First, if you're considering Maroon 5 to be funk, then you're deeply misguided my friend.

Second, you're pretty much good to start off with the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale, but the Dorian mode is used heavily in funk, since the major 6 adds a nice bit of tritone tension with the minor third.

[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]Okay, I know lots of theory, and am just having trouble improvising melodically. I understand tritone sub., altered chords + scales, other substitutions, modal playing, tonal centers, chromaticism, etc...

But I find it really hard to phrase well. Do you guys have any special tips for motivic and melodic phrasing, besides listening to others?

Thanks, any answers would be really helpful..[/QUOTE]
Sing along with what you're playing. No joke, this works, it forces you to keep your phrases within a managable length, and also to keep them simple. They will end up sounding so much better.

Spastic, you are the man! I'm 15 and thanks to your eloquent explanations I've actually been able to expand my playing beyond pentatonic blues and simple tapping shapes. As for that jackass and his infamous post on your 'pretentious' recordings... :lol:

Just wondering...anybody have any opinion on what is best to use for a sexy/sultry kind of sound? Yeah, that's half the vibe given off by jazz, but I just can't seem to capture it and I was wondering if any particular modes give off that kind of feel. :confused:

[QUOTE=HaVIC5]First, if you're considering Maroon 5 to be funk, then you're deeply misguided my friend.

Second, you're pretty much good to start off with the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale, but the Dorian mode is used heavily in funk, since the major 6 adds a nice bit of tritone tension with the minor third.[/QUOTE]


haha. no i dont consider maroon 5 to be funk. I should have said " maroon 5 type songs and funk songs"

Whenever I try to voice a minor 7 chord with the third and the seventh in my left hand and the 1 and the 5 in my right, it sounds like an Eb6. I understand that the bass fills in the 1, but for solo purpases is playing the 1 and the 5 in the right and the 3 and the 7 in the right hand the best way to voice?

I thought with jazz piano you used mainly the third and seventh, and dropped the root because the bass handles it?

That's what I've been told at least. You could always add on your own extensions, of course, to give it life. But, the third and seventh in the right is correct (I believe), and drop the root. Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. :p :)

Alright thank you, thats what I thought.

It seems that you must be schooled? I have been playing jazz for 45 years. I never have time to think of what scale to play over which chord. You can learn all the theory you want, but it won't help you play jazz. Most of the guitarists that I know or knew. Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Howard roberts all played from feel. The best way is to take one model scale. The dorian scale is probably the best scale to use. Try playing the a dorian against the following chords. Ami7 D7 Gma7, and you will be suprised what you can come up with. playing the G scale starting with A is the dorian for those not familier with scales. Learn other peoples solos is one of the best way to learn jazz.

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sorry not even close.

gosh this thread is almost dead.

anyone know what happened to spastic?

I come and go.

Spastic:

Can you explain secondary dominants?

thanks

[QUOTE=spastic]I come and go.[/QUOTE]

what are you doing now?

[quote] Spastic:

Can you explain secondary dominants?

thanks[/quote]

Secondary dominants are dominant chords that don't resolve to the tonic, but another chord in the scale. In the progression G7 - Cmaj7, the G7 is just a normal dominant chord. However, you can add a secondary dominant chord to make it D7 - G7 - Cmaj7. The D7 acts as the V7 chord of the G7; however, the G7 is not acting as a tonic chord.

Usually secondary dominant chords are used as a V chord of other dominant chords, but in practice any dominant chord that resolve to a chord besides the tonic is a secondary dominant chord. In this progression: A7 - Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7, the A7 is a secondary dominant chord.

(By the way "secondary dominant" isn't a commonly used term (at least I rarely have heard it). However, the concept behind that term is often used and makes for much more interesting progressions)


[quote] what are you doing now?[/quote]

Not much, just finishing sophomore year of high school. Once school is over, I'll be able to focus much more on music. This summer I'm taking the 5 week performance course at Berklee, hopefully that will be a good experience.

Thanks, that made perfect sense.

Hello I'm a theory newbie and I found something contradictory to what I've learnt and I hope someone has an easy and clear answer for this:

I wanted to know why minor pentatonic sounds better with 7th chords rather than major pentatonic.

Let's say I'm soloing over a C7 which is C, E, G, Bb

Cmin pentatonic is C Eb F G Bb C
Cmaj pentatonic is C D E G A C

In Cmin, Eb falls out whilst Cmaj matches C7 perfectly. (I don't know how to put this down in words, but I guess you get what I mean) So according to what I've learnt, it makes more sense that Cmaj pentatonic sound better over C7 than Cmin pentatonic. But in reality it's not it.

So, WHY?!

Step outside of all of the complicated jazz theory for a second. When soloing, you shouldn't always be thinking, "what scale should I play over this chord"

A C7, as you said, contains the notes C E G Bb, so obviously any of those notes would sound good over a C7. Neither the Cmin pentatonic or Cmaj pentatonic follows those specifications. The Cmaj pentatonic works, but is not going to sound as good. Maybe you arent looking for either of those pentatonic scales. I would suggest a C blues scale.
A Cmin7 has the notes C Eb G Bb, that is where you would play the Cmin pentatonic. You are correct that the Cmin pentatonic scale does not sound good over a C7, because the E from the C7 clashes with the Eb from the Pentatonic scale. A Cmaj7 is where the Cmaj pentatonic scale would work best. adding a B to the Cmaj pentatonic would sound nice too.

Hope that helped!

[QUOTE=pianoplyr77]Step outside of all of the complicated jazz theory for a second. When soloing, you shouldn't always be thinking, "what scale should I play over this chord"

A C7, as you said, contains the notes C E G Bb, so obviously any of those notes would sound good over a C7. Neither the Cmin pentatonic or Cmaj pentatonic follows those specifications. The Cmaj pentatonic works, but is not going to sound as good. Maybe you arent looking for either of those pentatonic scales. I would suggest a C blues scale.
A Cmin7 has the notes C Eb G Bb, that is where you would play the Cmin pentatonic. You are correct that the Cmin pentatonic scale does not sound good over a C7, because the E from the C7 clashes with the Eb from the Pentatonic scale. A Cmaj7 is where the Cmaj pentatonic scale would work best. adding a B to the Cmaj pentatonic would sound nice too.

Hope that helped![/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but that didn't answer my question. I was asking why Cmin pentatonic sounded good with C7, which is contradictory to the theory.

Simply, C7 is used a lot in blues...The flatted seventh (in this case), was a dominant (haha, pun) note in the chord C, and perhaps one of the more important melodic notes in blues, because often it is not at the exact pitch of the seventh (for example, guitarists often bend the b3, b5, b7 degrees of the blues scale, because it sounds bluesy).

You see that Cmin pentatonic contains C, Eb, G, Bb. The important thing is that it contains Bb, which is an important chord tone, and completely changes the sound of the chord; it makes the difference between Cmaj7 and C7, and this tritone tension (in C7) can make all the difference in the world.

Strangely, Eb can be used against C7, as Spastic mentioned: in the blues scale, which is (my form, anyway):

C Eb F Gb G Bb

1 b3 4 b5 5 b7

The blues sound is quite prevalent in jazz, as the two genres often mix and match together...However, my advice would be not to hold the Eb against the C7; a minor 2nd interval IS very dissonant. Just use the Eb as a passing tone, if you use the blues scale.

Hey I take theory as a subject but I fid it hard to apply it to my instrument of choice (Bass)

So I'd like to look into Chord Progression, Sight Reading and Use of scales and Modes...

Any help would be greatly appreciated. :thumb:

sight reading takes practice, i suggest looking at musictheory.net for help with that. Scales learn as many as you possible can, and try to apply them every chance you get. Chord progressions i'm not really sure i've ever studied them, but if you look at some jazz standars you should find a blues form, rhythm changes, and tritonic harmonies.

I've been looking at musictheory.net and the only problem is the sightreading of bass there was only guitar, key board and brass.

And is anyone in the knowing of a lesson of applying scales to bass?

Hm. I play jazz bass, e. though...

Anyway, theory helps bass a LOT. Most especially chord theory. Learning and applying common harmonic progressions will help you IMMENSELY. Key notes: in jazz, and a lot of popular music, the chords move in perfect fourths. This means UP in 4th's; for example, if you see Cm7, you expect a chord beginning on the root note a perfect fourth up. In this case, it's a chord with root F. (The quality is determined by key, melody, and ear, and I'm not counting inversions here...)

This is where the ii-V-I comes from. Notice they move in fourths. If you extend this progression, by moving entirely in fourths, you get a longer progression: ii-V-I-IV-viio-iii-vi. Note, however, that there is one tritone interval, from chord root to chord root. (I'll explain that later).

Ever heard of Autumn Leaves? It's that exact chord pattern, in the key of G major. However, Autumn Leaves is in E minor. How is this possible? The two keys share the same diatonic seventh chords. The most important thing about the progression is that it moves in fourths, not the key it is in. (Note also the progression ends on an Em7 - the tonic).

Anyway, learn chord charts - for walking in 4 and 2, and for general comping; for bass, I'd say learning chord charts is more important than learning to read. Chances are you'll be given chords, not melody. (Learn to sight read, if you are playing upright in a classical context. The only way to learn though, is by practice. And get someone to put you under pressure, and force you to read. Does wonders...)

Scales and modes are useful for a bassist, but unless you are big on bass solos, modes won't be all that neccessary. Also, learning chordal and harmonic theory can help you just as much, if not more, in soloing.

Yeah I play Electric bass too (if that's what you were implying)

I really need some full lessons, links please?

I'd search but all the searches exclude the word 'bass' so it's really hard.

You won't find many full lessons on the net, not for this kind of stuff. Not good lessons anyway. My teacher taught me about modes, progressions, walking, etc...But then he's a jazz freak, so...

For general jazz theory: [url]http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-theory.html[/url]
For modes and scales: [url]http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/[/url]
For chordal theory, general theory, including classical: [url]www.musictheory.net[/url]

There aren't many tutorial sites for jazz bass out there. I'd recommend learning arpeggio positions, modal positions, and the names of ALL the notes on the fretboard. It's not easy, but it's **** rewarding.

Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense? :confused:

If you want a chord with just the thirteenth than just say "added 13".
For example, a C(added 13) would contain the notes: C E G A. Tipically when you want to use an added 13 you just call it a C6 (A is the 13 and the 6 in the key of C). All of the other ones, like added 11 or added 2 are all written out as "added (blank)"

[QUOTE=barnable_eatable]Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense? :confused:[/QUOTE]

it's called a major 6 chord. think of the chord as a dominant 7th chord with the seventh lowered again - C E G A (Bbb). it would most likely be written as C6 or C13 and usually incorporates the major scale when improvising. you don't ALWAYS have to layer thirds on top of eachother to create a chord.

PS: i've seen a lot of bass players posting on this site. tell me what you guys think of Victor Wooten. he's out of his mind! absolutely crazah!

Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?[/QUOTE]

yoiu were right, it is A.

[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?[/QUOTE]

Alterations on chords are used simply for the purpose of giving color to more simple chords. There are commonly used alterations, but they are not used over specific chords. For example, an Am7(b5) instead of just an Am7 would sound more full and "jazzy". Just expiriment with them untill you find something you like.

[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?[/QUOTE]


for sixth chords ex. C6 or Cmin6 think of them as triads with an added major 6. the 9th degree should always be major 9.

So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?

[QUOTE=ParaRiddleDiddle]So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?[/QUOTE]


i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: dominant sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it :p.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: nt sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it :p.[/QUOTE]

Yes, a sharp nine isn't a minor third... it's a sharp nine.

can someone please post some tab lessons about scales and stuff. i know absolutely nothing about jazz playing since i mainly have been playing metal and rock and such, plus i have no one to teach me how to play jazz (or play guitar at all but i seem to be surviving.). so yea please tab out some scales and stuff, since i don't understand all of this "b#" stuff.

LMFAO! B#.

No offense meant, but you MUST MUST MUST learn to read music. In jazz, you will be, as a guitarist, given lead sheets, in standard notation. Since you will be either playing the melody, or accompanying, you definetley need to learn chord theory, and note/chord names, etc..

I think he meant flats and sharps.

Yes like parariddlediddle (haha so much fun to type) said learn to read music. There are pleanty of sites out there that would have what you are looking for. You should just google guitar theory or something like that.

nobody help him with a tab because he doesn't know how to read :p