadelic dreams) as I could really picture that with some seriously nice ambient synths and so on.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comments,man. And thank you, Herbert and Timmy.

Yes, I'll be doing that concept song. It's going to take awhile to complete because I find it easier to work with female vocalists and I need a male vocalist for that song. That song's essentially done as far as the music and the ambient parts and the female parts go. Just need to record a suitable male voice. I'm sorta happy with the bridge that's T-A-G-C-T, random genetic code type thing. With enough bit processing, you can actually make the guitar say T,A,G,C,T. So yea, I went off on a tangent.