if tinychat means anything, hes exactly the same

Well, the idea of marriage doesn't get me excited either, and I think having children is just plain immoral in this fucked up world, but I just have to say this: you haven't really formed any decent argument against commitment in a relationship either, adb, or against irl friendship and that. You keep telling everyone they don't form sound arguments, but most of your assertions are just that: assertions, with no arguments to back them up.

"blinkered views"

seriously, saying theres no point in arguing w/ me has and always been a cop out. All I want to hear is a counter argument to what I said.

and lol, noon wtf u talking about

[QUOTE=Morumbar;18623615]Well, the idea of marriage doesn't get me excited either, and I think having children is just plain immoral in this fucked up world, but I just have to say this: you haven't really formed any decent argument against commitment in a relationship either, adb, or against irl friendship and that. You keep telling everyone they don't form sound arguments, but most of your assertions are just that: assertions, with no arguments to back them up.[/QUOTE]

i see not having kids for that reason as something quite fatalistic about the future. sure the world is fucked up in many respects but life is essentially what you make it especially in a free society like we enjoy. i could understand you saying that more if you were living in a warzone, for example

kids are simply not worth the investment

the finances you have to pump into them for the happiness you get is not worth it

the whole idea of the american dream is abhorrent

[QUOTE]you haven't really formed any decent argument against commitment in a relationship either, adb, or against irl friendship and that. You keep telling everyone they don't form sound arguments, but most of your assertions are just that: assertions, with no arguments to back them up.[/QUOTE]

I stated how traditions can be refuted with a simple google search

and it is implied that everyone gets bored easier nowadays.

I think commitment is just an outdated thing. Social norms will never allow polygamy or simply having multiple sex partners. Where are those norms rooted in? Tradition

tradition contradicts biology

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623618]"blinkered views"

seriously, saying theres no point in arguing w/ me has and always been a cop out. All I want to hear is a counter argument to what I said.

and lol, noon wtf u talking about[/QUOTE]

my first post about marriage had points in favour of marriage. the idea of kids having the stability of a mother and father being together is a point in favour of marriage. you have not addressed either of those points

[quote]Well, the idea of marriage doesn't get me excited either, and I think having children is just plain immoral in this fucked up world,[/quote]gotta disagree

by anyway measure we are living in the safest, wealthiest, healthiest, most culturally rich and engaging times humankind has ever been through.

yes isolated events are perceived to be terrible, or getting worse but you must consider that as our power to do evil increases, as we grow in unique human lives exponentially, the billions more people that exist since even from the day we were born, the event or dissemination of particularly threatening ideas that would seem rare or unreal becomes more and more likely.

you underestimate this^

[QUOTE=Stevie;18623622]i see not having kids for that reason as something quite fatalistic about the future. sure the world is fucked up in many respects but life is essentially what you make it especially in a free society like we enjoy. i could understand you saying that more if you were living in a warzone, for example[/QUOTE]
Idk, I see life as something undesirable, regardless of health, safety, friendship, love and wealth. But let's not get into that right now. I've noticed people are tired of that discussion here on MX.

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623623]I stated how traditions can be refuted with a simple google search[/quote]
This is still not a sound argument.

[quote]and it is implied that everyone gets bored easier nowadays. [/quote]
This doesn't refute monogamy.

[quote]I think commitment is just an outdated thing. Social norms will never allow polygamy or simply having multiple sex partners. Where are those norms rooted in? Tradition[/quote]
You have yet to prove that all traditions are dumb, or that monogamy has no value or use in society.

[quote]tradition contradicts biology[/QUOTE]
Why should biological urges be valued over tradition or commonly held moral values? Plus, if biology is to be valued, doesn't that then mean you should reproduce as much as possible, as opposed to not having children?

[QUOTE=Stevie;18623624]my first post about marriage had points in favour of marriage. the idea of kids having the stability of a mother and father being together is a point in favour of marriage. you have not addressed either of those points[/QUOTE]

it depends on the marriage. a dyfunctional one is awful for raising kids, staying together just for the sake of their kids..I have first hand experience of that

my rebuttal is DON'T HAVE KIDS. I could never be w/ a girl who wanted kids

I'm adamant in my view of kids. They're god awful.

[QUOTE=Morumbar;18623629]Idk, I see life as something undesirable, regardless of health, safety, friendship, love and wealth. [b]But let's not get into that right now. I've noticed people are tired of that discussion here on MX.[/b][/quote]

alright

[QUOTE]tradition contradicts biology [/QUOTE]tradition is the simplest biology,
it is the direct result of what our senses tell us,
tradition is what the economy is built on, if we didn't honor contracts or money or get marketing degrees and believe in all of that then you would be right

belief and giving arbitrary value to trivial things is what culture and simple healthy social functioning is built on

traditions are dumb because I don't believe there is much scientific roots. I could be wrong, but I believe traditions and social norms have been past on from generations

those generations had no means to question or challenge.

I'm saying the internet era has changed the entire world in ways nothing has and probably never will again.

It is the ultimate in destroying faulty reasoning, along with constant technological advancment

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623623]kids are simply not worth the investment

the finances you have to pump into them for the happiness you get is not worth it[/quote]
Aren't you always going on about bare assertions? I wasn't aware that you are the standard gauge of happiness.


[quote]the whole idea of the american dream is abhorrent[/quote]
Having or wanting children isn't necessarily predicated on fulfilling the American dream.


[quote]I think commitment is just an outdated thing. Social norms will never allow polygamy or simply having multiple sex partners. Where are those norms rooted in?[/quote]
Things like polyamorous relationships do exist. They might not be the norm, but they certainly exist, and are more socially acceptable than practicing polygamy. I'm not sure why you care so much about fulfilling social norms in regards to relationships, though. If you and your partner want to sleep around, then you can do that.

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623631]it depends on the marriage. a dyfunctional one is awful for raising kids, staying together just for the sake of their kids..I have first hand experience of that[/QUOTE]

of course not all marriages work but you have to understand the merit of a functioning family where mother and father work together to do what is best for the child. you argued that people want to move on from partner to partner. what do you think that does to a child if their parent 'gets bored' and moves on?

[quote]my rebuttal is DON'T HAVE KIDS. I could never be w/ a girl who wanted kids

I'm adamant in my view of kids. They're god awful.[/QUOTE]

my response is exactly the same....so we'll all stop having kids and humanity gets wiped out...

or, am i just twisting your words

[QUOTE]there is no point when you put words in my mouth and twist everything around to make me sound dumb[/QUOTE]

he doesn't need to, you do such a great job of sounding dumb all by yourself

which will be great for later in life when you've inevitably alienated everyone around you and you'll have to argue with yourself

look at the chubby kid! !!! haHAHA!
[QUOTE]Aren't you always going on about bare assertions? I wasn't aware that you are the standard gauge of happiness.
[/QUOTE]

how is that a bare assertion saying kids are an investment hur durf. You reap what you sow in them, and even then they're still their own entity and can think for themselves. Kids are the most variable thing you can possibly exist with.

[QUOTE]of course not all marriages work but you have to understand the merit of a functioning family where mother and father work together to do what is best for the child. you argued that people want to move on from partner to partner. what do you think that does to a child if their parent 'gets bored' and moves on?[/QUOTE]

they cheat. cheating happens because they tire of something - either their predictable sex, lack of happiness...or just making a dumb decision based on visuals (finding a hot dude at a bar and being impulsive, idk)

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623637]traditions are dumb because I don't believe there is much scientific roots. I could be wrong, but I believe traditions and social norms have been past on from generations[/quote]
Traditions have, but social norms fluctuate much faster than traditions.

[quote]those generations had no means to question or challenge.[/quote]
Questioning and challenging ideas has been a dominant part of world history, especially in the late 18th-20th centuries.

[quote]I'm saying the internet era has changed the entire world in ways nothing has and probably never will again.[/quote]
The internet has made challenging and questioning ideas and authority more ubiquitous (e.g. the Arab Spring), but statements like:
[quote]It is the ultimate in destroying faulty reasoning, along with constant technological advancment[/QUOTE]
are probably a bit optimistic, unfortunately.

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623637]traditions are dumb because I don't believe there is much scientific roots. I could be wrong, but I believe traditions and social norms have been past on from generations

those generations had no means to question or challenge.

I'm saying the internet era has changed the entire world in ways nothing has and probably never will again.

It is the ultimate in destroying faulty reasoning, along with constant technological advancment[/QUOTE]

our society is built on centuries of trial and improvement. i think it's really dangerous in this modern age that people are so arrogant that they think they [especially this young arrogant generation] know better than age old traditions that exist in so many cultures in the world. sure you could argue against more superficial or irrelevant parts of tradition and i would agree there, but when it comes to something like marriage it has deep implications for society that we shouldn't sweep aside with some half thought out ideas.

related to traditions more and more im understanding the importance of taking advice from elders. when you're young you think you know the world but you don't. more and more i'm realising with experiences here and there that i actually know very little and still have a lot to learn from my parents, grandparents etc. how is this related to traditions? it's about listening and respecting what has more experience and wisdom that you have

[QUOTE]related to traditions more and more im understanding the importance of taking advice from elders. when you're young you think you know the world but you don't. more and more i'm realising with experiences here and there that i actually know very little and still have a lot to learn from my parents, grandparents etc. how is this related to traditions? it's about listening and respecting what has more experience and wisdom that you have[/QUOTE]yeah this is true. these are real things, wisdom and experience

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623643]how is that a bare assertion saying kids are an investment hur durf. You reap what you sow in them, and even then they're still their own entity and can think for themselves. Kids are the most variable thing you can possibly exist with.[/QUOTE]

You didn't just say that kid's were an investment. You said that the happiness that one will get out of children is not worth the investment. That is an absolute statement about something that's rather relative.

[quote=gregulus;18623650]Traditions have, but social norms fluctuate much faster than traditions.


Questioning and challenging ideas has been a dominant part of world history, especially in the late 18th-20th centuries.


The internet has made challenging and questioning ideas and authority more ubiquitous (e.g. the Arab Spring), but statements like:

are probably a bit optimistic, unfortunately.[/quote]
regarding the last statement, says who?

I mean I would focus more on the technology rather than specifically the internet of course because I'm not brent but there no metrics to make value judgements about our place in history to be either optimistic or pessimistic.

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623643]they cheat. cheating happens because they tire of something - either their predictable sex, lack of happiness...or just making a dumb decision based on visuals (finding a hot dude at a bar and being impulsive, idk)[/QUOTE]

i've already acknowledged that many marriages fail. at the same time many marriages succeed. quit avoiding my point and answer my point about the merits of a functioning family.

I can respect some of the experiences my dad has had and can learn from them, however, many decision making techniques are outdated because the internet exists now.

[QUOTE=(*The Noonward Race*);18623653]yeah this is true. these are real things, wisdom and experience[/QUOTE]

by 'what' i mean elders and your culture...not exactly tangible but whatever

I think the mitigation of suffering (or what most would call maximisation of happiness) is more important than the constant acknowledgement and affirmation of biological urges, and I don't think careless hedonism on a global scale would be very helpful towards mitigating suffering.

the internet has superseded decision making techniques, what?

if anything I think people have the ability to filter out conflicting information more and more and not be challenged, I think there is a huge danger in this

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623659]I can respect some of the experiences my dad has had and can learn from them, however, many decision making techniques are outdated because the internet exists now.[/QUOTE]

the internet means that obtaining knowledge is a lot easier. aside from that the internet has no positive bearing on morals and values

[QUOTE=Haz;18623663]the internet has superseded decision making techniques, what?

if anything I think people have the ability to filter out conflicting information more and more and not be challenged, I think there is a huge danger in this[/QUOTE]

yeah that's why i don't debate on the internet...

much :(

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623609]wake me when you guys can formulate a decent counter argument instead of doing what youre doing now[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=adbforever;18623643]look at the chubby kid! !!! haHAHA!
[/QUOTE]


man you didn't even give yourself a chance with this one

[QUOTE=Stevie;18623664]the internet means that obtaining knowledge is a lot easier. aside from that the internet has no positive bearing on morals and values[/QUOTE]

exactly. But I think with knowledge personal morals and values can be a bi-product

common sense is mainly my moral standard

[QUOTE=Morumbar;18623662]I think the mitigation of suffering (or what most would call maximisation of happiness) is more important than the constant acknowledgement and affirmation of biological urges, and I don't think careless hedonism on a global scale would be very helpful towards mitigating suffering.[/QUOTE]
Satisfying 'hedonist' biological urges != having a child.

I think the main thing here is that tradition is really only useful if it's a specific sort of situation

finding things on the internet are more broad ideas

like you can learn to do a lot of shit from the internet

but if you need to go downtown and speak with some faggot your dad knows, he's gonna know more about him than the internet does (but that can change and already is thanks to fb)

that doesn't really explain this:

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623659]I can respect some of the experiences my dad has had and can learn from them, however, many decision making techniques are outdated because the internet exists now.[/QUOTE]

how does the internet mean that the way we make decisions?

[quote=adbforever;18623671]exactly. But I think with knowledge personal morals and values can be a bi-product

common sense is mainly my moral standard[/quote]
Common sense is pithy whore tradition, based off of social superstition.


It's ridiculous to ascribe someone else a proper way to live with words, be they tradition or the cult of common sense.

This should be obvious to you right?

[QUOTE]how does the internet mean that the way we make decisions?[/QUOTE]

it helps us make better ones via experiences of others with people, products, and services

hate to use dating sites as an example, so I'll say look at amazon. Customer reviews on products.

before the internet word of mouth was dominant. A sample size of 100 is more accurate than the size of 1. The opinions of the many generally outweigh the opinions of the few.

[QUOTE=(*The Noonward Race*);18623674]Satisfying 'hedonist' biological urges != having a child.[/QUOTE]

I know. My response was mostly towards adb's implied value of biology and the hedonistic affirmation of biological urges over traditions such as commitment and trust.

[QUOTE=adbforever;18623685]it helps us make better ones via experiences of others with people, products, and services

hate to use dating sites as an example, so I'll say look at amazon. Customer reviews on products.

before the internet word of mouth was dominant. A sample size of 100 is more accurate than the size of 1. [b]The opinions of the many generally outweigh the opinions of the few.[/b][/QUOTE]

what does that mean for well established cultural traditions?

besides, no it doesn't make us better. sure you can interact with more people and there are benefits of that but there are also problems. the anonymity of the internet means that people can behave as badly as they want without any consequences. they end up doing things and treating other people how they would not in the real world because firstly there are no consequences and secondly because they cannot see the effect their behaviour is having on their victims.

secondly, the ease of obtaining anything anyone wants to see means that people become desensitized to horrible things. that cannot be a good thing

brent talking about common sense, morals, and standards is funny

brent implying he has any of the above is terrifying

but what do i know i weigh more than 87 pounds

i love how he satisfies my curiosity about what lies in the mind of a marketing major

lmao

exactly the sort of paranoid frenetic ado about nothing i always imagined