Depends on the song. Grouping the song into II-V's or other common chord progressions is probably my most common technique, but not every song has common chord progressions; in those cases, I either memorize it completely, or try as best as I can to group it together theoretically.

[QUOTE=spastic]No they do not, hence the title of 'sus' (any sus chord does not have a third).[/QUOTE]

okay, thanks. i was pretty sure, but what convinced me that i had to ask is that my music teacher was saying that they did have thirds. i want to get him fired soo much sometimes. hes cool, but doesnt have much of an education in music.

Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.

[QUOTE=coodlebass]Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.[/QUOTE]

He just turned 16, if his birthday is correct.

Yeah man hit them with it while they're young b/c they'll thank you for it later on down the track
BTW I'm hoping my g/f will have my kid since I've been going out with her for two years which is a record for me and hopefully I can turn him into a drummer so i can jam with him :D
But seriously with the right teacher you can progress rapidly no matter what age it depends on the teacher
You know the moto "Good teacher good student so spastic has got a good teacher

You learn the fastest when you teach it, I have first hand experience with that. Every week I give a few (4) kids trombone lessons, and I teach them a little bit of theory as well. I also teach a few (2) kids strictly theory, we sit at a piano every week and I write out things on blank sheet music, teach them theory, help them with ear training, and work on rhythms and things. Some days I'll bring one of my jazz albums and we'll kind of analyze it - intervals, rhythms, and so forth. Right now both of them are still at a basic level (they are both 7th graders), but they, as well as I, are learning a lot very quickly. I'm hoping to soon get into jazz theory and composition and fun things like that with them.

So the bottom line is, if you want to quickly broaden your knowledge of something, teach it to someone, no matter what it is.

[QUOTE=manuscriptreplica]tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor[/QUOTE]

if you want a really cool arabic sound, try this scale, i don't know what it's technical name is, i've only heard it called the Byzantine Scale:

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 8

basically a harmonic minor scale with a flat 2 and a sharp 3.

[QUOTE=Bryan Blakey]You learn the fastest when you teach it, I have first hand experience with that. Every week I give a few (4) kids trombone lessons, and I teach them a little bit of theory as well. I also teach a few (2) kids strictly theory, we sit at a piano every week and I write out things on blank sheet music, teach them theory, help them with ear training, and work on rhythms and things. Some days I'll bring one of my jazz albums and we'll kind of analyze it - intervals, rhythms, and so forth. Right now both of them are still at a basic level (they are both 7th graders), but they, as well as I, are learning a lot very quickly. I'm hoping to soon get into jazz theory and composition and fun things like that with them.

So the bottom line is, if you want to quickly broaden your knowledge of something, teach it to someone, no matter what it is.[/QUOTE]

Yep I agree share "n " share alike I say I mean what use is it if you have all this knowledge and you take it to the grave with you.
I too am in that category of teaching students that want to learn theory or music in general and yes you learn as much as they do when you are teaching
But remeber they ( students ) will also judge you on your performances or credits ( gig'd with so n so ... etc ) I mean reputation does have a advantage which will make teaching them that much easier then as if you taught them from scratch but one way is to get their trust by teaching them in a way that they understand and therefore there progress will show

[QUOTE=spastic] And, as you probably know, the 3rd is what creates a Major or Minor sound (without a 3rd the chord is called 'sustain,' or sus).
[/QUOTE]

good lesson, but "sus" in the context of chord names stands for "suspended," not sustained.

[QUOTE=coodlebass]Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.[/QUOTE]

I am 16 now, and started music theory when I was 13 (right when I started guitar), but I didn't really get into theory until 14.

[QUOTE=tgadrummer]good lesson, but "sus" in the context of chord names stands for "suspended," not sustained.[/QUOTE]


Yeah that was a mistake I made in there. It was a while ago, and I know my error now. But it's not big enough of a mistake for me to go back and edit it.

hello, im a mediocre bass player who's trying to play jazz.

people told me you'll get nowhere near to jazz without knowing theory so since a few months ago i've been reading stuffs on scales etc...

and now im fed up of going "so fcuking what?" everytime i read something about theories.

and luckily enough, i found this place and found this (written by spastic)

[COLOR=Orange][I]If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Maj7 - C Ionian

Because C Maj7 contains these tones: Root (1), 3, 5, 7. The Ionian scale contains 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

E Min7 - E Dorian

Because E Min7 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, b7. The Dorian scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, b5, 6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

A Min7 b5 - A Locrian

Because A Min7 b5 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, b5, b7. The Locrian scale contains 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

G Min (Maj7) - G Melodic Minor

Because G Min (Maj7) contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, 7. The Melodic Minor scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord. Notice that this scale is not in the Major scale. Be aware that not all the scales you will use will come from the Major scale.[/I][/COLOR]
and i'd like to ask one question, does this same thing apply to writing walking bass lines? (and moreover bass solos?)

a few days ago, i started jamming with this crazy jazz pianist and i couldn't do anything. i badly need to know how to write basic walking bass lines for chords.

Yeah, that also applies to walking bass lines. Walking basslines are kinda like constant quarter note solos.

actually, a few years ago this dude showed me on piano, how to "jazzify" chords. for example, let's say there's a chord progression that goes like C - F - C - G which doesnt sound like jazz at all. so he tranformed those into some weird chords and added some extra chords inbetween and it started to sound real jazzy.

how do you do this? what did he do? what are the rules?

Probably added the flat 7th to each chord (C7, F7, C7, G7... blues progression), and maybe an Edim7 (IIIdim7) before the F7, and a G9 (V9) at the very end before resolving to the root C7. There's a ton of things you can do, that's just a few things I like to add when playing a blues on piano. I gave the roman numeral things in case you wanted to figure it out in a different key.

[QUOTE=Bryan Blakey]Probably added the flat 7th to each chord (C7, F7, C7, G7... blues progression), and maybe an Edim7 (IIIdim7) before the F7, and a G9 (V9) at the very end before resolving to the root C7. There's a ton of things you can do, that's just a few things I like to add when playing a blues on piano. I gave the roman numeral things in case you wanted to figure it out in a different key.[/QUOTE]

yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.

[QUOTE=superman2]yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.[/QUOTE]

Ok let's see "Än understanding of Soloing" yeah don't we all Soloing is about HEARING and about playing what you hear with enough clarity that everybody else hears it too.
So it's not just "understanding" it's understanding and conception and aural conception and physical approach all wrapped up. You don't have to remember the whole dictionary to in order to have a conversation right? Playing music is like that , What is important is conveying MEANING , in this case what you are hearing. The Larger your working vocabulary the more specificity you have in your language and what you are trying to say but the vocabulary isn't driving the idea , your INTENT is.
What you are looking for is not more bullets but need to work Improving your AIM so Learn theory concurently with ear training concurently with exercises to familarize yourself with the fretboard concurently with exercises to get harmony in your ears that's what you need to work on to improve your aim ,
This goes with playing chords as well .

[QUOTE=superman2]yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.[/QUOTE]


I think what you want to understand is reharmonization.

Sorry I don't have time to write up a complete overview of this, but here's a start. I'll try to write up a better one later.

Here are some ideas to try out:

-Adding a V chord
Almost any chord can be preceded by it's V chord. For instance, in that progression when you go from C to F, you could change it to C - C7 - F.

You can also precede a V chord with a II chord. That progression would then be changed to C - Gmin7 - C7 - F

-Tritone Substitution
Almost any V chord can be replace with another V chord a tritone away. There was a good thread a while back on this.

And because a V chord can be preceded by a II chord, the entire II-V can be moved a tritone. So your progression could be something like:

C - Gmin7 C7 -- F - C#7 -- C - D#min7 G#7 -- G - G#min7 C#7 --

-Chromatic II-V movement
A II-V can be preceded by another II-V a half step up. Example:

C - Gmin7 C7 -- F - C#7 -- C - G#7 -- Amin7 D7 G#min7 C#7

-Adding color tones
Almost any chord, especially dominant chords, can sound much more jazzy when you add alterations to them.

Also, I highly suggest that whenever you are playing a Maj triad, to replace that with a Maj6 or a Maj6/9. It is much more interesting, but still keeps the same basic tonality.


Well, that might be a bit unclear, but I hope it helps.

That is a bit unclear at first, but after some careful reading it all makes sense.:)

This might be kind of a stupid question, but when one decides to use tritone substitution, is it ok if only one person does it, or does the whole progression in general have to change?

For instance, if the chord progression is let's say C7 - Bb7 - Emin7 - A7 would it be ok if only I played C7 - E7 - A#min7 - A7, or does the whole progression change, meaning everyone plays that?

It doesn't matter.

If only the soloist plays it, there will be tension, but that is usually a good thing if you play convincingly over the changes (in other words, your solo is clearly a tritone away from the rest of the band, and you resolve clearly to the one chord).

If the entire band follows, you'll lose the tension that is built in to the sub, but it will sound good anyways. Also, just moving chords can have an interesting sound; even if there isn't any 'internal' tension ('internal' meaning between members of the band, I don't know if there's a real term for this, I just made it up), there is tension between the chords that are expected and what is actually played.

NOTE: Usually the band members that are comping shouldn't go out unless they are trying to follow the soloist. If the soloist isn't playing a tritone sub, usually you shouldn't comp one. It might throw off the soloist, and they probably wouldn't be able to hear your changes and react to it well.

Ahh, ok. Cool, that really helped a lot.:)

Thanks

Alright, so we've covered tritone substitution, i know coltrane changes, we've (apparently "briefly") done reharmonization. All of which are things used nearly exclusively in jazz.

I have a solid understanding of scales and intervals and modes and all the rest of that begginer stuff, but i still feel i need more exclusive jazz theory, such as something in the vein of those things i mentioned in the first paragraph. Any suggestions would be fantastic.
Peace

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**** off.

smooth jazz??? Don't you mean 'meaningless ****e'?

Gah! Jazz guitar hurts my head...I can't change chords that fast. I can with with major or minor chords, but when all those variations get thrown in, my head explodes.

[QUOTE=starless and bible black]**** off.

smooth jazz??? Don't you mean 'meaningless ****e'?[/QUOTE]

Could you have any more of a closed mind?

It was a spam post, you retarded Kenny G fan.

I actually am not a fan of smooth jazz, but I wouldn't call it meaningless.