I think Mitchell was the perfect counterpart to Hendrix. Also, as far as rhythm goes, Hendrix was one of the best.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Well, Vai is a very bad example if you're going to demonstrate abscence of soul. Watch a live video of For The Love Of God.

However, Vai and Page can't be compared, and Page got his own 'spark'.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget Blue Powder.

[QUOTE=Fatback]I'd rather listen to somebody play with emotion than a soul-less "guitartron" like Vai or Satriani any day.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding???? I take it you've never heard Satriani. The reason Satriani is so revered is *because* he's a great songwriter!!! Yes, he is quite technical, but his songwriting is very good and most definitely not soul-less. You can get a non-guitar/music person to listen to a Satriani album, and they'll actually like it - and that's quite an achievement with a solo guitarist album.
As for Vai, I haven't heard that much from him; but from the songs that I have heard, he is anything *but* soul less.
I really think you're trying to make a point that you prefer songwriting over technicality (fair enough), but you're using examples of technical virtuosos whom you probably haven't listened to. I could understand if you thought Malmsteen had no emotion, but Satriani and Vai...

I've heard Satriani once. He'd played an instrumental tune he wrote himself. The tune was trite, simplistic, and compositionally incompetent. As for the playing: "guitartron" is as good a single-word description as any. I never heard Vai do anything but play fast.

The best rock guitarists were Hendrix, Clapton, and Santana. No one ever played rock guitar with more soul than Carlos Santana.

There are several reasons I would never call Page's playing soulful. One is that Plant, Page, and Bonham were most of the time over-the-top, and over-the-top is insincere, not soulful. Another is that Page's tone-quality was bad (as I've pointed out five thousand times already). I can't see how you can play soulfully without ever listening to the sound you make.

Be that as it may, Page has no connection to jazz and [i]DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS FORUM[/I], so let's shut up about him already.

OK - as this thread has developed into one which drifts around several topics...

Has Santana participated in any jazz oriented projects? If so, I'm very interested in listening. I agree that this man knows what soul is about. I also think his use of the Dorian mode is interesting. I'm still quite new to the Dorian mode, so he's one I should study.

It strikes me that almost every Santana song I listen to seems to be based on the Dorian mode. Is this a result of me listening to the 'stereotype' songs only, or does he actually use mainly the Dorian mode? How about the Phrygian mode or natural minor? Which of these scales appear most often in his songs; I take it for granted that both have appeared at least once, despite the fact that he obviously is an all-out Dorian fan, so to speak.

I once found a recording of Santana with Stevie Ray Vaughan, and also one with Phish. I like the man, but I still don't know that much about him, except for a few songs as well as a couple of TV appearances.

Any inputs?

[QUOTE=Ned]I've heard Satriani once. He'd played an instrumental tune he wrote himself. The tune was trite, simplistic, and compositionally incompetent. As for the playing: "guitartron" is as good a single-word description as any. I never heard Vai do anything but play fast.

The best rock guitarists were Hendrix, Clapton, and Santana. No one ever played rock guitar with more soul than Carlos Santana.

There are several reasons I would never call Page's playing soulful. One is that Plant, Page, and Bonham were most of the time over-the-top, and over-the-top is insincere, not soulful. Another is that Page's tone-quality was bad (as I've pointed out five thousand times already). I can't see how you can play soulfully without ever listening to the sound you make.

Be that as it may, Page has no connection to jazz and [i]DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS FORUM[/I], so let's shut up about him already.[/QUOTE]

i would agree with you about page, but vai actually does play with a lot of soul. for example, the song ""for the love of god" is quite emotional, while still being technical.

i'm going to add jeff beck to your list of best rock guitarists because he eclipses the talent and rivals the soul of the three you listed. i'm not going to say that he has the same songwriting talent because i know he doesn't. but i would definitely still list him among the best.

popupbox, santana did an album with john mclaughlin, the guitarist for the mahavishnu orchestra. its something of a tribute to john coltrane. quite soulful and fusion-y.

Ned: i suggest you listen to some more Vai. he has really unique phrasing and his usage of the guitars whammy bar is really impressive, its like his guitar is talking. shame he isnt a good composer.

IMO joe satriani sucks and is a "guitartron"

Hendrix is better then Page hands down.

I like musicians that changes his songs every different concert. Like Red House, I heard maybe 5 different versions to this day. Jimmy Page, he's a good writter. I like he's songs, but if he could play them better live, would make him a better guitarist. Stairway To Heaven, everytime I heard his solo live, you can really see he's missing something...he's trying to do too much..Only Hendrix can solo more than 5 mins. without getting bored and repeating himself.

Hendrix is the king of guitar, and he'll always gonna be the king of guitar.

guys...were getting bogged down with the Hendrix vs Page argument.

Isn't it really all about Johnny Guitar Watson :D

Santana and MacLaughlin together - I got to find out more about this.

A note about Satriani and Vai: I like both, and have listened to quite an amount of songs by each of them. They're definately among my favourites.

However, I can not see how someone can say Satriani is a "guitartron" but not Vai (or the other way around)? Maybe I have not listened to enough songs, but to they really differ that greatly? I mean; enough difference for saying one is a guitartron/soulles player/nothing-but-a-technique-wizard while the other is not? My impression after a few years of listening is that they sound quite similar if you got a certain perspective on it.

My opinion is merely that:
MY opinion. I still say that guys like Vai and Satriani don't play with REAL soul. They play the hell out of what they have heard other guys with soul play but over-embellish it. And it's not a thing that only affects white dudes. Wynton Marsalis is the same way.
I'm an old white brother and have more soul in me than Wynton.
Vai and Sat?
PUHLEASE!

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]

popupbox, santana did an album with john mclaughlin, the guitarist for the mahavishnu orchestra. its something of a tribute to john coltrane. quite soulful and fusion-y.[/QUOTE]
Great cover on that old album....with John appearing to want to be Santana's "sensei".
Good stuff, though.

[QUOTE=Fatback]My opinion is merely that:
MY opinion. I still say that guys like Vai and Satriani don't play with REAL soul. They play the hell out of what they have heard other guys with soul play but over-embellish it. And it's not a thing that only affects white dudes. Wynton Marsalis is the same way.
I'm an old white brother and have more soul in me than Wynton.
Vai and Sat?
PUHLEASE![/QUOTE]

And which specific examples would you point out in order to illustrate the differences? When I say examples I mean techniques/qualities which claim lack of soul - or maybe songs in which 'absence of soul' dominates?

Is there a coherence between good technique and lack of soul? I'm just asking. If so, where is the line drawn? Eddie Van Halen? He's got a fairly good technique - maybe not as good as Malmsteen -, how about his soul?

[QUOTE].Only Hendrix can solo more than 5 mins. without getting bored and repeating himself.
[/QUOTE]Wowz. You need to listen to listen to some more guitarists.

[QUOTE=starless and bible black]Wowz. You need to listen to listen to some more guitarists.[/QUOTE]

bah. I've heard alot of guitarist..don't you worry. I just have a lot of respect for Hendrix.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Santana and MacLaughlin together - I got to find out more about this.

A note about Satriani and Vai: I like both, and have listened to quite an amount of songs by each of them. They're definately among my favourites.

However, I can not see how someone can say Satriani is a "guitartron" but not Vai (or the other way around)? Maybe I have not listened to enough songs, but to they really differ that greatly? I mean; enough difference for saying one is a guitartron/soulles player/nothing-but-a-technique-wizard while the other is not? My impression after a few years of listening is that they sound quite similar if you got a certain perspective on it.[/QUOTE]
they are quite different. vai is superior in technique and he puts more feel into. it seems like he has more of a feel for the music and where it goes. he's also more experimental.

popupbox, there's a lot of good covers on that album. and i agree, mclaughlin brings out the best in santana. his technique appears to be leaps and bounds above what he usually puts out.

[QUOTE=Passion,Grace and Fire]Technically perfect and Malmsteen do not belong in the same sentence.[/QUOTE]
What, about, as in,[I] not.[/I]

[QUOTE=Ned]I've heard Satriani once. He'd played an instrumental tune he wrote himself. The tune was trite, simplistic, and compositionally incompetent. As for the playing: "guitartron" is as good a single-word description as any. I never heard Vai do anything but play fast.

The best rock guitarists were Hendrix, Clapton, and Santana. No one ever played rock guitar with more soul than Carlos Santana.

There are several reasons I would never call Page's playing soulful. One is that Plant, Page, and Bonham were most of the time over-the-top, and over-the-top is insincere, not soulful. Another is that Page's tone-quality was bad (as I've pointed out five thousand times already). I can't see how you can play soulfully without ever listening to the sound you make.

Be that as it may, Page has no connection to jazz and [i]DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS FORUM[/I], so let's shut up about him already.[/QUOTE]
You should probably hear more Satriani first. Maybe the Surfing With The Alien or Strange Beautiful Music albums. But not just 1 or 2 songs; whole albums.
He makes good use of his bassist too :). He hates technical practice unless it actually sounds good.
I can see how Vai might seem like that. You see, I didn't really like Tender Surrender that much till I actually saw the video of Vai playing it and how much emotion he pours into it. I guess I kind of connected to his level of emotion, and listened to it from his perspective, because Tender Surrender seems full of emotion to me nowadays. So it's good to watch the video.
I like Santana a lot, but I think his playing can get repetitive, even if it does fuse a lot of genres. I know crap all music theory (I kinda have my own music theory), but it seems as if Santana plays around the same scale too often (for want of better jargon).

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]And which specific examples would you point out in order to illustrate the differences? When I say examples I mean techniques/qualities which claim lack of soul - or maybe songs in which 'absence of soul' dominates?

Is there a coherence between good technique and lack of soul? I'm just asking. If so, where is the line drawn? Eddie Van Halen? He's got a fairly good technique - maybe not as good as Malmsteen -, how about his soul?[/QUOTE]

Let me start by saying that I know you are asking an honest question and not trying to be a smart-***..... and I'm not attempting to be "cosmic' or dodge the question with this reply.
IMO, music is a way to share ideas and emotions that can't always be explained with words.
Just as with the thread about "what makes something funky", this question of soul may be one you can't answer. It is in fact, one of those times where, If you have to ask you may never know.
I am not trying to be smug.
I am a musician. I don't display my 'funkiness' by walking like a pimp. I display it by laying down a groove that makes the little girls unable to stop their asses from shaking. Hard to articulate...impossible to resist.

(I think that Eddie tries and succeeds often to get across some REAL emotion. I can feel a dark side to him...a side that is sometimes angry and sometimes frustrated. What I usually get from guys like Vai and Satriani is the message, "Look at me! I'm just BITCHIN'!!)

Hey, I "legally ambiguosly" obtained a song called

Blues Jam #2 part 2, which is supposedly by Hendrix and BB King. Is this for real?

It sounds like him, and I know he was going to go into blues and stuff towards the end, but did he really ever jam with BB?

Just wondering whether this is the real deal or not...

I never heard about such a summit.
I have been to B.B.'s home in Vegas and somebody mentioned Jimi.
Mr. King never mentioned jamming with him. It seems as if he would've.

[QUOTE=Fatback]Let me start by saying that I know you are asking an honest question and not trying to be a smart-***..... and I'm not attempting to be "cosmic' or dodge the question with this reply.
IMO, music is a way to share ideas and emotions that can't always be explained with words.
Just as with the thread about "what makes something funky", this question of soul may be one you can't answer. It is in fact, one of those times where, If you have to ask you may never know.
I am not trying to be smug.
I am a musician. I don't display my 'funkiness' by walking like a pimp. I display it by laying down a groove that makes the little girls unable to stop their asses from shaking. Hard to articulate...impossible to resist.

(I think that Eddie tries and succeeds often to get across some REAL emotion. I can feel a dark side to him...a side that is sometimes angry and sometimes frustrated. What I usually get from guys like Vai and Satriani is the message, "Look at me! I'm just BITCHIN'!!)[/QUOTE]

I see (I couldn't prevent laughing when reading your sentence about displaying funkiness by walking like a pimp).

Compared to many guitarists they might seem like 'nothing-else-but-technical-wizard-guitarists', however they do have many songs in which I definately find several references to 'emotion'.

I've seen a concert of Van Halen on television, as well as listened to many songs, and I got to say that if you think Satriani or Vai play just for showing off sometimes; would it be unreasonable saying the same is valid for Van Halen?
I'm not saying any of these guitarists lack soul by the way, I'm trying to see it from another perspective.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]

I've seen a concert of Van Halen on television, as well as listened to many songs, and I got to say that if you think Satriani or Vai play just for showing off sometimes; would it be unreasonable saying the same is valid for Van Halen?
[/QUOTE]
Not sure that this has much to do with "soul" or the lack of it but here's my take:
ANY of us that play for a living have, on occasion, OVER-played to impress that hot chick in row three or the one making sure we notice her on the dance-floor.
Eddie certainly does his share of shredding. The solo he did for "Beat It" is almost cartoonish.
I think it is the rare exceptional musician that plays EXACTLY what the music calls for and no more. The guy that can seperate his ego entirely and just try to add the precise emotion to the piece is a true "artist". (What an over-used word THAT is!)

OK - so where do you place Mr. Van Halen compared to Satriani and Vai, for instance?

Satriani and Vai seem almost savant-like to me. Van Halen seems to have a little more feel for whatever that "thing" is that translates into commercial success.
All great players.
All really "cute".(although Eddie better cool it with the Jack Daniels)
All getting laid WAAAAAAY more than me.
I hate 'em all.:lol:

Eddie Van Halen is exceptional. My friend is REALLY into him and I've only heard a small amount of his work, but it is very good. He plays with a lot of emotion imo.

I got my bootleg Hendrix DVD's the other day =D

[QUOTE=Fatback]
All great players.
All really "cute".(although Eddie better cool it with the Jack Daniels)
All getting laid WAAAAAAY more than me.
I hate 'em all.:lol:[/QUOTE]

Well, that's an effective change of subject :)

Three lines, new topic; and a fourth line to conclude.

That's the way things are, I guess.

Anyway, I have a DVD of Van Halen. I might watch it over again soon.

[QUOTE=DuckinFutch]Hey, I "legally ambiguosly" obtained a song called

Blues Jam #2 part 2, which is supposedly by Hendrix and BB King. Is this for real?

It sounds like him, and I know he was going to go into blues and stuff towards the end, but did he really ever jam with BB?

Just wondering whether this is the real deal or not...[/QUOTE]

Hey, anyone else know if there's anyway this thing can be real?

And if it's not BB King, could it be with someone else? It sounds a lot like both of their styles, but I really couldn't be sure...

sorry about the double post...