oh yeah and do you still use AIM?

I still use AIM, although not that frequently. My screenname is still FreeMusicNo1, and I am still willing to help people out with questions.

The degree refers to a tone in a scale. For instance, the third degree of C major would be E. And yes, the major scale, melodic scale, and harmonic scale all have different modes. The harmonic scale and its modes aren't that common, but the melodic minor modes are. In the beginning of the thread I listed the modes of the melodic minor scales in terms of degrees, so you should be able to figure out patterns from those in all different keys.

replying to first page:

Whats this berklee thing you all are talking about?

The summer camp?

EDIT: I guess I might as well bring this up now. this thread seems appropriate.

I'm in the jazz band at my school. I'm having some trouble though. I usually just play 7th chords even if the chord chart mentions alterations like 13s and stuff. I think I wind up playign a lot of wrong chords this way.

The Jazz band teacher told me to just play the "shells", which i guess is just the 3 and 7? What abotu when the chord is just major or minor and not a 7th chord? What abotu when its a 6th chord? How do you all go about playign shells? I think I know how to do it, but it seems like it would take forever to learn how to do it for even one song.

The Jazz teacher also complains that I play too low on the neck. I guess this is cause I use root 6 and root 5 chord voicings maybe?

Basically, do you have any tips for playing guitar in jazz band?

ok now for the whole chord progression thing. if i want ot make complicated chords in a progression how do i do that, still use hte scales and modes? and if and when i get a progression how do i determine which chord ot use as the mood scale?
for example: A major, C#min, some weird chord, low to high(x4545x, and another low to high(x5767x) how do i find what chords to progress too, and what scaes to play on top of this progression, do i jsut pick any chord i want and then play the scalle to that, and last question. if it tuns out to be that weird 4545 chord what freakin scale would that be?
this is where i am getting stuck and frusterated
thanks to anyone who knows

The chord progression there is:

Amaj (577655)
C#min (x46654)
C#m7b5 (x4545x)
Dmaj7 (x5767x)

Play those chords, in order, four times, and after the final Dmaj7, play the Amaj chord one last time (to "resolve" the progression).

So the whole thing should look like:

Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj.

As for scales, this is a bit more complicated. There are two options:

1. Play an A Major Pentatonic scale the whole way through (A B C# E F#)

2. If you feel like something a little more advanced, use an A Major scale over the Amaj chord, and the C#min chord. Then switch to an A Mixolydian scale over the C#m7b5 chord. Then back to an A Major scale over the Dmaj7 chord (and the final Amaj chord).

This is what those scales look like, in the order that you should play them:

A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)
A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)
A Mixolydian (A B C# D E F# G A)
A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)

The only difference is that in the A Mixolydian scale, there's a G instead of a G# (this is because the C#m7b5 chord over which you're playing the A Mixolydian scale has a G, and not a G#).

If that scale changing business is too much to keep in mind though, just stick with the A Major Pentatonic scale.

I m still learning everything and anithing about music and all of you helped me a lot.

I m playing bass in a band so my practice is just fine but my theory is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000- therefor this site means a lot lot lot.........


[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=7]thanks[/SIZE][/COLOR]

thanks maverick, but heres teh real problem. now how can i find more chords to add? Can i just pick the F# and then make it a aug or a b7b5, how do i know when and how to make it a more colorful chord?

Well, if you want to find chords to add to the progression, just look at the key of the song. The progression is in the key of A major, which is A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#.

To build a chord that's going to fit into an A major progression, just pick one of the notes of the scale to use as your root note. For example, F#.

To help you get your head around the process of chord building, organise the notes of the A major key that I typed out above, except use F# as your starting point instead of A. That means, instead of having A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, you have F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E.

They're the same notes, just in a different order.

Now, think of those notes like this:

[b]1st - F#[/b]
2nd - G#
[b]3rd - A[/b]
4th - B
[b]5th - C#[/b]
6th - D
[b]7th - E[/b]

Now, just take the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th, and you have your basic jazz chord. In this case, the F# minor seventh chord (F#m7).

If you want more "colour", add one or two (or all) of the other notes. They're the 2nd, the 4th, and the 6th, but in jazz circles, they're called the 9th, the 11th, and the 13th. It's easy to understand why:

[b]1st - F#[/b]
2nd - G#
[b]3rd - A[/b]
4th - B
[b]5th - C#[/b]
6th - D
[b]7th - E[/b]
8th - F#
[b]9th - G#[/b]
10th - A
[b]11th - B[/b]
12th - C#
[b]13th - D[/b]
14th - E

That should give you some idea of how chords are built in jazz. Just find the key of the song (A major in this case), pick a root note (F# in this case), and then go through the steps of re-arranging them so you can see what notes make up the basic jazz chord (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th), and what notes you can use as your extensions (9th, 11th, 13th). :)



Finally, if you want, you can experiment with alterations. That is, taking one of the notes of the basic or extended jazz chord, and changing it up or down one semitone. A typical example would be to take the basic F#m7 chord (F#, A, C#, E), and altering the 5th by flattening it one semitone. This changes the chord to an F#m7b5 (F#, A, C, E). Also common is taking, say, an Amaj chord, and altering the 5th by sharpening it one semitone, changing an Amaj7 (A, C#, E, G#) to an A+maj7 (A, C#, E#, G#).

But those are fairly tricky chords to compose with, and because they use notes that aren't in the key of the piece, they're kind of tough to solo over.

what is a cadence

This is what I got from dictionary.com about "cadence"...

"[I]Cadence - A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution."[/I]

So I'm guessing that its [I]basically[/I] a resolved chord progression...

Now I had a question, this may not be the best place to ask it, but I find that in this particular forum there are much better odds of me getting a helpful and informative answer, no matter what the question is.

I was wondering if any Jazz guitar players here have any experience in learning guitar through the CAGED method, through books such as Fretboard Logic, and if it is a good approach to learning and really understanding how to play Jazz guitar. The CAGED method teaches you an understanding of guitar in a purely guitar way through learning basic patterns and then, once you understand them, changing them to more advanced things. My problem is that I have trouble trying to decide whether I want to try and learn guitar and theory that way, or just try and study all the theory I can and try to apply it to guitar myself. It seems that the latter option would take alot longer but if I wanted to play other instruments it may make that easier. But I just wanted to know if anyone has learned through the CAGED method and found it beneficial to their Jazz playing...

Sooo anyways, I've got another question...

When writing in Key signatures for a song, I know if the key is major you write the flats or sharps that exist in that keys major scale. But I was wondering about Minor keys. Songs can be written in an overall minor key right? So the key signature would then be all the sharps or flats that exist in that Minor scale? And the minor scale used is the Natural Minor (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7)? I just wanted to make sure with most of this.

I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?

For your first question yes

For the second question is no b/c all the other exotic ( altered ) scales are based off the major scale like for example that you gave the Harmonic minor which we know that two notes of the major scale are altered ( b3 , b6 ) giving us the harmonic minor scale
So the key sig. rule does not apply to other scales except the major scale

Here's some Bebop scales ( If you know your major scale use that as a reference )

Major 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7

Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dom 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7

Half dim 1 b2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 7 ( here's a tip think of it as a half dim scale with both fifth's )

Anyway enjoy


Another thing to add is when you're learning your scales chords arppegios etc
LISTEN to how the scale or chord sounds while your playing it instead of memorizing fretboard shapes although it helps in a technique pointview and to get your finger - fretboard relationship hearing the sound of it is more important
The idea of doing this is try to connect your ear to your fingers so you don't have to think while you are playing so you just know the sound instead of mathematically working it out in your head or by the shape that you learnt

BTW - Great thread

cadences
 

[QUOTE=Charlemagne]This is what I got from dictionary.com about "cadence"...

"[I]Cadence - A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution."[/I]

So I'm guessing that its [I]basically[/I] a resolved chord progression...[/QUOTE]
There are many types of cadences. In general there are two types of cadences: Harmonic and rythmic. Some common harmonic cadences are authentic cadences (great for finishes of a song or part of a song) the chords use in this progression are V to a I. It will have a completeness effect. There are deceptive cadences which push the progression forward V to any other chord that isn't a I chord. Then there are half cadences which is a progression with any chord to a V chord. This feels half complete which of course can be seen in the name. There are more but im in class and i gotta go. Oh yea on more thing you have to mix the progression with rythm to get the full affect.

Sorry I haven't been around to post in here, I've been busy lately. Thanks to Mav and the others that have helped out; reps all around (except Mav, but I don't think you need it :thumb:[i][/i]).


Hopefully I'll be back around here soon, although for now there don't seem to be many unanswered questions.

[QUOTE=Charlemagne]
I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?[/QUOTE]

If you wanna use a harmonic minor key, you just put in the natural minor key and write the sharpened seventh as an accidental. It's the same with other exotic scales

the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here

Howdy, all! I have two questions. 1) How would a Jazz composer approach harmonizing a progression in a "Jazz style?" For example, I've heard a lot of popular xmas tunes redone to sound really cool (well, as cool as an xmas tune can be) by using chords with a lot of altered tones and such as well as by altering the progression to incorporate some jazz cliches and so forth (Suggestions for texts on this subject are also appreciated.) 2) I would like to build a small library of cool chord progressions / turnarounds / modulation aids (by which I mean a small progression which makes a modulation sound more natural) and so on to use as a basis for composing songs to practice improvising over. I would appreciate any examples, suggestions , or links to places where I can find more examples of this. OK, thanks for the info everyone!!

In it's broadest sense "Reharmonizing" a progression is taking a melody and reorganizing its harmonic structure ( chord progression) there are a number of ways

a)- You could use substitutions -chords that fill the same function as another chord because they share the same notes or shared tones
ie: Tri-tone substitution ( I'm sure someone explained this earlier on this thread )

b)- You can extend the harmonic underpinning by implying modulations (basically just setting up some dominant chords ahead of your target tonality) take the example of the Trane changes

D- ( D- Eb7 ) half step

G7 ( Ab B7 ) min 3rd

C ( E G7 ) min 3rd

C

This is done for a ordinary II-V-I chord progression encompassing four bars as explained above

c)- You can abandon any relation to the current function and treat the section as creativity as your imagination and ear will allow ie:Minor becomes major and vice versa , everything becomes a dominant , extended passages of one tonality becomes sections where every melody note is harmonized

* It's Okay explaining this in words but you have to have a good foundation in hearing this stuff I mean not only listening to artist but scribe there progressions and compare to other artist that play the same tune . Herbie is a great example on the Album " Kind of Blue " as well as getting information from text books ( The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine explains a little on the subject)as well as doing exercises yourself
ie: Here's a harmonization of a C major scale ( using chords )


Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

Here's another

Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim Cmaj Dmin

I mean try and figure out a melody line and add chords to it by doing this alot will help esp. in composing

As for your second question there are so many progressions which will take an age to write so I'll give you some common ones and hopefully others would show you more

II-V-I
I-iv-II-V-I
I-IV-V-I
I-iv-IV-V

Like I said earlier it's okay knowing the theory behind it all but you have to hear it to fully understand the logic involved once that's achieved then you can look forward to some fine musicianship

Anyway I hope that helps although others here will glady help ya out

[QUOTE=xhaereticusx]the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here[/QUOTE]


I took a week long camp, and studied with David Fiuczynski among other pople I don't remember right now. How do you like the school?

Jace, thanks for replying.

In response, to your points:

a) I am already familiar with what I would consider to be the more common chord-sub techniques (e.g. using chords a 3rd away, using chords that are a subset of another chord such as C (CEG) is a subset of Ami7 (ACEG), and tri-tone subs.) Are there any other less-commonly used techniques or is there a text somewhere that covers this?

b) I really didn't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate?

c) that's sort of a catch all rule for you don't have to follow the rules, right? :) what exactly do you mean by everything becomes a dominant? Do you mean harmonizing each chord as a dominant seventh based on whatever root note the melody suggests?

I'll check out the herbie album you mention as well as the text you suggested. thanks! I'll work as you suggest also on harmonizing scales using different substitution techniques to get the sound down (good tip!)

Regarding the chord progs, obviously ii V I , I IV V, are very prominent in much of jazz and popular music - what I was really looking for is some of the other stuff that you listed (I found I-iv-IV-V , and I-iv-II-V to be particularly interesting) - if you could (time permitting) list more examples such as this or even more specific altered chords even, I would appreciate it. Once again , thanks for the help!!

Opps! I assumed you knew the coltrane changes It's a formular made by the man himself go here for the info ( [url]http://www.lucaspickford.com/tranechanges.jpg[/url] )
If you can get access to the Countdown recording then you would see how it works
And yes there are no rules it depends on your ear I mean look at how Thelonious Monk conveyed his sound
What do you mean by altered chords I'm not sure what you mean here?

By altered chords I meant rather than just representing the basic chord type (major, minor, dominant, etc.) with roman numerals, giving a detailed description of the chord including all added tones.

For example, in the key of A minor, let's say I want to represent the common turnaround: F13 E7(b13) E7 I could represent it in a bare bones method as VI V7, but that really doesn't show the added (altered) tones which give this turnaround its flavor. So to do so, I would represent it as VI(13) V7(b13) V7 or just use the actual chords as listed above. I may be misusing terminology when I refer to this as showing the 'altered chords' , but I don't know what would be the proper terminology to use here. Anyway, I'll check out the tranechanges link and see if I can figure out what you were talking about. Thanks for the help!

Ahh I see sorry dude Okay again there are no rules it depends on what sound that youré looking for . Once you get the sounds of all types of chords altered or it's basic type in your ears then you can see things in another world or perspective

I mean there are cats coming up in this music that treat the lead sheet as their only reference and play what that chord change is every chorus and every time they play that tune so an example of my experience is whenever I see a diminshed chord I sub. a dominant chord b9#9b13 cause at that time that's what I'm hearing or another is off the tune "Nardis" there's a guy I play with that likes to play Amaj7 on the first chord of the bridge but what I'm hearing that harmony is a minor so that's what I'll play
But remember if the others are'nt hearing what youré hearing then it's a good idea to keep it in perspective otherwise you're gonna end up with clashes
It's really hard to explain in words you have to experience it I guess is the best I can come up with
But I do suggest getting your ears use to all this terminology so you can really understand all this jargon ( I call it ) then you will be doing things where nobody has gone before and if the musicians that youré with are on the same wave-length then who knows where you'll end up.
BTW- I don't do this all the time only when I hear other players that go off in their own tangent then I usually give it back to them when it's my turn and make them follow me( LOL ) kinda like a musical joke

Altered chords are chords which have their notes taken out of key. Egs

C7b5
C#11 etc

basically they're those with flattened or sharped 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and so ons. With chords like C9s and C13s and 6/9s (or in whatever key) are called extended chords, very much like a major 7th chord is.

The good thing about these chords is that you can just pretty much substituite them and they'll add lots of different flavours to your music depending on how you want them to sound. There're not much rules to which one you can use when and where, just use your ears

So to answer your question (hopefully) i'll just take a I-vi-ii-V progression in C and stir in some more colourful chords. try this: Cmaj9 - A7#5 - Dm9 - G7#5. voice leading wise it has a descending melody line.

Chord Building
 

Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?

I recomend you use the major and minor scales to build chords. If you truly want to play jazz you want to be comfortable with the most scales and modes as possible. Building chords using scales will familierize yourself with the fret board and the piano keys, but more so the fret board
[QUOTE=Ryckman]Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?[/QUOTE]

i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.[/QUOTE]

Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...