[QUOTE]It's not really, if you're actually paying attention. I live in a town where you can't keep a house cheaper the 300,000 dollars, which makes it quite high-class, and yet the number of blatantly stupid, apathetic kids that populate the high school is overwhelming. You'd think that even in higher-class areas this would be less of a problem, but it's gone so far that the school is spending valuable dollars on drug-sniffing dogs for school events.[/QUOTE]

One of my friends goes to beverly hills high and he says theres basically no control. The kids are all rich enough to have their own cars and they come and go whenever they want. Teachers are either overly impressed by the parents power and money or are just ineffective. Plus kids are rich enough to get all sorts of drugs all the time.

[QUOTE=thedeadwalk!]I realize with the above example I may have just gotten a raw deal and biological lessons aren't the same as moral or social ones. But, where do you go once the first spanking doesn't help?[/QUOTE]

I realise that spanking isn't the be all and end all solution for punishment, but as a last resort it [i]should[/i] be effective. Violence is a universal language, and whilst children aren't lab rats, they will (or should) understand that when a certain action = pain, they shouldn't do that action.

In the same way, where do you go once the alternative solution doesn't help? Swings both ways. Whilst the knife example could be prevented, and was probably a bad example, all kids will present their parents with behaviour the parents see as unpermittable. The bad times WILL come, like it or not.

I also agree that children are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for. But they are only kids after all, and I don't think we neccesarily should burden them with responsibilites so young. I mean, I loved my carefree days, when my only responsibility was to keep myself entertained.

Some problems, like your mentioned one, simply cannot be helped. Toilet training for example. The child has to learn, and things like toilet training would not involve spanking in my mind. Encouragement and praise for success are what is needed here.

I think with the fall of real punishment in kids, they've grown up expecting no punishment, only reward. I mean, kids in the UK can get [i]paid[/i] for going to sixth form! (school at 17-18). PAID! How in the hell can you justify paying children to impart knowledge unto them! That's ridiculous in my eyes, but these days, kids are just........bleh. My kid's going to be good whether his backside is flayed raw!!!:angry: :p

[QUOTE=Lupus]I have no problem with parents punishing their children physically...in moderation, but I don't think teachers in schools should have this power.[/QUOTE]

I remember when I was in second grade in Bosnia, my teacher pulled my ear. haha that was one punishment when you don't follow rules. It's not that bad though. I enjoyed it. :naughty:

Seriously though, I'm not sure whether I am against or for the reasonable physical punishment of kids in school.

[QUOTE=Pastorius]I realise that spanking isn't the be all and end all solution for punishment, but as a last resort it [i]should[/i] be effective. Violence is a universal language, and whilst children aren't lab rats, they will (or should) understand that when a certain action = pain, they shouldn't do that action.

In the same way, where do you go once the alternative solution doesn't help? Swings both ways. Whilst the knife example could be prevented, and was probably a bad example, all kids will present their parents with behaviour the parents see as unpermittable. The bad times WILL come, like it or not.[/quote]
It does work both ways, but with non-violent discipline there are loads of outlets for reform; with violence, there is only escalation. I agree bad times will come, but not that spanking in any form is a necessary part of ending it (I don't even want to hint at possible psychological/physical problems being part of my motivation, I just don't see spanking as functional in the process of teaching).

[QUOTE=Pastorius]I also agree that children are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for. But they are only kids after all, and I don't think we neccesarily should burden them with responsibilites so young. I mean, I loved my carefree days, when my only responsibility was to keep myself entertained.[/quote]
I'm not implying anything so harsh as a child working for their meals, just rather menial tasks, in our eyes, such as loading the dishwasher after we've cleaned them, making sure the doors and windows are locked, getting ingredients for dinner, etc. Give them the sense they have control over different areas and they'll be less inclined to exercise their control with "no!" or bad behavior.

[QUOTE=Pastorius]Some problems, like your mentioned one, simply cannot be helped. Toilet training for example. The child has to learn, and things like toilet training would not involve spanking in my mind. Encouragement and praise for success are what is needed here.

I think with the fall of real punishment in kids, they've grown up expecting no punishment, only reward. I mean, kids in the UK can get [i]paid[/i] for going to sixth form! (school at 17-18). PAID! How in the hell can you justify paying children to impart knowledge unto them! That's ridiculous in my eyes, but these days, kids are just........bleh.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say the lack of punishment (though I don't consider discipline and punishment always interchangable) has fostered the growth of the inherent right children feel to reward. I believe a lot of parents have mistaken some scholarly information of positve reinforcement and warped it into something just as bad as abuse, which they in turn indoctrine their children to be accustomed to.

[QUOTE=Pastorius]My kid's going to be good whether his backside is flayed raw!!!:angry: :p[/quote]
I wholeheeartedly agree that too many kids feel entitled to too many things without earning it, and our disagreement is minor since we do agree that education is the foremost part of discipline (we just differ on its best enforcement, actually, only at the latter stages of enforcement).

I'm just glad there aren't any people advocating a "broken windows" type method of child-rearing. The spankers here at least want to teach as well as whip a little a[SIZE="2"]s[/SIZE]s should they find it necessary (not that it is :cool:).

If a teacher struck my child, i'd kick their ***.

State sponsored physical abuse? I like it!

Here's the underlying factor:

If a child cannot discern between right and wrong, that is not the child's fault, s/he was more than likely raised incorrectly; it is the parents' fault for not instilling values in their child. If you are so unbelievably primitive as to suggest that a beating is a better way to instill those values then an actual conversation with your own child, then you have clearly failed as a parent.

I love how alot of people in this thread seem to think that kids are less respectfull than they were a generation ago.. just like the previous generation thought their kids were less respectfull than their earlier generation, and so on, and so on.. If this is so true, and has been going on for 2000 years, then how come complete anarchy hasn't broken out yet?

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]I love how alot of people in this thread seem to think that kids are less respectfull than they were a generation ago.. just like the previous generation thought their kids were less respectfull than their earlier generation, and so on, and so on.. If this is so true, and has been going on for 2000 years, then how come complete anarchy hasn't broken out yet?[/QUOTE]
No I disagree- kids these days are much worse. I spoken to multiple teachers at my school and- one of them who'd been working there 20+ years and has said she's never seen it worse than this in the past couple of years. It's awful- and our school is the leading one in the county.

[QUOTE=Herbert_da_fish]No I disagree- kids these days are much worse. I spoken to multiple teachers at my school and- one of them who'd been working there 20+ years and has said she's never seen it worse than this in the past couple of years. It's awful- and our school is the leading one in the county.[/QUOTE]
I second this statement.

That and the worst they got in the 19 and 1860's were race riots, not cursing out a teacher because it was "cool."

[QUOTE]No I disagree- kids these days are much worse. I spoken to multiple teachers at my school and- one of them who'd been working there 20+ years and has said she's never seen it worse than this in the past couple of years. It's awful- and our school is the leading one in the county.[/QUOTE]

this is a function of old people being bitchy, not anything she says being true.

[QUOTE]That and the worst they got in the 19 and 1860's were race riots, not cursing out a teacher because it was "cool."[/QUOTE]

cursing is worse than riots

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]I love how alot of people in this thread seem to think that kids are less respectfull than they were a generation ago.. just like the previous generation thought their kids were less respectfull than their earlier generation, and so on, and so on..[/QUOTE]

Maybe not, but I know a hell of a lot of members of my generation are less respectful than me.

[QUOTE]this is a function of old people being bitchy, not anything she says being true. [/QUOTE]
Why the hell would she lie about that? She was telling the truth. It's not just her either- a lot of the teachers I've spoken to have been saying it aswell.

[QUOTE=Herbert_da_fish]Why the hell would she lie about that? She was telling the truth. It's not just her either- a lot of the teachers I've spoken to have been saying it aswell.[/QUOTE]

Generally when people say things were better in the 'old days' they seem to be looking back at things through rose-tainted glasses. If kids were so much better in those days, then how come punishments like caning were put to use?

As for the thread's original topic, lightly smacking a child should only be used when they listen to reason and other punishments have failed, and only then when they're old enough to understand that they're messing around and shouldn't be.

[QUOTE=The_Passenger]Generally when people say things were better in the 'old days' they seem to be looking back at things through rose-tainted glasses. If kids were so much better in those days, then how come punishments like caning were put to use?

As for the thread's original topic, lightly smacking a child should only be used when they listen to reason and other punishments have failed, and only then when they're old enough to understand that they're messing around and shouldn't be.[/QUOTE]
No it's not like that. Trust me. The kids we have at our school now- they just make me sick.

If you honestly believe that kids now a days are that much worse than 50 years ago, you're honestly quite naive..

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]If you honestly believe that kids now a days are that much worse than 50 years ago, you're honestly quite naive..[/QUOTE]
I wasn't alive 50 years ago. I'm speaking from the time I've been in school- 12 years. Just out of interest what country do you live in?

[QUOTE]Why the hell would she lie about that? She was telling the truth. It's not just her either- a lot of the teachers I've spoken to have been saying it aswell.[/QUOTE]

old people are bitchy. She doesn't mean to lie, she's just bitter.

[QUOTE=Herbert_da_fish]Why the hell would she lie about that? She was telling the truth. It's not just her either- a lot of the teachers I've spoken to have been saying it aswell.[/QUOTE]
Not lie, but perceive things in a nostalgic, distorted way.

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]If you honestly believe that kids now a days are that much worse than 50 years ago, you're honestly quite naive..[/QUOTE]
Quite. Read any book about boys/teenagers written in the 40s or 50s, including any that are required high school reading.

[QUOTE=Knifeboy]If you honestly believe that kids now a days are that much worse than 50 years ago, you're honestly quite naive..[/QUOTE]

Fine, would I be naïve to say that they're still delinquent little sh[size=2]its[/size] and they need to get a real hobby and find something that they're good at other than kicking a soccer ball and drinking to the edge of death?

It doesn't matter whether kids are worse now compared to before, the point is that they're bad any way you roll it and some improvement would be appreciated by the mature people left in this country.

who the hell plays soccer?

[QUOTE=The Tway]who the hell plays soccer?[/QUOTE]

The jocks at my old high school.

I don't think kids who are actually in high school are really that much of a problem in the grand scheme of things.

and what makes you think that regular parental beatings would change the way 'jocks' are?

...

[QUOTE=The Tway]and what makes you think that regular parental beatings would change the way 'jocks' are?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Cain]As other large-scale social issues, a blanket policy of pain infliction for percieved "disrespect" will not solve the problem of disrespectful attitudes but will only force them to simmer under the surface, which could lead to much more dangerous territory.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=The Tway]who the hell plays soccer?[/QUOTE]

The entire world bar America. Bloody yanks.

"spare the rod and spoil the child"
I think spankings and what not are needed...in moderation. I'm not saying leave bruises or cuts or make the kid bleed but i'm all for a spanking or two when a kid does something wrong. Now to do that at school...i think the principle (or whoever does the spanking) should call the parents and have permission first but i'm all for it.

Oh Tway I forgot to ask. Why do you hate the freedom of a parent to spank their kids, if you don't hate the freedom to murder babies?

Kids dont really have the freedom to fight back quite as much. Plus its not killing babies, its killing fetuses

[QUOTE]"spare the rod and spoil the child"
I think spankings and what not are needed...in moderation. I'm not saying leave bruises or cuts or make the kid bleed but i'm all for a spanking or two when a kid does something wrong. Now to do that at school...i think the principle (or whoever does the spanking) should call the parents and have permission first but i'm all for it.[/QUOTE]uh, I wouldn't quote the OT as moral justification for anything.