I don't see how Slipknot and Mudvayne aren't metal. Granted they have lots of various influences but they're core sound is metal and in my opinion are heavier than thin sounding bands like CoB.

Heavy doesn't make it metal, a lot of hardcore is much heavier than metal. I think Nu-metal is about as metal as hardcore is, which is not much but I can understand why people get it mixed up.

[QUOTE=IheartSP]Heavy doesn't make it metal, a lot of hardcore is much heavier than metal. I think Nu-metal is about as metal as hardcore is, which is not much but I can understand why people get it mixed up.[/QUOTE]

What hardcore band is heavier than any metal band in the past 20 years?

Also I wouldn't consider In Flames melodic death, they're metalcore.

^ Ringworm is pretty damn heavy.

^^^what? In Flames are Gothenburg and that's it.


If you say Trivium or Hatebreed you're about to make yourself look very stupid, just a warning.

Trivium isn't hardcore lol and although I'd like to call Hatebreed hardcore enough people on mx make a fuss that I generally stay away from that. I don't really know any hardcore bands but I've gone to local shows and I'd say the bands are all much heavier than any power metal band by a good margin.

In Flames is not metalcore. Converge is metalcore. Avenged Sevenfold is metalcore. Overcast is metalcore. Rambo is metalcore. Municipal Waste is metalcore. Aftershock is metalcore.

In Flames is freaking Gothenburg metal.

Hatebreed is not hardcore, they're just really bad metal. Really really bad metal.

Some hardcore: Minor Threat, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Get To The Chopper, Carpenter Ant, Suicidal Tendencies, Limpwrist, etc.

[QUOTE=Moses]I don't see how Slipknot and Mudvayne aren't metal. Granted they both suck but they're core sound is metal .[/QUOTE]

Fixed.

I think people get more hung up on wanting to think metal is some kind of sacred label and don't want bands they dislike to taint their precious bubble of music.

Well power metal is pretty light anyway.

Seriously Ringworm is some good hardcore.

[QUOTE=Luc214]Well power metal is pretty light anyway.

Seriously Ringworm is some good hardcore.[/QUOTE]

I know Ringworm, I can't remember them atm though.

Power Metal, light?

Kalmah? Bodom? Norther? Dragonforce? Eternal Tears of Sorrow? Symphony X?

Those bands are pretty heavy imo.

[QUOTE=Eleventeen]In Flames is not metalcore. Converge is metalcore. Avenged Sevenfold is metalcore. Overcast is metalcore. Rambo is metalcore. Municipal Waste is metalcore. Aftershock is metalcore.

In Flames is freaking Gothenburg metal.

Hatebreed is not hardcore, they're just really bad metal. Really really bad metal.

Some hardcore: Minor Threat, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Get To The Chopper, Carpenter Ant, Suicidal Tendencies, Limpwrist, etc.[/QUOTE]
Municipal Waste is crossover.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]Fixed.
[/QUOTE]
Mudvayne's first album is great and the second is good.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]Fixed.

I think people get more hung up on wanting to think metal is some kind of sacred label and don't want bands they dislike to taint their precious bubble of music.[/QUOTE]
Metal [I]is[/I] a sacred label :lol:

I will admit Slipknot has metal [I]influence[/I] but they aren't metal enough to be considered Metal. No matter how much I hate it I do give Nu-Metal credit for being original, it doesn't sound like much else that came before it, and that includes Metal as one of the things it doesnt sound like. It seems like its just really hard rock with all the blues filtered out of it replaced with strange dissonant chords (Korn is a good example) and rap based beats and vocals.

EDIT: I want to respect everyone's maturity in this little debate going on between all these people. MX is usually known for some ugly arguments but this all seems pretty constructive and flameless, congrats MX.

[QUOTE=Freezing Moon]Municipal Waste is crossover.[/QUOTE]

Crossover = thrash + hardcore?

thrash = metal? hardcore = hardcore?

metalcore = metal + hardcore, I think crossover is a retarded label.

Despite what you think about the label. MC sound nothing like a metalcore band at all though. Crossover is their genre.

[QUOTE=IheartSP]Metal [I]is[/I] a sacred label :lol:

I will admit Slipknot has metal [I]influence[/I] but they aren't metal enough to be considered Metal. No matter how much I hate it I do give Nu-Metal credit for being original, it doesn't sound like much else that came before it, and that includes Metal as one of the things it doesnt sound like. It seems like its just really hard rock with all the blues filtered out of it replaced with strange dissonant chords (Korn is a good example) and rap based beats and vocals.[/QUOTE]
Okay, lets just do this by pure characteristics of these bands...

Slipknot:
Sloppy but heavy doublebass
Distorted riff based music
Guitars high in the mix
Abrasive vocals
Metalstyle progression

Mudvayne:
Great metal drumming
Metal vocals
Bass driven
Distorted guitar riffs

[QUOTE=Luc214]Well power metal is pretty light anyway. [/QUOTE]

Listen to Iced Earth and Sabaton.

[QUOTE=Moses]Mudvayne's first album is great and the second is good.[/QUOTE]

I did that as more of a joke than anything.

[QUOTE=IheartSP]I will admit Slipknot has metal [I]influence[/I] but they aren't metal enough to be considered Metal. No matter how much I hate it I do give Nu-Metal credit for being original, it doesn't sound like much else that came before it, and that includes Metal as one of the things it doesnt sound like. It seems like its just really hard rock with all the blues filtered out of it replaced with strange dissonant chords (Korn is a good example) and rap based beats and vocals.[/QUOTE]

But did not metal start out as very dissonant hard rock?

[QUOTE=Steerpike]I did that as more of a joke than anything.
[/QUOTE]
I know, I know.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]Listen to Iced Earth and Sabaton.



I did that as more of a joke than anything.



But did not metal start out as very dissonant hard rock?[/QUOTE]
Heavy Metal wasn't dissonant, they didn't use strange intervals combined with heavy distortion (aka the sound of cats dying), and just becuase it had rock influence doesn't make rock part of Metal. Sabbath, Priest and Maiden evolved that hard rock sound but the key word is evolved, metal in it's purest form has nothing to do with rock.

What do you mean purest forms? A lot of metal bands today use bluesy solos, which a lot of rock n' roll bands used.

[QUOTE=Eleventeen]Fair enough, but nu-metal is still metal, whether you like it or not.[/QUOTE]

I'll have to agree with this, along with what Steerpike said above.

Fair enough, but nu-metal is still metal, whether you like it or not.

[QUOTE=Eleventeen]Fair enough, but nu-metal is still metal, whether you like it or not.[/QUOTE]
Metal that has been messed with and combined with so much non-metal that it's hardly metal anymore.

[QUOTE=Freezing Moon]Metal that has been messed with and combined with so much non-metal that it's hardly metal anymore.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how it was even really messed with, I don't think it started as Metal at all, it really doesn't sound very close.

Just becuase Metal bands use bluesey solos don't make bluesey solos Metal, it's just genre mixing.

[QUOTE=IheartSP]I don't see how it was even really messed with, I don't think it started as Metal at all, it really doesn't sound very close.

Just becuase Metal bands use bluesey solos don't make bluesey solos Metal, it's just genre mixing.[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends how you look at it.

You see it as a bunch of thing with metal thrown into it, Eleventeen sees it as metal with a bunch of things thrown into it.

I personally see it as not worth listening to either way, but that's just me.

Right now I'm listening to Sevendust and it's definately hard rock so I guess it depends on the band. I don't even consider them nu-metal even though they're thrown in with the bunch.

My theory is you need to be at least 50% Metal to be called Metal, and whether it is Metal with a bunch of jibber jabber thrown on or a bunch of jibber jabber with some Metal in there, it's still not the majority.

[QUOTE=Freezing Moon]I guess it depends how you look at it.

You see it as a bunch of thing with metal thrown into it, Eleventeen sees it as metal with a bunch of things thrown into it.

I personally see it as not worth listening to either way, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]

You basically got it down to the way I see it, and thus proved that our opinions are so completely different, yet you did it tactfully which I freaking respect.

Plus you introduced me to Blut Aus Nord :D.

Well bands obviously have different amounts of things thrown in and Sevendust has not much metal aside from some of the verse riffage, yet most people think they're nu-metal with which I disagree. As Steerpike said long ago, nu-metal was more of a movement than a genre.

I don't really like that whole, "nu-metal" is a movement thing, because most of the bands were either nu-metal or alternative metal and people couldn't tell the difference.

My way to define nu-metal, oldschool Korn, Spineshank, Deftones, Taproot, Mudvayne, E. Town Concrete (though they suck), most bands like that who formed around 1992-1996.

[QUOTE=IheartSP]Heavy Metal wasn't dissonant, they didn't use strange intervals combined with heavy distortion (aka the sound of cats dying), and just becuase it had rock influence doesn't make rock part of Metal. Sabbath, Priest and Maiden evolved that hard rock sound but the key word is evolved, metal in it's purest form has nothing to do with rock.[/QUOTE]

Many early metal bands were fond of using the flat fifth interval to create a heavier, more dissonant sound. They also used higher levels of distortion to get heavier riffage and controlled feedback to create more intense solos. They essentially stepped up everything that came before them to the next level.

For me, what defines metal is this hard rock/heavy backbone on which the musicians continue to experiment with new paradigms in heaviness.

Thrash metal uses the visceral elements of punk.
Black metal uses low-key production and speed with inhuman vocals to create a cacophanous sound.
Death metal shoves everything to the breaking point, drums, guitars, bass, vocals, the whole package.
Power metal seeks to pioneer the highest level of melodic sensibility in heavy music.
Nu-metal is on the episode side of the spectrum experimenting with rhythm centric music by fusing it with styles that have distinct rhythmic styles.