Anyone in here like Team Sleep?

They ****ing rule.

Zach Hill on drums. gahhhhhhh

Ugh, please don't associate a band as good as Grade with a band as terrible as Saosin even if Grade did influence that whole genre of sound.

so i take it you don't like TSOAF?

lolololololooollllllllllkololololoolololololo

haha

pop punk forum

haha

someone post the link to that video of OTMOP doing For Meg and everyone singing along.

city of caterpillar owns so hard jesus i neglect this band

today i saw a fat emo kid, it was so akward.

in before the "ash"

guess who just got ****ing No Heroes in the mail in one of those bad *** spray painted packages.

I downloaded that new Circle Takes The Square live track from Starland that I saw them play from their site. I still think it's way mediocre compared to their other stuff.

is that the spaghetti one?

if it is, that song is great

i'm not happy about this, and i'll state why. i am mostly libertarian on the issues you guys have been mentioning like homosexuality, marijuana, abortion, ect, and therefore in disagreement with the republican party. however, i think we are currently faced with issues more critical to our future.

i care most about international relations, economics, smaller government, ect. on all those republicans in general are the better choice. pie in the sky liberals have too much power in the democratic party. what happened to joe lieberman, who would have my vote for president if he ran, is a great example of how realistic views have little place in that party.

its scary that there are many in the democratic party that actually want to force a withdrawal from iraq. whether you agreed with going in or not is largely irrelavant. now that we are there, we can't leave that country in this condition. it has to be stabilized before we can withdraw, and that will take years longer.

also, i don't agree with many democrats' economic views, like their desire to raise minimum wage again or their opposition to freer trade. we need to maintain our economic position in the world by efficiency through competition. if some guy in india or china can do a low level american job for 1/10 the wage, but at a favorable 1/8 productivity, then we should focus on training our workforce to do more skilled jobs, not futilely protecting those unskilled jobs.

also, i would like less government. i think there should be more privitazation or simply the elimination of some government services. there should be more personal responsibility. environmental policy is a great example. i know many people that demand that the government take actions that will cost hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in order to protect the environment. yet they drive cars that get 15 mpg, leave all the lights on in their house continuously, throw all kinds of stuff away that is still useful in order to get the newest and best, ect. i think if individuals relied on the government less and themselves more, we would be better off. on this republicans are the lesser of two evils.

but that said, there are some up sides to this. hopefully bush's dumbass tax cuts will get repealed. on the same note, i hope the republican party in general returns to policies of fiscal restraint. also, rumsfeld leaving is a good thing. he did have some good ideas about modernization and force structure, but he refused to accept that those models, while not necessarilly wrong, didn't apply to the current war. this resulted in a culture of denial emerging in the pentagon that was almost reminiscent of the vietnam war. i don't know much about his potential replacement yet, but a cia man bodes well. hopefully now we can deal with the war in a more realistic manner, which is the key to winning. we need to recognize that this will be a long and difficult process. once we do that, we can use more appropriate strategies.

[QUOTE=World Burns To Death;13592532]someone post the link to that video of OTMOP doing For Meg and everyone singing along.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://media.putfile.com/formeg[/url]

i posted it in here not too long ago, and nobody cared.

Sorry to make you feel bad but you can't win a war on terror. It's like winning the war on drugs, until there is no such thing as terrorism (which is never) the war will be considered a loss.

On Iraq, I'm sorry but if they are having a civil war let them keep it a civil war and not drag in international forces (aka Us) and have foreign bodies blood shed. Bush needs to be impeached because he and his administration are responsible for the entire breakdown of the government of Iraq, yes Sadaam was bad and I'm glad he's gone, but this shouldn't be the result of the removal of political figure.

I hate the idea of our country sticking our nose where ever the hell it pleases, but if it's going to be an International Police Force then it should focus on areas of the world that need some serious help. Uganda perhaps? I hope after the 2008 election whoever the victor is that they result to slowly withdraw the United States from a point of power and back into a policy of isolationism. Washington's Farewell Address was absolutely most correct document on foreign policy.


By the way this isn't supposed to an intelligent summation of my views, but a quick overview in response to srt-4's post.

[QUOTE=srt-4;13593156][url]http://media.putfile.com/formeg[/url]

i posted it in here not too long ago, and nobody cared.[/QUOTE]
i cared!!!

If Republicans were so great at handling foreign relations, economics etc etc. they probably should've fixed it in the six years they've had to do it themselves

I guess they're just not cut out for that though

Also your environmental talk only proves that the government should make environmental sanctions since it clearly doesn't work in a privatized or personal manner

I seriously could care less if we pulled out of Iraq, I didn't want to be there in the first place and only a complete fool would think it's going to work as a democracy due to our actions over there

[QUOTE=cobert;13592384]Some dude in pop-punk refuses to believe that Grade in any way influenced the genre we all call popcore. I guess he think Saosin thougt up all of this stuff on their own.[/QUOTE]

trying to get that kid to open his eyes was hard. needs to do his homework.

also good call on team sleep, i really like that record. Zach Hill is pretty phenomenal.

you can't just invade a country, tear it apart, and then leave it in a fierce civil war.

obviously troops should be pulled but a gradually pull will save more face and hold better for iraq itself than a full withdrawal

also i would not call bush's mistakes the mistakes of republicanism

[QUOTE=Matt?;13593287]you can't just invade a country, tear it apart, and then leave it in a fierce civil war.

obviously troops should be pulled but a gradually pull will save more face and hold better for iraq itself than a full withdrawal[/QUOTE]
Of course we don't want to just pull everyone since that would immediately destabilize the region and make us look bad

But to be quite honest I expect Iraq to go down the ****ter whether we're there or not, a civil war is likely regardless of us being there or not

A phased withdrawal works, but staying there is just making things worse for both countries
[QUOTE]also i would not call bush's mistakes the mistakes of republicanism[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't either, I'd call his administration's and the House/Senate's mistakes the mistakes of conservatism

[QUOTE=srt-4;13593065]i'm not happy about this, and i'll state why. i am mostly libertarian on the issues you guys have been mentioning like homosexuality, marijuana, abortion, ect, and therefore in disagreement with the republican party. however, i think we are currently faced with issues more critical to our future.

i care most about international relations, economics, smaller government, ect. on all those republicans in general are the better choice. pie in the sky liberals have too much power in the democratic party. what happened to joe lieberman, who would have my vote for president if he ran, is a great example of how realistic views have little place in that party.

its scary that there are many in the democratic party that actually want to force a withdrawal from iraq. whether you agreed with going in or not is largely irrelavant. now that we are there, we can't leave that country in this condition. it has to be stabilized before we can withdraw, and that will take years longer.

also, i don't agree with many democrats' economic views, like their desire to raise minimum wage again or their opposition to freer trade. we need to maintain our economic position in the world by efficiency through competition. if some guy in india or china can do a low level american job for 1/10 the wage, but at a favorable 1/8 productivity, then we should focus on training our workforce to do more skilled jobs, not futilely protecting those unskilled jobs.

also, i would like less government. i think there should be more privitazation or simply the elimination of some government services. there should be more personal responsibility. environmental policy is a great example. i know many people that demand that the government take actions that will cost hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in order to protect the environment. yet they drive cars that get 15 mpg, leave all the lights on in their house continuously, throw all kinds of stuff away that is still useful in order to get the newest and best, ect. i think if individuals relied on the government less and themselves more, we would be better off. on this republicans are the lesser of two evils.

but that said, there are some up sides to this. hopefully bush's dumbass tax cuts will get repealed. on the same note, i hope the republican party in general returns to policies of fiscal restraint. also, rumsfeld leaving is a good thing. he did have some good ideas about modernization and force structure, but he refused to accept that those models, while not necessarilly wrong, didn't apply to the current war. this resulted in a culture of denial emerging in the pentagon that was almost reminiscent of the vietnam war. i don't know much about his potential replacement yet, but a cia man bodes well. hopefully now we can deal with the war in a more realistic manner, which is the key to winning. we need to recognize that this will be a long and difficult process. once we do that, we can use more appropriate strategies.[/QUOTE]

I definitely do not agree with the cut and run ideal and I think most of the Democratic party knows that cutting and running would do more damage then good. Leaving Iraq in shambles would serve as a breeding ground for terrorism and basically make us more enemies than when we went in. But the fact is, secretarian violence is killing our troops and something needs to be done about it. I personally think Joe Biden's proposition should be looked into. But the bottom line, there is far too much secretarian violence and the newly formed Iraqi govt cannot handle it. Especially seeing how their police forces are made up of Sunnis who have the people of Iraq dumbfounded as to whom to trust because they see Shi'ite's being murdered by Sunni extremists in Iraqi police garb.

As far as environmental policy, I think the Democrats are more in favor of alternative energy sources than the big business GOP. A few days ago, George Bush all but stated that we were still in Iraq because we want control of their oil reserves.

vietnam 2: iraq

New topic:

The legalize marijuana intiative got defeated. :angry:

It's not a Vietnam because we have a economic reason to be there, not a good reason or even a legitmate reason but a reason. Vietnam was purely us being dumbf[size="2"]u[/size]cks and deciding to intervene in a war that had absolutely nothing to do with us. I also know many people who are veterans of this war because the life expectancy of a soldier in Iraq is astronomically better than that of Vietnam soldiers.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;13593400]New topic:

The legalize marijuana intiative got defeated. :angry:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, st[size="2"]i[/size]ngy f[size="2"]u[/size]cks. I was hoping this would pass then sweep the nation in 2008, and I would be able to toke freely.

obviously it's not the same but there are parallels in the way the war is fought, and the difficulties in finishing what we started.

The only similarity I see is the unpopularity, the administration being very close-minded, and going into war which had nothing to with us.

And fighting a war in a place that is completely different on a cultural level

there are many, the fighting itself is similar albeit completely different terrain.

more importantly it's vietnam esque in the way that we don't seem to have a really good idea of what to do now that we're in.

Yeah, we went into Vietnam with a stupid "OMG DEYR COMMIES LETS GETUM!!!" mentality, and got raped for more than half of a decade.

Now everyone shhhh, [I]Jericho[/I] is on.

It's similar in the fact that the psychological effects on the minds of our troops have drive them to violate ethical principles of war.

I ended up missing like, every other 5 minutes of Jericho, now I have to wait until tomorrow.

Democrats won in Virginia.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;13593343]I definitely do not agree with the cut and run ideal and I think most of the Democratic party knows that cutting and running would do more damage then good. Leaving Iraq in shambles would serve as a breeding ground for terrorism and basically make us more enemies than when we went in. But the fact is, secretarian violence is killing our troops and something needs to be done about it. I personally think Joe Biden's proposition should be looked into. But the bottom line, there is far too much secretarian violence and the newly formed Iraqi govt cannot handle it. Especially seeing how their police forces are made up of Sunnis who have the people of Iraq dumbfounded as to whom to trust because they see Shi'ite's being murdered by Sunni extremists in Iraqi police garb.

As far as environmental policy, I think the Democrats are more in favor of alternative energy sources than the big business GOP. A few days ago, George Bush all but stated that we were still in Iraq because we want control of their oil reserves.[/QUOTE]
i like that you have informed opinions. too many people have strong opinions but no real understanding. ya, i'm thinking something along the lines of biden's plan will probably be the way to go. although, point five of his "five-point plan", the withdraw of most troops within a little over a year, i don't agree with at all. there still will be strong actors inside iraq working against any compromise. putting any date on a troop withdraw will work against us, no matter what the plan being put in place is. and i think the role iran would play in that situation needs to be considered very thoroughly, particularly the relation they would form with the shi'a area.

subtledagger, i believe the government has a role in establishing reasonable environmental regulations, and most importantly, in encouraging technological innovations to address the problems. i don't believe it should enact strict measures that would harm the economy. if the segments of society that place value on this issue aren't willing to make sacrifices for it, then how is it fair for the government to force the country as a whole to bear the burden?

and ben, washington's farewell address is very misunderstood. that section of it has no relevance to today's world. it was intended to protect us. the united states wasn't powerful. getting involved in europe's wars would likely have ended very badly for us. we needed to grow up. we weren't even a great power, let alone the leading power, until the mid 19th century. now we are the greatest power in the world. we can't withdraw from world politics. having an empire in the world, especially one as comparatively benevolent as us, is good for the world. for example, the world advanced greatly under the british, who we inherited world leadership from. it has similarly advanced with us as the world power. on the other hand, take the clearest case in history of hegemonic collapse without a natural successor, the fall of the roman empire. western civilization by most general accounts was set back centuries. in general, civilization advances under empire, not apolarity. and better us than if we had let the soviet union dominate the world, or possibly china in the years to come.

Ok, I understand the relevance of what Washington was saying at the time, the growing favortism of the Federalists to Britain and Republicans to France etc., however, this would have ensured our country peace if we had chosen to stay out of the imperialism rush of the late 19th century and early 20th century. Yes it would be completely impossible to instantaneously withdraw as the superpower, yet this doesn't touch the fact that we can slowly withdraw over a period of time. It is possible to be a neutral country in today's society, please have a look at Switzerland. We need to pull out of Iraq because as Chris stated it's going down the s[size="2"]h[/size]itter anyways along with that entire region, better to get out now then have to waste more American lives. People have anger and direct military and terrorist actions at this country because we have a hand in all international affairs and allow our citizens to claim that we are the greatest nation in the world. This war on terror is nothing unique really, if during the 19th century there was the technology available today Great Britain or Prussia/Germany (depending on what part of the century) would be conducting a war on terror because of the uprisings and rebellions that would happen throughout it's colonies. I also again want to state how ignorant it is for our nation to be at with "terror". I could declare today that I am at war with racism but know that it will never be eradicated. So by declaring war on something so vague and large the government is merely setting itself up for a fall. Politicians or rednecks or flag humping people may call me a coward but I believe in cut and run I am not willing to have another soldier meet their untimely demise by Iraqi insurgency because our government is trying to create a puppet government in Iraq right now. If you do not believe that a puppet government is what is trying to be created please think about it, yes we are trying to create a government friendly to ours, but with all the violence that is occuring military officials have basically been in command of Iraq. I would rather have our soldiers home alive and our politicians called cowards because we withdrew then have more families grieving over the loss of their children/parents/siblings. Life is a bit more precious to me than power.

you can't just cut and run though. this might be a pretty damn controversial oppinion but us soldiers enlist with the knowledge of the dangers of war, and i think that pulling all of the troops out at this moment is the wrong idea.

the problem is that with our country's "mission statement" (if you would call it that) after leaving iraq there would be extreme hostility and civil war, which really is a bad thing for our image / foreign policy and politics. if anything we need to hold our ground at least until the time is right, which to be honest seems more and more like a date that will never arrive due to lacking supplies for troops / and a resilient enemy that really doesn't seem like it's gonna just give up

Yeah, all soldiers know the dangers of war, but they don't believe they're going to die.

That's the point, I used to believe that we should wait until the time is right, but that time is not going to come. Our image may take a hit, but that civil war was going to come no matter what. I may get sh[size="2"]i[/size]t on for saying this, but if they want war let them have it.

Guys, start talking about emo.

I WUV HAWTHORNE HEIGHTS

So I thought about my ex a couple weeks ago and wrote a poem, is that emo enough for you Justin?

I wrote a poem about my girlfriend's boobs the other day.

Which Hot Water Music records are their best? I already have [i]Caution[/i], which I love.

[I]A Flight and a Crash[/I]

Sometimes I slit my wrists...........hahaha, psh. I don't like what the word "emo" has turned into. The original emo was nothing like hawthorne heights or anything like it.