[QUOTE]The difference is that in that scenario she's choosing to utilize neither, but in the case of Agnosticism, to chose neither side is to choose objectivity which is impossible.[/QUOTE]

We are choosing. Theists interpret some experiences or whatever as proof for God, Atheists interpret the absence of concrete evidence as proof that he doesn't exist. Agnostics, however, choose to believe that neither argument is strong enough to make up one's mind about an important matter such as the existence of a deity.

We're not just going, [I]*shrug* Guuuuh, I dunno, boss! :\ [/I] or something, we just feel that there are no facts to base theist or atheist beliefs on. And having an opinion based on nothing is silly.

[QUOTE=Superpeer]Well, I'd rather not call myself something that I can't base on facts. If you don't believe it exists, why would you care about it, if you think it's not true, but you can't really prove it, it's better to agnostically leave it in the middle.[/quote]But there are no facts. In science almost all the things we believe are simply theories we've yet to disprove. But we still believe them. That's how I see my religion. I have a stance that I'll hold until it's disproven by whatever evidence I find compelling. I don't say cold fusion is impossible just because it hasn't been done yet. I believe it may happen. But if there arises evidence it is impossible, then I'll believe it's impossible. *shrug* (Probably a bad example because I seem to recall someone claiming cold fusion is impossible but eh)
[quote='Peer]
I never said it did. That would be stupid, since I told you I'm an agnostic and I don't want to try to prove that god exists. :\ I'm aware of the fact that it's a building, I was simply pointing out that it has a sense of mysticism and that it moves something, as I was confronted with catholicism in primary school. It wasn't meant to prove anything.

I'm pretty sure there isn't some big guy with a large beard sitting in heaven looking down, but I can't say for sure. I am less sure about the fact that there is a higher power, now that's something I really can't form an opinion about, because I can't verify it. I mean, the things that happen in nature, some of it is pretty amazing, so maybe nature itself is the higher power, you can never say.
[/quote]
Right, I'm sorry if you didn't catch that I understood that. I mean, yes, there's a sense of grandeur and mysticism, but rather than attribute that to a higher power, I attribute it to the awesomeness of man. :)

I don't see nature as a higher power, per se. But if that's what you were calling your belief in a higher power I'd not be inclined to argue as I know how awesome nature is.
[quote=Jelloface]
It's just a matter of logic. If I say to you : "I have in my hand a €50 bill" and hold my hands behind my back and ask you if it's true, wouldn't it be silly if you said that you can't really know, but you believe I don't, regardless. I think it would be. You're a silly person. :mad:[/QUOTE]
No, I'd say I don't think so, or I think so. There's no reason to state that I can't know for sure, that's obvious.[QUOTE=Superpeer]We are choosing. Theists interpret some experiences or whatever as proof for God, Atheists interpret the absence of concrete evidence as proof that he doesn't exist. Agnostics, however, choose to believe that neither argument is strong enough to make up one's mind about an important matter such as the existence of a deity.

We're not just going, [I]*shrug* Guuuuh, I dunno, boss! :\ [/I] or something, we just feel that there are no facts to base theist or atheist beliefs on. And having an opinion based on nothing is silly.[/QUOTE]
It may be silly, but nonetheless you do have one. Don't fall into the fallacy of assuming you're immune to having an opinion just because it has no basis. :)

[QUOTE]But there are no facts. In science almost all the things we believe are simply theories we've yet to disprove. But we still believe them. That's how I see my religion. I have a stance that I'll hold until it's disproven by whatever evidence I find compelling. I don't say cold fusion is impossible just because it hasn't been done yet. I believe it may happen. But if there arises evidence it is impossible, then I'll believe it's impossible. *shrug* (Probably a bad example because I seem to recall someone claiming cold fusion is impossible but eh)[/QUOTE]

Exactly, there are no facts. That's what I said. Yeah, I guess you're right about that, but still, I wouldn't put religion and a scientific theory on the same level. For some people, religion = science, God explains it all. A lot of theories are pretty obvious though. Gravity exists, okay, you can't really prove it's there, but the fact that we don't fly and we do in space should lead most of us to believe the theory.

The existence of God is different however, there is as good as nothing that could lead you anywhere. I think the same about scientific theories that are as vague, unless they make a lot of sense. Atheism and Theism is just guessing, though.


[QUOTE]Right, I'm sorry if you didn't catch that I understood that. I mean, yes, there's a sense of grandeur and mysticism, but rather than attribute that to a higher power, I attribute it to the awesomeness of man.

I don't see nature as a higher power, per se. But if that's what you were calling your belief in a higher power I'd not be inclined to argue as I know how awesome nature is.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't think it is either, just saying that there is a thing called mysticism, etc. That doesn't really matter so much.

I didn't say nature IS a higher power, I'm just saying that the amazing things that happen and are not influenced by man shows that it could be possible, not saying it is, but there's that possibility again.

[QUOTE]No, I'd say I don't think so, or I think so. There's no reason to state that I can't know for sure, that's obvious.[/QUOTE]

But you would take a complete leap in the dark. Why not stick with the obvious? It's the obvious thing to do. And don't give me that rebel s[COLOR="White"]h[/COLOR]it either. Why just pluck an opinion out of the sky, just for the sake of having a coloured opinion. You can't seem to realise that saying that you can't really know is an opinion too.

You talkin' 'bout Religion?

If so, I don't believe in god, cos I've never seen him.

i bet u believe in santa when you were little

Yes, but then you were that young, you believed anything.

I take alot of influence from my beliefs in the Bible, however I do read other holy books and integrate the ideas I think are good and resonable into what I believe. I guess I just hate science because it doesn't answer any of the questions I have in my mind and it also suggests the impossibility of spirituality, which might explain why evolution turns me off.

Meh. In my Opinion, If there was no religion, there would be at least half the amount of wars.

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]Meh. In my Opinion, If there was no religion, there would be at least half the amount of wars.[/QUOTE]
The wars would be about other issues. There's always an underlying motive behind a religious war and religions that haven't been mutilated by greed and power don't promote war.

I think there would also be half as much reason to live in my opinion. If there is only the mundane, I wouldn't want to live. I can feel forces, that I can't see, deep down and that's why I live.

[QUOTE=Moses]The wars would be about other issues.

[B]I think there would also be half as much reason to live in my opinion[/B]. If there is only the mundane, I wouldn't want to live. I can feel forces, that I can't see, deep down and that's why I live.[/QUOTE]
Stuff like that really turns me off to religion. There is so much to live for with out knowing for sure if there is a higher power. Music, Art, human emotions, socialization etc.

True. Money, and Power. Think of it in thirds, one 3rd Power, one 3rd Money, and 3rd Religion. then, change it to percent. 33% of all the wars ever waged wouldn't have been.

[QUOTE=Moses]The wars would be about other issues.

I think there would also be half as much reason to live in my opinion. If there is only the mundane, I wouldn't want to live. I can feel forces, that I can't see, deep down and that's why I live.[/QUOTE]

Art takes us away from the mundane as well, whether it be music, film, architecture, paintings or whatever. It's mystic and spiritual, whether or not a deity conceals itself in it is not that important.

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]True. Money, and Power. Think of it in thirds, one 3rd Power, one 3rd Money, and 3rd Religion. then, change it to percent. 33% of all the wars ever waged wouldn't have been.[/QUOTE]
All of which rely on each other.

[QUOTE=Superpeer]Art takes us away from the mundane as well, whether it be music, film, architecture, paintings or whatever. It's mystic and spiritual, whether or not a deity conceals itself in it is not that important.[/QUOTE]
Art suggests a mirror image of the artists' soul. Religion doesn't neccesarily mean there is a deity, just somthing to believe in other than what we see and touch.
[QUOTE=guitrguy]Stuff like that really turns me off to religion. There is so much to live for with out knowing for sure if there is a higher power. Music, Art, human emotions, socialization etc.[/QUOTE]
Only basing your life on what science gives you doesn't give art a chance. You have to look past what is concrete and actually try to perceive somthing in a different way other than your five senses to recognize somthing as art. Non of the things you mentioned are explained by science.

[QUOTE=guitrguy]All of which rely on each other.[/QUOTE]
I you mean Religion, War and Power all rely on each other?

[QUOTE=Moses]Art suggests a mirror image of the artists' soul. Religion doesn't neccesarily mean there is a deity, just somthing to believe in other than what we see and touch.[/QUOTE]

So you don't believe there is a deity?

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]I you mean Religion, War and Power all rely on each other?[/QUOTE]
Yes, its interwined with each other. Thats why I love human nature so much.

[QUOTE=Superpeer]So you don't believe there is a deity?[/QUOTE]
When did I imply that? I just meant that you don't have to believe in a deity to be religious, it's just very common.

[QUOTE=guitrguy]Yes, its interwined with each other. Thats why I love human nature so much.[/QUOTE]
Still, I don't think Religion can exist in a modern world anymore.

i see religion and belief systems as something completely different. I see religion as something to create a division in people, where as I think my belief would unite them

[QUOTE=Moses]When did I imply that? I just meant that you don't have to believe in a deity to be religious, it's just very common.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.

Well, I've posted my thoughts already, if you're interested, they're all over the last few pages. :p

A bit tired of discussing it right now. Plus there's usually no point persuading a religious person. They're usually pretty stubborn.

NP: Beethoven things from the Ninth symphony

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]Still, I don't think Religion can exist in a modern world anymore.[/QUOTE]


religion doesnt have to exist, but some form of "God" does

It's also possible that some religions, such as Christianity were founded on a lie, and used as a scam to get money from people.

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]It's also possible that some religions, such as Christianity were founded on a lie, and used as a scam to get money from people.[/QUOTE]


well, conversely, man could have found his way to MAKE money out of something pure, and exploit that like he does everything else

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]It's also possible that some religions, such as Christianity were founded on a lie, and used as a scam to get money from people.[/QUOTE]


highly unlikely

[QUOTE=Superpeer]A bit tired of discussing it right now. Plus there's usually no point persuading a religious person. They're usually pretty stubborn.[/QUOTE]
Human beings in general are pretty stubborn. What are you trying to persuade a religious person to do? I'll look back and read a while.

I also agree, these conversations become very tiring.
[QUOTE=Doctor Night]It's also possible that some religions, such as Christianity were founded on a lie, and used as a scam to get money from people.[/QUOTE]
When Christianity was founded, tithes were not collected. Later however they needed money.

Religion is usually based on principles of love, gathering, strength in unity and all sorts of heart warming things. It's natural for humans to introduce greed and power into religion. That's why this world will forever be in struggle.

[QUOTE=z-sprout]highly unlikely[/QUOTE]
Why is that?

[QUOTE=Moses]Human beings in general are pretty stubborn. What are you trying to persuade a religious person to do? I'll look back and read a while.

I also agree, these conversations become very tiring.[/QUOTE]


religion and polotics are really the stupidest things to try to argue/persuade people about

[QUOTE=Moses] I guess I just hate science because it doesn't answer any of the questions I have in my mind[/QUOTE]

It's much easier to hate religion for this reason. How would you answer these:

Why did God created Man?
Why did he have to test Man when He knew (God knows it all!) that he was going to reject Him?

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]Why is that?[/QUOTE]

because i said so.

people have become dissilutioned about christianity over the years (indulgences/Tetzl)

but if you look at newer religions such as protestantism- definetly not a ploy to make money.

[QUOTE=Stoic]Why did he have to test Man when He knew (God knows it all!) that he was going to reject Him?[/QUOTE]

not a universal idea. deism "disproves" that.