[QUOTE=radioheader]are there modes for scales that are not major? Does a scale such as the melodic minor have modes for it?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

If you are using a natural minor scale, the modes are the same. Except make sure you allow for the fact that a natural minor scale is the Aeolian mode of a Major scale (mode starting on 6th degree), and therefore, when applying modes to the Natural Minor Scale, the first mode is called Aeolian (wheras in the Major scale it is the Ionian). So simply, the modes are the same, but the names are displaced due to the reasons mentioned above.

If you are using a harmonic minor scale, the mode system works the same as the way you first learnt it (ie D Dorian is a C major scale pattern starting on the D and ending on the octave of D), excpet for the Harmonic Minor Modes do not have names as such, and are referred to in this context as Mode 1 through to Mode 7.

When using a Melodic Minor Scale, the rules are as above, except that you must allow for the alterered scale degrees in the melodic minor scale. Here are names of all the minor modes, in order.

-NATURAL MINOR-

Aeolien (Natural Minor)
Locrian
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian

-HARMONIC MINOR-

Mode 1
Mode 2
Mode 3
Mode 4
Mode 5
Mode 6
Mode 7

-MELODIC MINOR-

Melodic Minor
Dorian b2
Lydian Augmented
Lydian Dominant
Mixolydian b6
Locrian #2
Altered (or Super Locrian)

Hope this is of help to everyone wondering about minor modes; they don't get talked about much.

[QUOTE=fingerstyle]
-HARMONIC MINOR-

Mode 1
Mode 2
Mode 3
Mode 4
Mode 5
Mode 6
Mode 7
[/QUOTE]
Harmonic Minor
locrian natural 6
ionian augmented
dorian #4
phrygian dominant
lydian #2
super locrian bb7

in the locrian #2 is really locrian natural 9 or aoliean b5

^thanks quatre

*shakes fist at old music theory textbook for lying to me about harmonic minor mdoes*

mine didnt even mention them...soo feel good

Don't worry. I do!


I just posted a lesson about Intervals.

Entitled 'Intervals for Bass Players', Ben Wilkie approaches the subject with his characteristic wit and good humour. For beginners and advanced students alike, Intervals for Bass Players is a valuable resource. Featuring over 2 examples, 'Intervals for Bass Players' makes learning intervals fun!

I also posted a lesson about minor modes.

Entitled 'The Minor Modes', Ben Wilkie approaches the subject with his characteristic wit and good humour. For beginners and advanced students alike, 'The Minor Modes' is a valuable resource. Featuring over 2 examples, 'The Minor Modes' makes minor modes fun!

I actually don't know the minor modes... But I hardly know how to apply the major modes so it's not that big of a deal for me, just yet. There's a lot more important things to learn than modes, IMO. It seems to be all the craze here on MX though.

well then explain to us what you feel is more important than modes?

from a thoretical stand point modes are important, and dually even more important to help learn the neck.

[QUOTE=Left Shoe]well then explain to us what you feel is more important than modes?

from a thoretical stand point modes are important, and dually even more important to help learn the neck.[/QUOTE]

Studying theory at my school modes aren't mentioned until at least the 3rd semester. I'm going to guess the stuff they do before that are more important and lead up to modes.

I think people should learn what the bass is capable of doing. Bass, to me, is one of the coolest instruments because it decides what a chord ultimately is.

For instance, say a guitarist plays a C chord. Now if you play a C, you have a root position I chord (in the key of C, of course). If you play an E, you have a first inversion I chord. This is a totally different sound.

Say the guitarist plays a Dm chord. You could play D and have a root position ii chord or you could play a C and have a third-inversion seventh chord built on ii. Good stuff.

This is just my opinion though... It's good to know the modes, but I don't think it's the most important thing to learn and I feel that too many people jump into modes without understand a lot of the other stuff that they should learn first. You know what they say about opinions though...

- Darrell

I remember reading in a history book that modes were made up by ancient greek musicians for their music (hence the funny names.) Modern western music, however, has basically replaced modes with chords and harmonies, etc. well each node has its own sound, every chord has its own sound too, and using them allows for different ways of combining sounds.

That being said, it sure is easy to just memorize a mode fingering and play a melody or counter-melody on it. and pretty fun. but I would think that for a musician who wants to be able to play more varied stuff easily, learning modes might not be as important.

just my 2 cents

Yes modes are very important.

But, basic things like intervals, rhythmic studies, scales, triads, seventh chords, inversions, four part harmony and a simple understanding of chord function in progressions should be understood thoroughly before modes can be used to their full potential.

It sounds like darrel is taking a course that would introduce him to modes at the right time, when they won't be confusing, and when they can be utilised fully.

[QUOTE=fingerstyle]

It sounds like darrel[B]l[/B] is taking a course that would introduce him to modes at the right time, when they won't be confusing, and when they can be utilised fully.[/QUOTE]

Yep... They actually haven't mentioned modes yet. I took lessons where I learned them all. I wish I had learned something else... oh well.

i think in reference to learning the bass modes are a very important thing and shoud be at least learned early on, i mean physically learn them, not learn their theoretical applications. because it teaches you a scale over the entire neck

[QUOTE=chameleon13]I remember reading in a history book that modes were made up by ancient greek musicians for their music (hence the funny names.) Modern western music, however, has basically replaced modes with chords and harmonies, etc. well each node has its own sound, every chord has its own sound too, and using them allows for different ways of combining sounds.

That being said, it sure is easy to just memorize a mode fingering and play a melody or counter-melody on it. and pretty fun. but I would think that for a musician who wants to be able to play more varied stuff easily, learning modes might not be as important.

just my 2 cents[/QUOTE]
i always thought they were named after egyptian tribes or something of the sort.

[QUOTE=Left Shoe]i think in reference to learning the bass modes are a very important thing and shoud be at least learned early on, i mean physically learn them, not learn their theoretical applications. because it teaches you a scale over the entire neck[/QUOTE]

that makes sense. my teacher had me do major and minor scales (which are actually modes) plus some random arpeggios he wrote down.

@moghes I think they were mostly named after the greek islands or city-states or whatever

they mustve hated the locreans

all of the modes are named after cities

Man I'd love to live in Super Locrian

^^^Best city state ever. The must've worshipped the gods of the altered dominant or something.

Would anyone know any Theory books? Everything I've learned has been offline and i can't find anything new...

Thanks

"Master Theory " books 1-6 by Paul Yoder, its what my school uses to teach theory

[QUOTE=Left Shoe]"Master Theory " books 1-6 by Paul Yoder, its what my school uses to teach theory[/QUOTE]
Thanks:)

its not exactly the end all of theory books, but its what i learned from

How advanced do these books go?

well 6 books 30 lessons in each one. and i learned everything i knwo from it... i cant really tell you whats all in it except that i dont have a problem with theory or answering theory questions on here

I might have to order these books. I really do want to learn theory.

theory books tend to be heavily based on classical music, but pretty much all of the stuff you learn can be applied universally

Berklee Press also has harmony books you can order

[QUOTE=moghes69]theory books tend to be heavily based on classical music, but pretty much all of the stuff you learn can be applied universally[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but let's face it, theory is a classical concept. Rockers are the naughty school boys who go against the classical grain. Jazzers are educated but rebellious prefects, who go against the grain but have enough theory knowledge to say what rules they're bending, and effectively create new rules.

Theory is easiest in classical music because it has rules that are very rarely broken. Once you know that, jazz theory is easier to learn.

Lumping all non-popular music theory into "Classical music theory" doesn't work for the comparison to jazz and other music theories. You have to look at theory from a chronological standpoint in order to make comparisons. Classical and Baroque music theory had rules that were broken all the time in Romantic and then Impressionistic music, like parallel octaves and fifths, dangling sevenths, 9th chords and extension chords, harmony as function rather than method. Before jazz even came about, Serialism was invented, and then all of old classical music theory went out the window for a new set of "classical" music theory rules.

Jazz was just an evolution of classical music harmony that almagamated African-American rhythms and melodic phrasing - it wasn't a rebellion against it. If anything, it was making it simpler. If you look at jazz theory vis-a-vis the classical music of the time, or even 19th century classical, it's actually an extremely simplistic approach to harmony and composition, its just that us jazzers use different jargon. Free jazz ala Ornette Coleman and late John Coltrane is thought to be the most dissonant and free music around, but composers like John Cage were doing even more bizzare and aleotoric compositions beforehand.

[QUOTE=HaVIC5]John Cage[/QUOTE]

I know this doesnt really relate all that much to music theory, but John Cage gave a seminar at my dad's college in the 70s and it was raining, so he went up to a window and wrote a music staff on it. He then proceeded to play the notes on a piano, which in turn was playing the raindrops. Crazy things can spur great ideas.

My mom actually once performed with John Cage when I was a baby. She played my "busy box", one of those tactile panels that makes various noises when you press buttons to entertain infants.

You're also missing the fact that Johnny Cage helped save the world from the Scorpion and Shao Tsung in Mortal Kombat.

but he punched the 4 armed one in the balls, which isnt cool so we dont talk about that

[QUOTE=Left Shoe]but he punched the 4 armed one in the balls, which isnt cool so we dont talk about that[/QUOTE]
goro

in annihilation he gets killed within the first five minutes of the movie so he can't be that great

[QUOTE]but he punched the 4 armed one in the balls, which isnt cool so we dont talk about that[/QUOTE]
Goro :mad:

[QUOTE]Man I'd love to live in Super Locrian[/QUOTE]
You silly billy. The town is called "super" - the addition of the word locrian just makes it an altered form of the "super" mode.

[QUOTE]Why would you want to do that? That would make it more confusing.

Every scale must have a letter name for each tone in the scale. Now if you were playing a C major scale, for instance, you would have... C D Fb F G A B C... Not cool. [/QUOTE]
Exactly.

What would you do with a key signature that implied that every F you see is natural and flat? That would be confusing!

[QUOTE]I always thought its when you add more thirds to a 7th chord (making 9th, #11th, and 13th)[/QUOTE]
No, they're "[i]ex[/i]tensions". Tensions are what Darrell said.

[QUOTE]what is syncopation?[/QUOTE]
Syncopation, as simple as it sounds, is accenting an unaccented beat.

[QUOTE]In a scale, there are four perfect intervals, the unison, the fourth, the fifth and the octave. There are then four intervals that are qualified by being major or minor - the second, the third, the sixth and the seventh. Perfect intervals cannot be specified major or minor because in traditional, simple classical theory, they are found in both the major and minor keys.[/QUOTE]
I hate to be a bastard, but if being prevalent in both major and minor keys makes an interval "perfect" why aren't they called "perfect seconds" instead of "major/minor seconds"?. I was taught two different reasons...

1) They're called perfect because they remain perfect when inverted (that's from my music teacher).
2) They're called perfect because of their euphonious sound (that's from wikipedia).

Theory ROcks!

Are you sure or is that just a personal theory you have made?:)

forgot about that inversion part in the perfect intervals, good call diatonic.

Hey, I'm looking for some advice about where to go next as far as my bass playing goes. I've been playing for about two years now, but I feel like I'm just kind of stagnating, skill-wise. I need some advice on what theory to learn from here, any particular songs I should listen to and practice to get a hold of a certain technique, whatever.

Technically, I think I play very well. I can play pretty much any speed (finger style or slapping) or style, but my problem is more with bass theory than anything. I can play another person's slap line well, but I can't write my own. So I guess I'm looking for advice on writing lines and general concepts for when you're jamming with other people. I've had a lot of musical theory in the past, but nothing specifically for bass guitar. One of my problems is that I stick to major and minor scales too much in writing lines, so they all sound fairly boring.

Sorry for the sort of roundabout way of asking a fairly simple question, but basically what I need help with is transitioning from the garage-band stage to the beginning of being a serious bassist. Is there any reading material that would be useful, any advice from a seasoned bassist, any ideas on what I should be looking at next?

More specifically...

Is there any literature anyone can point me to that'll introduce me to jazz techniques, styles, theory, ect?

I understand the concept of modes (I've read a lot of this thread), but I'm a little confused with their uses. It seems to me that you can stay in one key while playing the root of another (as in playing the D-Dorian mode in the key of C), which would make for more interesting solos, but how would this work with part writing? It seems like it'd conflict with, say, a guitarist who's transition from a C-minor chord to a D-major chord. I'm sorry if that doesn't make much sense, I'm still trying to work this all out in my head.

Does anyone have any advice on where/how I should learn advanced scale work? Any websites or books that you've found useful?

It seems to me that rhythm is as (or more) important as what notes you pick. I've heard some great jazz lines using only the blues scale with a nice rhythm. So, does anyone have any useful tips for writing rhythmic lines or how to combine part (note-wise) writing with rhythm?

Sorry for the long post, and for the general questions. If anyone has any advice or help they could impart on me, I'd be very grateful. Thanks a lot.