vietnam 2: iraq

New topic:

The legalize marijuana intiative got defeated. :angry:

It's not a Vietnam because we have a economic reason to be there, not a good reason or even a legitmate reason but a reason. Vietnam was purely us being dumbf[size="2"]u[/size]cks and deciding to intervene in a war that had absolutely nothing to do with us. I also know many people who are veterans of this war because the life expectancy of a soldier in Iraq is astronomically better than that of Vietnam soldiers.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;13593400]New topic:

The legalize marijuana intiative got defeated. :angry:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, st[size="2"]i[/size]ngy f[size="2"]u[/size]cks. I was hoping this would pass then sweep the nation in 2008, and I would be able to toke freely.

obviously it's not the same but there are parallels in the way the war is fought, and the difficulties in finishing what we started.

The only similarity I see is the unpopularity, the administration being very close-minded, and going into war which had nothing to with us.

And fighting a war in a place that is completely different on a cultural level

there are many, the fighting itself is similar albeit completely different terrain.

more importantly it's vietnam esque in the way that we don't seem to have a really good idea of what to do now that we're in.

Yeah, we went into Vietnam with a stupid "OMG DEYR COMMIES LETS GETUM!!!" mentality, and got raped for more than half of a decade.

Now everyone shhhh, [I]Jericho[/I] is on.

It's similar in the fact that the psychological effects on the minds of our troops have drive them to violate ethical principles of war.

I ended up missing like, every other 5 minutes of Jericho, now I have to wait until tomorrow.

Democrats won in Virginia.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;13593343]I definitely do not agree with the cut and run ideal and I think most of the Democratic party knows that cutting and running would do more damage then good. Leaving Iraq in shambles would serve as a breeding ground for terrorism and basically make us more enemies than when we went in. But the fact is, secretarian violence is killing our troops and something needs to be done about it. I personally think Joe Biden's proposition should be looked into. But the bottom line, there is far too much secretarian violence and the newly formed Iraqi govt cannot handle it. Especially seeing how their police forces are made up of Sunnis who have the people of Iraq dumbfounded as to whom to trust because they see Shi'ite's being murdered by Sunni extremists in Iraqi police garb.

As far as environmental policy, I think the Democrats are more in favor of alternative energy sources than the big business GOP. A few days ago, George Bush all but stated that we were still in Iraq because we want control of their oil reserves.[/QUOTE]
i like that you have informed opinions. too many people have strong opinions but no real understanding. ya, i'm thinking something along the lines of biden's plan will probably be the way to go. although, point five of his "five-point plan", the withdraw of most troops within a little over a year, i don't agree with at all. there still will be strong actors inside iraq working against any compromise. putting any date on a troop withdraw will work against us, no matter what the plan being put in place is. and i think the role iran would play in that situation needs to be considered very thoroughly, particularly the relation they would form with the shi'a area.

subtledagger, i believe the government has a role in establishing reasonable environmental regulations, and most importantly, in encouraging technological innovations to address the problems. i don't believe it should enact strict measures that would harm the economy. if the segments of society that place value on this issue aren't willing to make sacrifices for it, then how is it fair for the government to force the country as a whole to bear the burden?

and ben, washington's farewell address is very misunderstood. that section of it has no relevance to today's world. it was intended to protect us. the united states wasn't powerful. getting involved in europe's wars would likely have ended very badly for us. we needed to grow up. we weren't even a great power, let alone the leading power, until the mid 19th century. now we are the greatest power in the world. we can't withdraw from world politics. having an empire in the world, especially one as comparatively benevolent as us, is good for the world. for example, the world advanced greatly under the british, who we inherited world leadership from. it has similarly advanced with us as the world power. on the other hand, take the clearest case in history of hegemonic collapse without a natural successor, the fall of the roman empire. western civilization by most general accounts was set back centuries. in general, civilization advances under empire, not apolarity. and better us than if we had let the soviet union dominate the world, or possibly china in the years to come.

Ok, I understand the relevance of what Washington was saying at the time, the growing favortism of the Federalists to Britain and Republicans to France etc., however, this would have ensured our country peace if we had chosen to stay out of the imperialism rush of the late 19th century and early 20th century. Yes it would be completely impossible to instantaneously withdraw as the superpower, yet this doesn't touch the fact that we can slowly withdraw over a period of time. It is possible to be a neutral country in today's society, please have a look at Switzerland. We need to pull out of Iraq because as Chris stated it's going down the s[size="2"]h[/size]itter anyways along with that entire region, better to get out now then have to waste more American lives. People have anger and direct military and terrorist actions at this country because we have a hand in all international affairs and allow our citizens to claim that we are the greatest nation in the world. This war on terror is nothing unique really, if during the 19th century there was the technology available today Great Britain or Prussia/Germany (depending on what part of the century) would be conducting a war on terror because of the uprisings and rebellions that would happen throughout it's colonies. I also again want to state how ignorant it is for our nation to be at with "terror". I could declare today that I am at war with racism but know that it will never be eradicated. So by declaring war on something so vague and large the government is merely setting itself up for a fall. Politicians or rednecks or flag humping people may call me a coward but I believe in cut and run I am not willing to have another soldier meet their untimely demise by Iraqi insurgency because our government is trying to create a puppet government in Iraq right now. If you do not believe that a puppet government is what is trying to be created please think about it, yes we are trying to create a government friendly to ours, but with all the violence that is occuring military officials have basically been in command of Iraq. I would rather have our soldiers home alive and our politicians called cowards because we withdrew then have more families grieving over the loss of their children/parents/siblings. Life is a bit more precious to me than power.

you can't just cut and run though. this might be a pretty damn controversial oppinion but us soldiers enlist with the knowledge of the dangers of war, and i think that pulling all of the troops out at this moment is the wrong idea.

the problem is that with our country's "mission statement" (if you would call it that) after leaving iraq there would be extreme hostility and civil war, which really is a bad thing for our image / foreign policy and politics. if anything we need to hold our ground at least until the time is right, which to be honest seems more and more like a date that will never arrive due to lacking supplies for troops / and a resilient enemy that really doesn't seem like it's gonna just give up

Yeah, all soldiers know the dangers of war, but they don't believe they're going to die.

That's the point, I used to believe that we should wait until the time is right, but that time is not going to come. Our image may take a hit, but that civil war was going to come no matter what. I may get sh[size="2"]i[/size]t on for saying this, but if they want war let them have it.

Guys, start talking about emo.

I WUV HAWTHORNE HEIGHTS

So I thought about my ex a couple weeks ago and wrote a poem, is that emo enough for you Justin?

I wrote a poem about my girlfriend's boobs the other day.

Which Hot Water Music records are their best? I already have [i]Caution[/i], which I love.

[I]A Flight and a Crash[/I]

Sometimes I slit my wrists...........hahaha, psh. I don't like what the word "emo" has turned into. The original emo was nothing like hawthorne heights or anything like it.

You're preaching to the choir

vincent welcome to the board! nice hair i used to have mine like that but i got it cut :-(

but u kno not evry1 can have tastes like us u kno? whrd you learn so much about emo in japan u know more than i do and i live in the us

:-*

[QUOTE=whiteminority;13600478][I]A Flight and a Crash[/I][/QUOTE]

I need to hear more of their old stuff. I have the three epitaph studio albums and I especially love [i]AFAAC[/i].

I need someone to hook me up with all their old sh[size=2]i[/size]t.

...

Gotta wake up at 6 tomorrow to go to a talk for Westinghouse Science thing about the process used to identify Czar Nicholas.

Mare is so f[I]u[/I]cking cool.

I hope to god, they acutally release an LP

[QUOTE=whiteminority;13600346]So I thought about my ex a couple weeks ago and wrote a poem, is that emo enough for you Justin?[/QUOTE]

Definitely. That's so emo, it's almost TOO emo.

Lincoln rules hard

HARD

The drummer from Gospel is more insane than I remembered.

Drummer from Gospel is ridic good.