[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]Long as it's in the community thread I don't care.

There's a new song up on my Sounclick btw: [url]http://www.soundclick.com/burtonwagner[/url].[/QUOTE]awesome stuff

Thanks to both of you, glad you like it.

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger][url]http://www.soundclick.com/burtonwagner[/url].[/QUOTE]

really good. only listened to a sentinel's eyes, but i like what i hear.

Burt's a robot, therefore he makes good, listenable music.

well i've listened to it all, and robot or not, its realy cool.

Thanks to both of you (not FA).

22,999

I'll ask in here, rather than make a thread;

is a that i think a song is unoriginal a valid criticism?

i think it is, but what are other views?

i think that if a piece is unoriginal, then it undermines its purpose as a piece of (and lets face it all forms of lyrics are) poetry. unless you can shed new light, or bring something new to the table, what is the point of flogging a dead horse?
i realise there are counter arguements to this, but what are they?
e.g. "its the way i really feel" or "its a big enough topic, for example love"

so, you tell me, is it a valid criticism or not?

I think it is a valid criticism as long as you can back it up. I think as you get more specific with your subject matter and you actually start telling [i]stories[/i], you know, like Dylan, Waits, and Springsteen, concern for originality and what is and is not cliche, all that goes out the window because it's real life, or seems that way. That's how it seems to me. I think when writer's opine about grandiose topics with equally grand language they subject themselves to the kind of criticism you mention. I don't know why it seems that way. Maybe because none of it seems authentic and it [i]sounds[/i] like another rant from a kid on his soapbox.

We're all working with the same old ideas, really. It's how we interpret them that makes the difference. I could write about death forever and never worry about being original as long as I make an effort to be specific.

I wouldn't advise people to stress over originality so much. It'll happen sooner or later. Just keep your eyes open and actually think about shi[font="verdana"]t[/font] once in awhile.

[QUOTE]It's how we interpret them that makes the difference[/QUOTE]

this bit i completely agree with, a topic as broad based and subjective as death, love, life etc is so huge that the facets it can be examined from seem endless, e.g. emily dickinson wrote alot about death, shakespeare's sonnets include a hell of a lot about love, and the romantics looked at life from hundreds of angles, yet all are celebrated as original.

but to your story suggestion, is it not vital that the story is in itself original in some way? that the writer use either brilliant imagery or an insightful metaphor, and so on.
for example, and i hate to use this, as its not a great example, but its the first i could think of;
dan brown's angels and demons compared to the da vinci cide. both are very similar, and one could argue that if angels and demons had reached a larger audience, the da vinci code would not have been as successful, due to the stark similarity between both books, and the unoriginal nature of angels and demons.

or you could look at poetry. most major poetic movements evolve from being original admidst an environment; (i know my timings off a bit here) from the romantic age, the metaphysical poets were born, bringing a different message, a differrent and [I]in that age [/I]an original branch of poetry, and achieved success for it.

so therefore, originality becomes a valid criticism, as it becomes vital to keep the piece fresh to make it worth reading

[quote]but to your story suggestion, is it not vital that the story is in itself original in some way?[/quote]I think once you get into the specifics of a story, you can't help but be original. It's inevitable. Everything has it's own little quirk, and it's up to you, the writer, to take that quirk and totally [font="verdana"]f[/font]uck it up until it's either really weird or really funny. Then maybe add a little poetic flair, a few pretty phrases, and you've got yourself a decent piece of writing.

Aside from this, isn't originality just a mish-mash of old ideas?

i have come to a conclusion

i am the worst songwriter ever

edit: to slack - agreed on both counts

[QUOTE]I think once you get into the specifics of a story, you can't help but be original. [I]and the rest[/I][/QUOTE]

i think its the ability to "**** it up" and the degree to which it is f[I]u[/I]cked, which dictates the success of the writer. for example, Duffy is hailed as one of the best contempary poets, and the way she reinterprets old ideas, most notably in the world's wife, shows her consumate skill at writing from new, in her case mostly feminine, perspectives.

[QUOTE]isn't originality just a mish-mash of old ideas?[/QUOTE]

ironically yes it seems, star wars can be seen as original or a mich mash of westerns, and so on. but then, it brought new ideas to the sci fi genre, at least on a mainstream level.
there's a narrative theory, can't remember who's, that says there are several basic story lines, and all stories revolve around these. but then its the new spin the author puts on these that determines the originality.


to eliminator: proof?

[QUOTE=Eliminator Jr.]i have come to a conclusion

i am the worst songwriter ever[/QUOTE]no wai

ya rly

I doubt it. The 'ol Body In A Bag piece was pretty darned awful.

[QUOTE=slack]I think it is a valid criticism as long as you can back it up. I think as you get more specific with your subject matter and you actually start telling [i]stories[/i], you know, like Dylan, Waits, and Springsteen, concern for originality and what is and is not cliche, all that goes out the window because it's real life, or seems that way. That's how it seems to me. I think when writer's opine about grandiose topics with equally grand language they subject themselves to the kind of criticism you mention. I don't know why it seems that way. Maybe because none of it seems authentic and it [i]sounds[/i] like another rant from a kid on his soapbox.[/quote]

I sort of disagree with this. A cliche is a genre-specific thing. A songwriter like Dylan has different cliches to avoid. Just because its about real life does not excuse a writer from cliches. The beauty of the songwriters you mentioned is that they have found their artistic voice and through that voice are able to make observations and give it a certain spin. In these cases, cliche is when they do what every other writer might do. For example, Springsteen's Reno. I don't think Springsteen thought he was exempt from cliche avoidance simply because he was writing about a real-life (probably) event.

She took off her stockings
I held 'em to my face
She had your ankles
I felt filled with grace

"Two hundred dollars straight in
Two-fifty up the ***" she smiled and said
She unbuckled my belt, pulled back her hair
And sat in front of me on the bed


[quote]
I wouldn't advise people to stress over originality so much. It'll happen sooner or later. Just keep your eyes open and actually think about shi[font="verdana"]t[/font] once in awhile.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Focus on finding your artistic voice is key. Only you possess your voice, so originality follows.

First time I've been on here in five days!! A new record for me I think!

I've been away walking and climbing, and am now home for 7 hours before I head off for another week on the hills. Sorry I haven't been critiquing anyone's work, but as soon as I'm back I'll be sure to catch up!

Hope you're all well.

Timmy

I'll tell you what i like. Bob Dylans spoken-word performance of 'Last Thoughts On Woody Guthrie'.. now that right there is impressive.

An excerpt: "And to yourself you sometimes say
"I never knew it was gonna be this way
Why didn't they tell me the day I was born"
And you start gettin' chills and yer jumping from sweat
And you're lookin' for somethin' you ain't quite found yet
And yer knee-deep in the dark water with yer hands in the air
And the whole world's a-watchin' with a window peek stare
And yer good gal leaves and she's long gone a-flying
And yer heart feels sick like fish when they're fryin'"

[quote=ATC]Just because its about real life does not excuse a writer from cliches.[/quote]True, but I don't think it matters past a certain point. I think writing [i]specifically[/i] about any event or any emotion allows you a certain freedom to [i]not care[/i] about cliches, because it will still seem genuine. Springsteen is probably not the first person to write about an encounter with a hooker in some motel, and in that sense you're right, it probably is cliche, but otherwise I really don't think [i]Reno[/i] should be viewed that way. It's beautiful writing.

So ... like originality, I don't think [i]cliche[/i] is such a big deal once your writing gets good enough. It's simply a non-issue then because you can write about any topic persuasively.

I love that song, by the way. :)

In case you're wondering, here's the lyrics to [i]Reno[/i]:

[quote]She took off her stockings, I held them to my face. She had your ankles, I felt filled with grace. [i]"Two hundred dollars straight in, two-fifty up the as[font="verdana"]s[/font]"[/i] she smiled and said. She unbuckled my belt, pulled back her hair, and sat in front of me on the bed. She said, [i]"Honey, how's that feel, do you want me to go slow?"[/i] My eyes drifted out the window, down to the road below. I felt my stomach tighten. The sun bloodied the sky and sliced through the hotel blinds. I closed my eyes.

Sunlight on the Amatitlan, sunlight streaming through your hair. In the Valle de dos Rios, smell of mock orange filled the air. We rode with the vaqueros down into cool rivers of green. I was sure the work and that smile coming out 'neath your hat was all I'd ever need. Somehow all you ever need's, never really quite enough you know. You and I, Maria, we learned it's so.

She slipped me out of her mouth, [i]"You're ready,"[/i] she said. She took off her bra and panties, wet her fingers, slipped it inside her, and crawled over me on the bed. She poured me another whisky, said, [i]"Here's to the best you ever had."[/i] We laughed and made a toast. It wasn't the best I ever had, not even close.[/quote]

It's the way you use the cliche, people.

If you use it knowing it is so, then maybe you can skip the effects and obviousness of what you write.

[QUOTE= slack] I think writing specifically about any event or any emotion allows you a certain freedom to not care about cliches[/QUOTE]

true, but then the piece needs to rely more heavily on delivery, in order to get a sense of genuine emotion. and by witnessing events or emotions first hand, and then writing about them, you're able to write more specifically about varying aspects of the situation.

and yeah, Reno's a great song. love the lyrics.

[QUOTE= tojes]It's the way you use the cliche, people.[/QUOTE]

that's a valid point, using cliches to your advantage can give the message a much more subtle delivery. look at dylan's Leopard skin pill box hat; outwardly a pretty generic, daft blues song. but underlying that is a mocking social commentary. so being aware of cliches allows you to play off audience/reader expectations.

hey kids hows it going :wave:

f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]cking happy, that's how...drunk.







If I'm feelin in the mood I may post a piece sometime soon...but probably not, no but seriously.................maybe.

Write a drunkard one!

who r u?

Mitch2oo6. Im the one that put a crit up for your song in the in-depth thread...and had an angry type of with APS in another of your threads.

[QUOTE=Surf]I'll ask in here, rather than make a thread;

is a that i think a song is unoriginal a valid criticism?

i think it is, but what are other views?

i think that if a piece is unoriginal, then it undermines its purpose as a piece of (and lets face it all forms of lyrics are) poetry. unless you can shed new light, or bring something new to the table, what is the point of flogging a dead horse?
i realise there are counter arguements to this, but what are they?
e.g. "its the way i really feel" or "its a big enough topic, for example love"

so, you tell me, is it a valid criticism or not?[/QUOTE]

Depends on how unoriginal. If it is damn near a copy of something else, then yes, there is no point in it existing.

But you also have to realize that there are many songs out there that pertain to many aspects of human life, and the idea that someone "did something before" is kind of moot. I mean, I *could* write a 100% original song about a giraffe who had a friend that was a rat who happened to live in Antarctica where he lounged all day eating apricots while practicing fencing...or I could write about an aspect of society that someone else once wrote about, but in a completely unique way and in a style all my own. That makes it original.

Generally, the way I look at it, for a song to be cliche it cannot simply be the topic, a MAJORITY of the song has to be...from the phrases, the construction, flow, etc. It has to lack a personal feel to it. (this is why I feel that 98% of rap should be destroyed. Hell, nowadays they don't even bother to make their own music, they just recycle things others have done.)

[QUOTE=Minos]Depends on how unoriginal. If it is damn near a copy of something else, then yes, there is no point in it existing.[/quote]Other than for the amusement of the artist. :)

I usually don't care how cliche they are.

Sometimes my first lines will be cliche because they get my mind going, and then after that I start thinking of better stuff.

[QUOTE=slack]Other than for the amusement of the artist. :)[/QUOTE]

Good point. ;)



The problem is when people don't see the line between something they should just keep for themselves to appreciate and something that can be appreciated in a greater form when shared.

[QUOTE=Minos]Depends on how unoriginal. If it is damn near a copy of something else, then yes, there is no point in it existing.

But you also have to realize that there are many songs out there that pertain to many aspects of human life, and the idea that someone "did something before" is kind of moot. I mean, I *could* write a 100% original song about a giraffe who had a friend that was a rat who happened to live in Antarctica where he lounged all day eating apricots while practicing fencing...or I could write about an aspect of society that someone else once wrote about, but in a completely unique way and in a style all my own. That makes it original.

Generally, the way I look at it, for a song to be cliche it cannot simply be the topic, a MAJORITY of the song has to be...from the phrases, the construction, flow, etc. It has to lack a personal feel to it. (this is why I feel that 98% of rap should be destroyed. Hell, nowadays they don't even bother to make their own music, they just recycle things others have done.)[/QUOTE]

123.
You my friend have got it down.

erm... has anyone listened to "Shed Some Light" from Shinedown ?

The lyrics are way too good...

And how about "In loving Memory" from Alter Bridge ?

I really like simple lyrics, but filled with feeling

[quote=minos](this is why I feel that 98% of rap should be destroyed. Hell, nowadays they don't even bother to make their own music, they just recycle things others have done.)[/quote]C'mon, you can do better than that.

[QUOTE]I *could* write a 100% original song about a giraffe who had a friend that was a rat who happened to live in Antarctica where he lounged all day eating apricots while practicing fencing...[/QUOTE]

Nah, I'm pretty sure the Mighty Boosh did something similar a while back.

On that note, does anyone here watch that show? I'm not even too sure if it's made it out of the UK yet, but it's hilarious - look it up on YouTube or something like that - it's well worth it, I think someone described it as 'Lewis Carrol meets Morecambe and Wise', and that's pretty damn accurate.

Killeroo and Tundra are the two best examples of what it's about.

[QUOTe=Minos]
Generally, the way I look at it, for a song to be cliche it cannot simply be the topic, a MAJORITY of the song has to be...from the phrases, the construction, flow, etc. It has to lack a personal feel to it. (this is why I feel that 98% of rap should be destroyed. Hell, nowadays they don't even bother to make their own music, they just recycle things others have done.)[/QUOTE]
No.
[QUOTE=Leftovers]erm... has anyone listened to "Shed Some Light" from Shinedown ?

The lyrics are way too good...

And how about "In loving Memory" from Alter Bridge ?

I really like simple lyrics, but filled with feeling[/QUOTE]
Hahahahahahahaha

[quote=subtledagger]No.[/quote] Rap isn't music duhhhhhh.

If someone hears something cliche in a song, do they stand up and say, "THAT LINE WAS CLICHE THIS SONG IS TERRIBLE"?

I do. Then I start smashing things.

AlienEater smash AlienEater angrrryyyy!

:angry: