[QUOTE=lfantwister]Kids dont really have the freedom to fight back quite as much. Plus its not killing babies, its killing fetuses[/QUOTE]

Sh I'm trying to nake a point.

oh sorry man ill be quiet now

[QUOTE=The Tway]I don't think kids who are actually in high school are really that much of a problem in the grand scheme of things.

and what makes you think that regular parental beatings would change the way 'jocks' are?[/QUOTE]

I don't think I once spoke in support of regular parental beatings in this thread. All I said was that the parents are, in the majority of cases, highly responsible for any delinquecy their children display and that a system of legal corporal punishment in school wouldn't adjust the delinquecy a bit.

EDIT: I see deadwalk has already taken care of the reminder.

wait you're concerned with the delinquency of students on high school sports teams?

[QUOTE]Oh Tway I forgot to ask. Why do you hate the freedom of a parent to spank their kids, if you don't hate the freedom to murder babies?[/QUOTE]

being allowed to beat someone else isn't freedom, it's oppression.

and I'm pro abortion because fetuses are ugly. And I hate the baby jesus.

[QUOTE=The Tway]wait you're concerned with the delinquency of students on high school sports teams?



being allowed to beat someone else isn't freedom, it's oppression.

and I'm pro abortion because fetuses are ugly. And I hate the baby jesus.[/QUOTE]

Yeah well you were ugly 20 years ago too

[QUOTE]
being allowed to beat someone else isn't freedom, it's oppression.
[/QUOTE]

Since when do children have the freedom to not be "oppressed"? Until they're 15 (it might vary state by state), a child can not legally withdraw from school. Hence compulsory education--the child is required to attend school. Oppression!

A parent is free to limit a child's time spent out of the house, time watching television, time spent browsing the internet, etc. All things that if one adult attempted to do another adult, would be considered oppression.

So how does a parent then lack the legal right to smack their child? Obviously we're not talking about savage beatings.

[QUOTE=Broadway Danny Rose]A parent is free to limit a child's time spent out of the house, time watching television, time spent browsing the internet, etc. All things that if one adult attempted to do another adult, would be considered oppression.

So how does a parent then lack the legal right to smack their child? Obviously we're not talking about savage beatings.[/QUOTE]
Children, by their very nature, need rules and limitations. They do not yet have the knowledge of the world around them and must be disciplined. However, you seem to be equating discipline to oppression which just isn't true. And furthermore, you're comparing non-violent limitations to physical enforcement of those limitations. If we don't allow the use of corporal punishment in the workplace, with full grown adults who know the conequences of their actions, why use force with children who are still developing?

[QUOTE]Since when do children have the freedom to not be "oppressed"? Until they're 15 (it might vary state by state), a child can not legally withdraw from school. Hence compulsory education--the child is required to attend school. Oppression! [/QUOTE] School is not by definition a humiliating and painful experience, though it often seems so. The purpose of an education is not to reinforce punishment, it's to instill knowledge that can be used in the future. School and physical punishment are completely different in their means. Plus, at school a kid is under the jurisdiction of many teachers, with whom the kid can have varying relationships, as opposed to the one or two parents who invoke a slap on the ***

[QUOTE]A parent is free to limit a child's time spent out of the house, time watching television, time spent browsing the internet, etc. All things that if one adult attempted to do another adult, would be considered oppression. [/QUOTE] But none of which include physical pain and humiliation for misdeed. Plus, the thing about oppression of adults is not really comparable--adults in the eyes of the law are free-thinking individuals who have the capabilities and probably the tendencies to move out and live on their own or otherwise reject the punishing forces imposed on them.

I think that hitting your kids is always wrong. It teaches that violence is ok. When I was growing up, my dad would beat the s**t out of me. It solved the problem of whatever I was doing, true.

But I saw how he got what he wanted through violence, so I started using violence to get what I wanted when I was little. Someone says the wrong thing to me, I would get in a fight with them, and win everytime, often hurting the person quite a bit. I was crazy back then, always fighting and hitting people. You know why? Because it worked. No one made fun of me or anything after I got in a few fights. If you teach kids violence is an acceptable solution to problems, they will believe it is.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]School is not by definition a [B]humiliating and painful [/B]experience, though it often seems so. The purpose of an education is not to reinforce punishment, it's to instill knowledge that can be used in the future. School and physical punishment are completely different in their means. Plus, at school a kid is under the jurisdiction of many teachers, with whom the kid can have varying relationships, as opposed to the one or two parents who invoke a slap on the ***

But none of which include physical pain and humiliation for misdeed. Plus, the thing about oppression of adults is not really comparable--adults in the eyes of the law are free-thinking individuals who have the capabilities and probably the tendencies to move out and live on their own or otherwise reject the punishing forces imposed on them.[/QUOTE]

Why is being spanked/slapped a humiliating experience? Sure it is painful but we often learn best through painful situations so i'm not even going there but the only time i ever recall being humiliated by being spanked is when it is was done in front of my friends. And even then, it was the fact that i was being spanked, it was the fact that i got in trouble and cried in front of them. Spanking/smacking isn't a humiliating act in and of itself, only in certain situations and that could be said about anything.

[QUOTE]Why is being spanked/slapped a humiliating experience? Sure it is painful but we often learn best through painful situations so i'm not even going there but the only time i ever recall being humiliated by being spanked is when it is was done in front of my friends. And even then, it was the fact that i was being spanked, it was the fact that i got in trouble and cried in front of them. Spanking/smacking isn't a humiliating act in and of itself, only in certain situations and that could be said about anything.[/QUOTE]

No. Having to give up any resistance so that someone more powerful can harm you is humiliating. It's in the very nature of the act. Do you really think kids learn more from a little tap or the humiliation that comes along with it?

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]Here's the underlying factor:

If a child cannot discern between right and wrong, that is not the child's fault, s/he was more than likely raised incorrectly; it is the parents' fault for not instilling values in their child. If you are so unbelievably primitive as to suggest that a beating is a better way to instill those values then an actual conversation with your own child, then you have clearly failed as a parent.[/QUOTE]

[size=7][b]NOT BEATING[/b][/size]

[QUOTE]
No. Having to give up any resistance so that someone more powerful can harm you is humiliating. It's in the very nature of the act. Do you really think kids learn more from a little tap or the humiliation that comes along with it?
[/QUOTE]

Say you have a 7 year old, and he steals from your mother's house. You'd probably make him confess his wrongdoing to her and return the item. Isn't that humiliated? Put yourself in the kid's shoes--that'd be humiliating. Children don't have the right not to be humiliated. And there's no way that you can honestly say that a few whacks on the butt is more humiliating than the situation I outlined above.

[QUOTE]Since when do children have the freedom to not be "oppressed"? Until they're 15 (it might vary state by state), a child can not legally withdraw from school. Hence compulsory education--the child is required to attend school. Oppression!
[/QUOTE]
no one has the right to be free from all "oppression".

everyone should have the right to be free from all oppression that is done for no net benefit to anyone. Since many people have raised perfectly functional kids without battering them at any point this is oppression carried out for its own sake.

Some people are very sensitive. There are many kids that wont behave as you want them to, and even if you ground them, they wont listen, so a smack is necessary if you have that kind of a child. Its not humiliating, youre not going to hit a child in front of his friends or anything...

no a smack isn't necessary it accomplishes nothing

Maybe we're all wrong, maybe it's right for some kids to be hit and not for others (though i don't personally agree with this) but why can't some kids learn better from being hit and others not?

I don't see how anyone could possibily learn anything by being hit.

YOU don't see how anyone could possibly learn, that's you. Others do see and still, others learn from being hit.....i don't see what the problem is. Let parents raise there kids the way they want. Obviously i'm not saying lets, beat our kids, i'm not saying child abuse should be allowed either. If the abuse is extreme enough to leave bruises, cuts, bleeding then that should be stopped but a little red mark that goes away after a nights worth of sleep is ok. Parents need to raise there kids how they see fit, how they see best and other people should mind their own freakin' business and raise there kids the way they think is the best.

no others are too stupid to have anything to teach their kids anyway so they just slap them around instead.

Hitting them couldn't possibly help. There are many better ways to get a kid's attention that are less barbaric, violent and damaging (children who are hit and beaten by their parents are usually violent themselves.) Take something away from them, ground them so that they can't see any of their friends, refuse to give them anything other than what's needed to live (food, shelter, clothing) until they smarten up. With all of these wonderful punishments, people who just hit their kids look like idiots and lazy parents.

[QUOTE=RNR]Hitting them couldn't possibly help. There are many better ways to get a kid's attention that are less barbaric, violent and damaging (children who are hit and beaten by their parents are usually violent themselves.) Take something away from them, ground them so that they can't see any of their friends, refuse to give them anything other than what's needed to live (food, shelter, clothing) until they smarten up. With all of these wonderful punishments, people who just hit their kids look like idiots and lazy parents.[/QUOTE]
ok for one, they're not hitting them to get their attention. They're being hit becuase they did something wrong. And yes, statistically speaking kids who are "beaten" often are more likely to be violent themselves but look at this way. If it is only mild spanking they're doing, then they'll only grow up to mildly spank (unless if they're some kind of person who can't control themselves in which case they shouldn't be do a whole bunch of things, including parenting in general). There are many times when grounding wouldn't work for me. When my parents would ground me when i was smaller, i would tear up my room. I would throw all the books of the case, i would spread my blankets across the room and dump my toys out on the floor. Sure you say, make him clean it up, but how do you "make" anybody do anything. THey could tell me, they could yell at me, but nothing got across like a good 1,2,3 on my bare butt. Then, even if i didn't clean up my room when i was told to the lesson was still learned, listen to your parents.

Tway Tway Tway.. God bless you man. This is the first time in a long while I've disagreed with you on something. I've forgotten how dimwitted you look to people who disagree with you.

Some kids only learn some things from spanking. If all else fails, what else can you do? Scream bloody murder at the kid? Spanking doesn't mean hitting them upside the head and taking away their food for a day. It just means hey, you did something wrong, and now you'll have to suffer for it. Even girls should be spanked if they're rotten enough. My sisters in law were, and they're terrific people.

I got 2 words for you. Menedez Brothers.

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]Tway Tway Tway.. God bless you man. This is the first time in a long while I've disagreed with you on something. I've forgotten how dimwitted you look to people who disagree with you.

Some kids only learn some things from spanking. If all else fails, what else can you do? Scream bloody murder at the kid? Spanking doesn't mean hitting them upside the head and taking away their food for a day. It just means hey, you did something wrong, and now you'll have to suffer for it. Even girls should be spanked if they're rotten enough. My sisters in law were, and they're terrific people.[/QUOTE]
that's what i'm saying. I mean, after grounding me to my room and me tearing it up and refusing to clean it up, what could they do, ground me longer, tell me to pick it up, yell, scream? No, a quick spanking was a much faster solution that got me moving to clean it up much faster. Also, i learned the lesson much faster, it only took 2-3 times of being spanked before all of that stopped, if they had only screamed and yelled God knows how long it would have taken me to get my act together.

[QUOTE=The Tway]no others are too stupid to have anything to teach their kids anyway so they just slap them around instead.[/QUOTE]

What if your non-physical way doesn't work? You ground him, he gets out of house, you punish him again, still doesn't work, are you still going to keep trying to do it that way.

And you don't have to slap them around, many kids will see a smack or a spanking as a bad thing, so they'll start listening more.

And there are always those kids that are born to be trouble makers, and you can basically beat them half dead, and they'll still be crazy when they get better.

It all depends on a child, but yes, a spanking is sometimes necessary. Words do not work with all children.

[QUOTE=LittlePound]that's what i'm saying. I mean, after grounding me to my room and me tearing it up and refusing to clean it up, what could they do, ground me longer, tell me to pick it up, yell, scream? No, a quick spanking was a much faster solution that got me moving to clean it up much faster. Also, i learned the lesson much faster, it only took 2-3 times of being spanked before all of that stopped, if they had only screamed and yelled God knows how long it would have taken me to get my act together.[/QUOTE]

Yup, basically my point.

People agreeing with me, wow, this new feeling is nice.

[url]http://i4.tinypic.com/110ddhx.jpg[/url]

This needed to be posted.

[QUOTE=LittlePound]People agreeing with me, wow, this new feeling is nice.[/QUOTE]thats because you're used to being spanked

[QUOTE=Diabolus in Musica][url]http://i4.tinypic.com/110ddhx.jpg[/url]

This needed to be posted.[/QUOTE]

lol I remember that......