Now I had a question, this may not be the best place to ask it, but I find that in this particular forum there are much better odds of me getting a helpful and informative answer, no matter what the question is.

I was wondering if any Jazz guitar players here have any experience in learning guitar through the CAGED method, through books such as Fretboard Logic, and if it is a good approach to learning and really understanding how to play Jazz guitar. The CAGED method teaches you an understanding of guitar in a purely guitar way through learning basic patterns and then, once you understand them, changing them to more advanced things. My problem is that I have trouble trying to decide whether I want to try and learn guitar and theory that way, or just try and study all the theory I can and try to apply it to guitar myself. It seems that the latter option would take alot longer but if I wanted to play other instruments it may make that easier. But I just wanted to know if anyone has learned through the CAGED method and found it beneficial to their Jazz playing...

Sooo anyways, I've got another question...

When writing in Key signatures for a song, I know if the key is major you write the flats or sharps that exist in that keys major scale. But I was wondering about Minor keys. Songs can be written in an overall minor key right? So the key signature would then be all the sharps or flats that exist in that Minor scale? And the minor scale used is the Natural Minor (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7)? I just wanted to make sure with most of this.

I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?

For your first question yes

For the second question is no b/c all the other exotic ( altered ) scales are based off the major scale like for example that you gave the Harmonic minor which we know that two notes of the major scale are altered ( b3 , b6 ) giving us the harmonic minor scale
So the key sig. rule does not apply to other scales except the major scale

Here's some Bebop scales ( If you know your major scale use that as a reference )

Major 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7

Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dom 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7

Half dim 1 b2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 7 ( here's a tip think of it as a half dim scale with both fifth's )

Anyway enjoy


Another thing to add is when you're learning your scales chords arppegios etc
LISTEN to how the scale or chord sounds while your playing it instead of memorizing fretboard shapes although it helps in a technique pointview and to get your finger - fretboard relationship hearing the sound of it is more important
The idea of doing this is try to connect your ear to your fingers so you don't have to think while you are playing so you just know the sound instead of mathematically working it out in your head or by the shape that you learnt

BTW - Great thread

cadences
 

[QUOTE=Charlemagne]This is what I got from dictionary.com about "cadence"...

"[I]Cadence - A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution."[/I]

So I'm guessing that its [I]basically[/I] a resolved chord progression...[/QUOTE]
There are many types of cadences. In general there are two types of cadences: Harmonic and rythmic. Some common harmonic cadences are authentic cadences (great for finishes of a song or part of a song) the chords use in this progression are V to a I. It will have a completeness effect. There are deceptive cadences which push the progression forward V to any other chord that isn't a I chord. Then there are half cadences which is a progression with any chord to a V chord. This feels half complete which of course can be seen in the name. There are more but im in class and i gotta go. Oh yea on more thing you have to mix the progression with rythm to get the full affect.

Sorry I haven't been around to post in here, I've been busy lately. Thanks to Mav and the others that have helped out; reps all around (except Mav, but I don't think you need it :thumb:[i][/i]).


Hopefully I'll be back around here soon, although for now there don't seem to be many unanswered questions.

[QUOTE=Charlemagne]
I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?[/QUOTE]

If you wanna use a harmonic minor key, you just put in the natural minor key and write the sharpened seventh as an accidental. It's the same with other exotic scales

the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here

Howdy, all! I have two questions. 1) How would a Jazz composer approach harmonizing a progression in a "Jazz style?" For example, I've heard a lot of popular xmas tunes redone to sound really cool (well, as cool as an xmas tune can be) by using chords with a lot of altered tones and such as well as by altering the progression to incorporate some jazz cliches and so forth (Suggestions for texts on this subject are also appreciated.) 2) I would like to build a small library of cool chord progressions / turnarounds / modulation aids (by which I mean a small progression which makes a modulation sound more natural) and so on to use as a basis for composing songs to practice improvising over. I would appreciate any examples, suggestions , or links to places where I can find more examples of this. OK, thanks for the info everyone!!

In it's broadest sense "Reharmonizing" a progression is taking a melody and reorganizing its harmonic structure ( chord progression) there are a number of ways

a)- You could use substitutions -chords that fill the same function as another chord because they share the same notes or shared tones
ie: Tri-tone substitution ( I'm sure someone explained this earlier on this thread )

b)- You can extend the harmonic underpinning by implying modulations (basically just setting up some dominant chords ahead of your target tonality) take the example of the Trane changes

D- ( D- Eb7 ) half step

G7 ( Ab B7 ) min 3rd

C ( E G7 ) min 3rd

C

This is done for a ordinary II-V-I chord progression encompassing four bars as explained above

c)- You can abandon any relation to the current function and treat the section as creativity as your imagination and ear will allow ie:Minor becomes major and vice versa , everything becomes a dominant , extended passages of one tonality becomes sections where every melody note is harmonized

* It's Okay explaining this in words but you have to have a good foundation in hearing this stuff I mean not only listening to artist but scribe there progressions and compare to other artist that play the same tune . Herbie is a great example on the Album " Kind of Blue " as well as getting information from text books ( The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine explains a little on the subject)as well as doing exercises yourself
ie: Here's a harmonization of a C major scale ( using chords )


Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

Here's another

Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim Cmaj Dmin

I mean try and figure out a melody line and add chords to it by doing this alot will help esp. in composing

As for your second question there are so many progressions which will take an age to write so I'll give you some common ones and hopefully others would show you more

II-V-I
I-iv-II-V-I
I-IV-V-I
I-iv-IV-V

Like I said earlier it's okay knowing the theory behind it all but you have to hear it to fully understand the logic involved once that's achieved then you can look forward to some fine musicianship

Anyway I hope that helps although others here will glady help ya out

[QUOTE=xhaereticusx]the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here[/QUOTE]


I took a week long camp, and studied with David Fiuczynski among other pople I don't remember right now. How do you like the school?

Jace, thanks for replying.

In response, to your points:

a) I am already familiar with what I would consider to be the more common chord-sub techniques (e.g. using chords a 3rd away, using chords that are a subset of another chord such as C (CEG) is a subset of Ami7 (ACEG), and tri-tone subs.) Are there any other less-commonly used techniques or is there a text somewhere that covers this?

b) I really didn't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate?

c) that's sort of a catch all rule for you don't have to follow the rules, right? :) what exactly do you mean by everything becomes a dominant? Do you mean harmonizing each chord as a dominant seventh based on whatever root note the melody suggests?

I'll check out the herbie album you mention as well as the text you suggested. thanks! I'll work as you suggest also on harmonizing scales using different substitution techniques to get the sound down (good tip!)

Regarding the chord progs, obviously ii V I , I IV V, are very prominent in much of jazz and popular music - what I was really looking for is some of the other stuff that you listed (I found I-iv-IV-V , and I-iv-II-V to be particularly interesting) - if you could (time permitting) list more examples such as this or even more specific altered chords even, I would appreciate it. Once again , thanks for the help!!

Opps! I assumed you knew the coltrane changes It's a formular made by the man himself go here for the info ( [url]http://www.lucaspickford.com/tranechanges.jpg[/url] )
If you can get access to the Countdown recording then you would see how it works
And yes there are no rules it depends on your ear I mean look at how Thelonious Monk conveyed his sound
What do you mean by altered chords I'm not sure what you mean here?

By altered chords I meant rather than just representing the basic chord type (major, minor, dominant, etc.) with roman numerals, giving a detailed description of the chord including all added tones.

For example, in the key of A minor, let's say I want to represent the common turnaround: F13 E7(b13) E7 I could represent it in a bare bones method as VI V7, but that really doesn't show the added (altered) tones which give this turnaround its flavor. So to do so, I would represent it as VI(13) V7(b13) V7 or just use the actual chords as listed above. I may be misusing terminology when I refer to this as showing the 'altered chords' , but I don't know what would be the proper terminology to use here. Anyway, I'll check out the tranechanges link and see if I can figure out what you were talking about. Thanks for the help!

Ahh I see sorry dude Okay again there are no rules it depends on what sound that youré looking for . Once you get the sounds of all types of chords altered or it's basic type in your ears then you can see things in another world or perspective

I mean there are cats coming up in this music that treat the lead sheet as their only reference and play what that chord change is every chorus and every time they play that tune so an example of my experience is whenever I see a diminshed chord I sub. a dominant chord b9#9b13 cause at that time that's what I'm hearing or another is off the tune "Nardis" there's a guy I play with that likes to play Amaj7 on the first chord of the bridge but what I'm hearing that harmony is a minor so that's what I'll play
But remember if the others are'nt hearing what youré hearing then it's a good idea to keep it in perspective otherwise you're gonna end up with clashes
It's really hard to explain in words you have to experience it I guess is the best I can come up with
But I do suggest getting your ears use to all this terminology so you can really understand all this jargon ( I call it ) then you will be doing things where nobody has gone before and if the musicians that youré with are on the same wave-length then who knows where you'll end up.
BTW- I don't do this all the time only when I hear other players that go off in their own tangent then I usually give it back to them when it's my turn and make them follow me( LOL ) kinda like a musical joke

Altered chords are chords which have their notes taken out of key. Egs

C7b5
C#11 etc

basically they're those with flattened or sharped 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and so ons. With chords like C9s and C13s and 6/9s (or in whatever key) are called extended chords, very much like a major 7th chord is.

The good thing about these chords is that you can just pretty much substituite them and they'll add lots of different flavours to your music depending on how you want them to sound. There're not much rules to which one you can use when and where, just use your ears

So to answer your question (hopefully) i'll just take a I-vi-ii-V progression in C and stir in some more colourful chords. try this: Cmaj9 - A7#5 - Dm9 - G7#5. voice leading wise it has a descending melody line.

Chord Building
 

Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?

I recomend you use the major and minor scales to build chords. If you truly want to play jazz you want to be comfortable with the most scales and modes as possible. Building chords using scales will familierize yourself with the fret board and the piano keys, but more so the fret board
[QUOTE=Ryckman]Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?[/QUOTE]

i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.

[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.[/QUOTE]

Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...

[QUOTE=boog3ee]Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...[/QUOTE]


okay, thanks.

California Uber Alles is another good example of that rythym.

Using intervals in improvisation
 

I don't know how to work with intervals in my improvisation, could someone help me? I know intervals but I want to know which intervals play on different keys and on chord progressions.

Thanks

mike

[QUOTE=boog3ee]Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...[/QUOTE]
It might be written in 8/8, though, since that's really what it is. It's pulse is in eighth notes. I've seen it written before as 3+3+2/8.

That is the Pulse of the beat, thats why I said its "technically" 4/4 which is almost identical...

[QUOTE=boog3ee]That is the Pulse of the beat, thats why I said its "technically" 4/4 which is almost identical...[/QUOTE]
Remember time signatures aren't fractions. 6/8 feel bears no resemblance to 3/4. In fact, its more similar to 2/4.

[QUOTE=mikeeee]I don't know how to work with intervals in my improvisation, could someone help me? I know intervals but I want to know which intervals play on different keys and on chord progressions.

Thanks

mike[/QUOTE]
This is where working your ear as well as your knowledge of intervals comes in to play
I'm not sure what you mean by in different keys as the intervals go from unison to being it's octave unless you are going towards extending higher ie:( major 9th etc... )
Depending on the key in which you are in you can use any of the twelve intervals in your favour like the old saying goes their are no wrong notes only wrong resolutions
But the key is getting your ear and finger relationship working so you can play what you hear in your head which is the foundation of soloing

Any jazz drummers in the house? :wave:

hey i have been thoroughly confused with modes for some time now. i don't understand the purpose of modes if they are just the same scale in different starting positions thanks for any help.

[QUOTE=isaluteu]hey i have been thoroughly confused with modes for some time now. i don't understand the purpose of modes if they are just the same scale in different starting positions thanks for any help.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've never gotten that either. I mean, I know how to play them, but I don't know a whole lot of theory, so, hopefully someone can answer the question.

Alright, I can give you guys the breakdown on modes. Every key is composed of modes. The key of E major (which you should know) is made of the chords E major, F# minor, G#minor, A major, B major, C#minor, D#minor (flat fifth) and repeats itself from there. Each chord of the key represents a particular mode. The modes are as follows:
1-Ionian
2-Dorian
3-Phrygian
4-Lydian
5-Mixolydian
6-Phyagrian
7-Locrine

So, If you are playing a song in the key of E and the chord progression is E, G#minor, A, F#minor, then when you are soloing you would use the Ionian scale for the first part, the phrygian scale for the second part, the mixolydian scale for the third part, and the dorian scale for the fourth part. that's a loose breakdown, and please correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, you'd use the lydian scale for the third part (the A chord), but that doesn't answer their questions entirely.

The importance of modes is twofold. One, it simplifies playing over changes. It's easier to see Em7 and think "Dorian" than it is to see an Em7 and think "Em7 is the II chord of D major, so I'll play D major." Also, in jazz moreso than in rock or other genres, the chords are seperate from one another, even if they are in the same family. It sounds better over a II-V-I to [i]play[/i] the II chord, the V chord, and the I chord, instead of just playing a solo in the key of the I chord. It creates more of a sense of tension and resolution.

However, if you really wanted to, you could think this way, except for one small but important fact. The major scale contains "avoid" notes (bad term) which may work over some chords but not others that are part of the same family of scales. For instance, if you hold an F against a Cmaj7 chord, you should notice some disonance. [I can't tell you why (and neither can most people), but it has to do with the other tones that are present in the c note.] But an F sounds fine over a Dm7, or over a G7. And a C does not sound good over a G7. To see this more clearly, playing with modes will help.

To add one more point, there are no avoid notes in the melodic minor scale. It is possible to play the melodic minor scale over any of the chords that appear in melodic minor harmony.

I hope that gives you enough of a reason to learn your modes. While it is not essential, it is very helpful and will make things much clearer.

[QUOTE=spastic]Actually, you'd use the lydian scale for the third part (the A chord), but that doesn't answer their questions entirely.

The importance of modes is twofold. One, it simplifies playing over changes. It's easier to see Em7 and think "Dorian" than it is to see an Em7 and think "Em7 is the II chord of D major, so I'll play D major." Also, in jazz moreso than in rock or other genres, the chords are seperate from one another, even if they are in the same family. It sounds better over a II-V-I to [i]play[/i] the II chord, the V chord, and the I chord, instead of just playing a solo in the key of the I chord. It creates more of a sense of tension and resolution.

However, if you really wanted to, you could think this way, except for one small but important fact. The major scale contains "avoid" notes (bad term) which may work over some chords but not others that are part of the same family of scales. For instance, if you hold an F against a Cmaj7 chord, you should notice some disonance. [I can't tell you why (and neither can most people), but it has to do with the other tones that are present in the c note.] But an F sounds fine over a Dm7, or over a G7. And a C does not sound good over a G7. To see this more clearly, playing with modes will help.

To add one more point, there are no avoid notes in the melodic minor scale. It is possible to play the melodic minor scale over any of the chords that appear in melodic minor harmony.

I hope that gives you enough of a reason to learn your modes. While it is not essential, it is very helpful and will make things much clearer.[/QUOTE]


The way I see it, playing an F over a Cmaj7 chord creates a Cmaj7add11.

That means there's a minor second (or a minor ninth) interval between the E and the F, and a tritone interval between the B and the F.

It's the same chord as a G13(no5)/C, so it's not surprising that when you create [i]that[/i] chord out of what's supposed to be the I chord in a progression, it won't sound too great.

No, the F does not sound good (and I use the word good very loosely here) over a Cmaj7 chord. Most if not all musicians proficient in music theory will agree with me.

Mark Levine, the author of "The Jazz Theory Book", described it to me (as best as he could remember; he hadn't taken this course since college). Needless to say, if he didn't really remember then I certainly cannot explain it well at all, but I will give you the basic outline. As you probably know, within every note, there are a series of overtones (if you play a note really low, you can here them better). The overtones that come out the most strongly are the root, the second, the third, the perfect fifth, and the sixth. For whatever reason, when you combine the 4th with these notes, it sounds bad.

Now, I don't think it's necessary to know why it sounds bad, but nevertheless, that tone does sound dissonant over a major chord. If you lower it an octave it sounds alright, and if you only use it as a passing tone it sounds alright, but if you hold an F against a Cmaj chord, it sounds dissonant.

Agreed. I try to avoid the perfect fourth like the plague except as a passing tone in my soloing. It sounds too much like the chord is moving away from itself before the chord actually changes.

[QUOTE=spastic]No, the F does not sound good (and I use the word good very loosely here) over a Cmaj7 chord. Most if not all musicians proficient in music theory will agree with me.

Mark Levine, the author of "The Jazz Theory Book", described it to me (as best as he could remember; he hadn't taken this course since college). Needless to say, if he didn't really remember then I certainly cannot explain it well at all, but I will give you the basic outline. As you probably know, within every note, there are a series of overtones (if you play a note really low, you can here them better). The overtones that come out the most strongly are the root, the second, the third, the perfect fifth, and the sixth. For whatever reason, when you combine the 4th with these notes, it sounds bad.

Now, I don't think it's necessary to know why it sounds bad, but nevertheless, that tone does sound dissonant over a major chord. If you lower it an octave it sounds alright, and if you only use it as a passing tone it sounds alright, but if you hold an F against a Cmaj chord, it sounds dissonant.[/QUOTE]


I know it doesn't sound good.

I was just saying, perhaps the fact that the perfect fourth and the major seventh are a tritone apart has something to do with that. Like, if you play an F over a Cmaj7, it makes the B resolve to a C, and the F resolve to an E, same as any chord with that tritone in it.

[QUOTE=Silvermedalmafia]
1-Ionian
2-Dorian
3-Phrygian
4-Lydian
5-Mixolydian
6-Phyagrian
7-Locrine
[/QUOTE]

6 - Aeolian (natural minor)
7 - Locrian

[QUOTE=HaVIC5]Agreed. I try to avoid the perfect fourth like the plague except as a passing tone in my soloing. It sounds too much like the chord is moving away from itself before the chord actually changes.[/QUOTE]

exactly, lingering on the fourth implies a chord change to the listener. if the change doesnt happen it sounds confusing. at least thats my take on that.

but i have a question:

i heard one of my music teachers say that there are like 17 different rythmic patterns in the rythem alphabet (if you will). what are these 17 patterns? usually i deal with any sight-reading stuff as i see it but i think it would be really helpful to just memorize it.

i dont know about 17 but i have a book that does 42 i believe. it starts with 4/4 and does 7 attacks per measure every possible way then it goes to 6 attacks. then it does 3/4 and so on. its a really good book if you have trouble with reading rythms like dotted notes and such. its called melodic rythms for guitar but you could use it for any instrument. its a berklee press book.

[QUOTE=xhaereticusx]i dont know about 17 but i have a book that does 42 i believe. it starts with 4/4 and does 7 attacks per measure every possible way then it goes to 6 attacks. then it does 3/4 and so on. its a really good book if you have trouble with reading rythms like dotted notes and such. its called melodic rythms for guitar but you could use it for any instrument. its a berklee press book.[/QUOTE]

awesome, i may just pick that up. thanks.