[QUOTE=Retarded Chipple;14408432]Cool.

I spent the whole lesson working on the moeller technique. My teacher kept saying my elbow was going forwards rather than outwards/sideways on the upstrokes. Then he did it and his elbows did the same :lol: But for some reason I still have to work on them going outwards!

I had this awesome Afro-Cuban beat from last lesson nailed too and I didn't get to show him :([/QUOTE]

moeller is a cunt...

i get told to act like i'm reading the time off a watch

That's a bummer. Esspeccially considering Moeller is such an outdated technique.

You might want to look into finding a teacher that's more in touch with the current century.

[quote=Corkofski;14408508]moeller is a squirrel...

i get told to act like i'm reading the time off a watch[/quote]

My teacher told me the same thing!!!

I just hope it pays off cos I've been working on pretty much nothing but moeller for months with my teacher...

not to mention that when you're learning you look like an absolute dork. My gf was nearly crying from laughing when she saw me practicing the upstroke movement!

[quote=Josiah;14408515]That's a bummer. Esspeccially considering Moeller is such an outdated technique.

You might want to look into finding a teacher that's more in touch with the current century.[/quote]

How is moeller outdated? :confused:

What are the "kids" using these days?

[QUOTE=Josiah;14408515]That's a bummer. Esspeccially considering Moeller is such an outdated technique.

You might want to look into finding a teacher that's more in touch with the current century.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean, outdated? :amaze: Yeah I know, you're going to reply with "it's not the civil war era anymore drumheads have way more rebound now", and I realize that, but I think it's sill a very valid and useful technique.

The entire point of the technique, was to generate head response, in an era where head response as poor.

In today's era, head response is more then most people can take. It's not about creating rebound, it's about controlling it.


So how in the world, could a technique that deals entirelly with creating rebound, be very valid in useful in a age where you already have too much rebound, and absolutely no need to create more?


BTW if you are having trouble performing moeller ona regular snare drum, this is a good reason as to why. You have to put a lot of muscle into making it "look" right, because the sheer rebound of the head is causing the stick to bounce so hard because of all the force.
If you went to use moeller on a de-tuned snare drum, you've suddenly find the technique works well and becomes a very natural motion.

EG: Go watch some DCI snare drummers, they are throwing down an absurd amount of notes, incredibly clean.

[url]http://www.drumhard.com/pages/greganderson.asp[/url]

Check out the video's of Greg. Incredredible amount of notes, amazingly clean, super super fast... no moeller goin on there.

Its about creating rebound? :confused:

I've found that its been more about natural and relaxed body movement etc

:wave:


Evening

[QUOTE=Pleaseme;14408499]Anyone watch 'Death Note' series on youtube? Awesome anime-ish series with a clever story line.[/QUOTE]

I love Death Note!

You into anime?

[quote=Josiah;14408574]The entire point of the technique, was to generate head response, in an era where head response as poor.

In today's era, head response is more then most people can take. It's not about creating rebound, it's about controlling it.


So how in the world, could a technique that deals entirelly with creating rebound, be very valid in useful in a age where you already have too much rebound, and absolutely no need to create more?


BTW if you are having trouble performing moeller ona regular snare drum, this is a good reason as to why. You have to put a lot of muscle into making it "look" right, because the sheer rebound of the head is causing the stick to bounce so hard because of all the force.
If you went to use moeller on a de-tuned snare drum, you've suddenly find the technique works well and becomes a very natural motion.

EG: Go watch some DCI snare drummers, they are throwing down an absurd amount of notes, incredibly clean.

[url]http://www.drumhard.com/pages/greganderson.asp[/url]

Check out the video's of Greg. Incredredible amount of notes, amazingly clean, super super fast... no moeller goin on there.[/quote]
So could it possible by applicable for playing fast doubles and such on lower tuned drums?

Even Ebe.. it's late morning here!
[quote=Retarded Chipple;14408623]Its about creating rebound? :confused:

I've found that its been more about natural and relaxed body movement etc[/quote]


Natural movements, and relaxed movements should be every movement.

Inside that group of movements, we have a few particular ones.. Trad Grip, Matched Grip, French, Tap Notes, Accent Notes, DoubleStroke, Rimshot, etc etc

The concept of moeller is to create a whip out of the stick, the motion of a whip creates an incredible amount of force, this was needed just to get a few rebounded notes.


Now a days.. you can just drop the stick and get 5 clean notes. So obviouslly, we don't need to hit the drums with that kind of force anymore.

Thanks very much to Remo, DuPont and the advancing world of plastics.

New Snare head and drum sticks came today.

[QUOTE=maniac0796;14408754]New Snare head and drum sticks came today.[/QUOTE]

Congrats.


How you doing maniac?


If you are interested, there are new pics in the EUB thread.

[QUOTE=Josiah;14408661]Even Ebe.. it's late morning here!



Natural movements, and relaxed movements should be every movement.

Inside that group of movements, we have a few particular ones.. Trad Grip, Matched Grip, French, Tap Notes, Accent Notes, DoubleStroke, Rimshot, etc etc

The concept of moeller is to create a whip out of the stick, the motion of a whip creates an incredible amount of force, this was needed just to get a few rebounded notes.


Now a days.. you can just drop the stick and get 5 clean notes. So obviouslly, we don't need to hit the drums with that kind of force anymore.

Thanks very much to Remo, DuPont and the advancing world of plastics.[/QUOTE]

True.

I'll review it with my teacher and see what he thinks. Cheers.

[quote=ebe9;14408786]Congrats.


How you doing maniac?


If you are interested, there are new pics in the EUB thread.[/quote]

I'm okay Ebe! You?

And cool, I'll go sneak a peak now,

[quote=TTTSNB;14408649]So could it possible by applicable for playing fast doubles and such on lower tuned drums?[/quote]

There would be some point there. Though, even a 14" tom has a lot of rebound., plus.. A lil extra kick from the fingers, is much more efficient then a massive arm movement.

The same thing that is evening out your 3's and 4's, will even out your muddy tom doubles.




However, using big whip strokes is great for showmanship!

One thing that confused me was my teacher kept telling me to keep my fingers wrapped around the stick. Like completely. I normally have the fulcrum between the thumb and index finger (kinda pinching the stick) with the rest of the fingers loosely wrapped around so the stick has a little bit of leeway and movement in my hand. But he was telling me this was wrong???


Also, if moeller is outdated, why do so many players use it still? Jojo Mayer, Steve Smith etc

Haha well..

Let's go back really. See Moeller is the description of a very efficient motion in physics, the whip.

Now because of the rebound in drums now, when you play relaxed and naturally, you will see that motion come into play as a result. It's not that Jo-Jo is trying to whip the stick into the drum to generate as much rebound as possible, it's simply that the whip motion is the naturally occuring motion when you DO have lots of rebound.

If you watch guys fly around the set, it literally looks like whips moving. Fast clean singles on a snare, look like fans in the air.

It's about physics, if you look at and study the physics of motion and rebound, things start to make a lot more sense with playing drums.


What I'm saying when I say 'moeller is outdated' is the concept of using the whip motion to put alot of force into the stick, with the intention of generating rebound is outdated. We already got plenty of rebound.

Using a whip motion should be occuring, but that should be a natural fallout from playing relaxed and comfortable.



As to your grip issues. Well I'll tell you right off the bat, that's horrible. You should always maintain a loose and relaxed grip. Essentially, if yous tand up right now and grab your sticks, let your arms hang at your sides and loosen your grip til the sticks just fall out of your hand. Now do it again, but just don't let the sticks fall out. That right there is what your grip should be while playing.

It's the balance of the sticks freedom to move and the hands and fingers manipulating that motion.

You were absolutely correct in your idea about gripping the stick. You were not wrong at all.


Hard gripping the stick is VERY VERY dangerous. NEVER play that way. EVER. The only times a hard or solid grip is appropriate is when focusing on the wrist movement using very particular excerises.


Of course, you don't have to take my word for it either. Please don't actually, check out Dom's Cyber lessons on VicFirth.com
Watch the grip ones, and esspeccially study the ones with Chapin. Look how he holds the sticks, very veryloose. Now watch the ones too where he talks about for the "hard hitter", even looser of a grip!! They look ready to fall out of his hands!

That is [I]the[/I] Jim Chapin. Nobody argues with that man, he's the authority. He's 82 or 3 in those videos and still tearing it up.

Awsome post josiah im gonna check him out now!

[QUOTE=the_pure_drummer;14408998]Awsome post josiah im gonna check him out now![/QUOTE]


Jojo, Dom, Or Chapin?

I love Jojo and Dom, and but I've not the faintest idea who Jim Chapin is..

Jos...care to fill me in?

[QUOTE=Punkdrummer...;14409017]Jojo, Dom, Or Chapin?

I love Jojo and Dom, and but I've not the faintest idea who Jim Chapin is..

Jos...care to fill me in?[/QUOTE]

D[b][/b]:

Chapin = The Jesus of Jazz

[QUOTE=Punkdrummer...;14408630]I love Death Note!

You into anime?[/QUOTE]

Not hugely but a mate told me to watch Death Note and now I'm hooked! Such a clever storyline. Also started watching Full metal alchemist and something else, can't remember what though.

Regarding Moeller technique, my teacher showed me how much easier it is to move away from the 'safe area' of the snare drum and start moving around the kit more, using Moeller. I find the whip, tap and upstroke very natural in feel once I got the basics down. I see how the exaggerated whip motion to gain rebound is outdated, and my teacher demonstrated various triplet combos and 5 stroke roll combos, where the whip is used primarily to accent the note and gain feel.

Sup hold?

[quote=Josiah;14408837]There would be some point there. Though, even a 14" tom has a lot of rebound., plus.. A lil extra kick from the fingers, is much more efficient then a massive arm movement.

The same thing that is evening out your 3's and 4's, will even out your muddy tom doubles.




However, using big whip strokes is great for showmanship![/quote]
Yeah... when properly tuned at least. When I got my new drumkit...it was tuned so insanely low and dead...you'd probably have to use some kind of moeller to get any rebound out of them, hah.

[quote=Punkdrummer...;14409017]Jojo, Dom, Or Chapin?

I love Jojo and Dom, and but I've not the faintest idea who Jim Chapin is..

Jos...care to fill me in?[/quote]

He wrote Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer, pretty much the man when it comes to jazz playing or teaching.

[QUOTE=Pleaseme;14409042]Not hugely but a mate told me to watch Death Note and now I'm hooked! Such a clever storyline. Also started watching Full metal alchemist and something else, can't remember what though. [/QUOTE]

FMA's good, too.
Ya should check out some more stuff and see if ya dig it. Hmmmm..Rorouni Kenshin's a good show. Naruto's good, but the english version is horribly lame. Onepiece, Flame Of Recca, Bleach, Inuyasha..

All of that stuff pretty shounen-esque(aimed at young male audiences, literally means "boy" i think.). Lot's of fighting and such.

[quote=Josiah;14408975]Haha well..

Let's go back really. See Moeller is the description of a very efficient motion in physics, the whip.

Now because of the rebound in drums now, when you play relaxed and naturally, you will see that motion come into play as a result. It's not that Jo-Jo is trying to whip the stick into the drum to generate as much rebound as possible, it's simply that the whip motion is the naturally occuring motion when you DO have lots of rebound.

If you watch guys fly around the set, it literally looks like whips moving. Fast clean singles on a snare, look like fans in the air.

It's about physics, if you look at and study the physics of motion and rebound, things start to make a lot more sense with playing drums.


What I'm saying when I say 'moeller is outdated' is the concept of using the whip motion to put alot of force into the stick, with the intention of generating rebound is outdated. We already got plenty of rebound.

Using a whip motion should be occuring, but that should be a natural fallout from playing relaxed and comfortable. [/quote]

Again, cheers man!



[quote]As to your grip issues. Well I'll tell you right off the bat, that's horrible. You should always maintain a loose and relaxed grip. Essentially, if yous tand up right now and grab your sticks, let your arms hang at your sides and loosen your grip til the sticks just fall out of your hand. Now do it again, but just don't let the sticks fall out. That right there is what your grip should be while playing.

It's the balance of the sticks freedom to move and the hands and fingers manipulating that motion.

You were absolutely correct in your idea about gripping the stick. You were not wrong at all.


Hard gripping the stick is VERY VERY dangerous. NEVER play that way. EVER. The only times a hard or solid grip is appropriate is when focusing on the wrist movement using very particular excerises.


Of course, you don't have to take my word for it either. Please don't actually, check out Dom's Cyber lessons on VicFirth.com
Watch the grip ones, and esspeccially study the ones with Chapin. Look how he holds the sticks, very veryloose. Now watch the ones too where he talks about for the "hard hitter", even looser of a grip!! They look ready to fall out of his hands!

That is [I]the[/I] Jim Chapin. Nobody argues with that man, he's the authority. He's 82 or 3 in those videos and still tearing it up.[/quote]I've watched those vids and some others around the vicfirth site and thats pretty much where I get my grip from. I just stood up and held my sticks by my side like you said and that felt exactly like how I normally play.

In my lesson today, I was shown full strokes where you "throw" the stick down then let it bounce back up. I was kinda familiar with this from watching Doms vids and other sources and when I went to do it, my teacher kept telling me to stop opening my non-fulcrum fingers at the point of impact between the stick and the head. This is what I found difficult to do as my fingers would naturally open a little bit in order to give the stick some room in my hand so it would bounce up by itself. If I kept my fingers firm around the stick, I found it would choke the bounce and not come back to the upright position. So I came home kinda confused today. Especially as I swear my teacher claimed he was taught by one of Chapins students. :confused: Could be wrong though!!!

EDIT: in the past I was given like a pre-moeller exercise in which I had to do page 1 of Stick Control doing full strokes using my wrists only with a really tight grip on the sticks. I had to keep my fingers firmly wrapped around the stick, almost tense. The aim was so that I could train my wrists up and not use any fingers or arm to play the stroke. It all came from the wrists and felt very horrible to play. :lol: The choked feeling (and sound, surprisingly) of the stick hitting the pad and bringing the stick back up whilst you have a tense, solid grip feels disgusting when you're so used to letting it bounce back up!

Hello!

Um...hey!

How's your rash you told me about on msn?