Korn isn't hard... listen to Korn, Life Is Peachy, and Take A Look In The Mirror. Those are the hardest albums I own. It's not exactly metal, but it sure as h*ll isn't nu-Metal. Untouchables, that album is nu-Metal but it's good.

Linkin Park is not metal.

Originally Posted by Grey Incision
How is korn considered metal? if thats the idea you've got, then linkin park are metal ffs. *BUZZ* **** NO! you get a bunch of 12 year old girls in a room and play some korn, they will most likely start nodding their heads and start saying it's good because they want to be hardcore like MTV, you put some Opeth,slayer, In flames and even bloody slipknot on, and they will start crying or getting scared or something. Metal generally has talent involved, korn = talentless IMO, just a bit of drop D and a 5 note riff. nu-metal, honestly, i don't even think nu-metal deserves to be called metal, i think it's crap, but once again, that's just my opinion. in short OPETH=****ING BRILLIANT AND METAL!!!! KORN=PRETTY CRAP NON METAL STUFF

yeah... ok then.. korn is pretty... WTF R U ON?, they don't have anything remotely pretty sounding. HAVE YOU EVER EVEN LISTENED TO KORN? THERE ISN'T A SINGLE PRETTY THING ABOUT THEIR MUSIC. Get 12 year old girls in the room and they'll like korn... ok boss. When I was in 6th grade I started listening to them. At my one friends B-Day party I put in Life Is Peachy, the one girl said "How can you listen to that evil satanist music,". Hardcore like MTV... are you kidding me. Name one thing hardcore about MTV they fukking banned the video for Right Now because it was "too hardcore"

[QUOTE]:Yeah System of a Down is nu metal no matter how hard you try to say otherwise.
yeah that's right and deserve it the best...

lol

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]yeah... ok then.. korn is pretty... WTF R U ON?, they don't have anything remotely pretty sounding.[/QUOTE]

I think you read that wrong. I think he was trying to say it as in "This music is pretty bad."

To further clarify, the way he said it, pretty = really.

I'm not even going to fight it anymore, whatever you say man. Obviously their are some people out here that like korn and your amazing god of "opeth" too.

:: points to self ::

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]yeah... ok then.. korn is pretty... WTF R U ON?, they don't have anything remotely pretty sounding. HAVE YOU EVER EVEN LISTENED TO KORN? THERE ISN'T A SINGLE PRETTY THING ABOUT THEIR MUSIC. Get 12 year old girls in the room and they'll like korn... ok boss. When I was in 6th grade I started listening to them. At my one friends B-Day party I put in Life Is Peachy, the one girl said "How can you listen to that evil satanist music,". Hardcore like MTV... are you kidding me. Name one thing hardcore about MTV they fukking banned the video for Right Now because it was "too hardcore"[/QUOTE]

1) I know tons of 12-year-old girls who like Korn. They're on the same level as Sum 41 and Blink 182 here. Everyone either likes all three or hates all three. I don't know how old you are, but times have most likely changed considerably since you were in 6th grade. Mainstream music moves with incredible alacrity.

2) He didn't say pretty, he said pretty crap. Massive difference.

3) He used hardcore in a mocking way. "Korn fans want to be hardcore like MTV" - obviously he meant that MTV are putting out a retrograde view of hardcore and they're falling for it. Maybe he should have put !!!!!11111one!! at the end to clairfy that.

4) I've seen MTV play Right Now many times - both versions.

[QUOTE=Kriz864]Korn = heavy, aggressive, emotional
Opeth = heavy, aggressive, emotional

heavy+aggressive+emotional = metal

And there you have it.[/QUOTE]

Nightwish. Not agressive at all, and on most songs not heavy. Still metal.

Anthrax. Never heard a single drop of emotion from them (I have 2 albums). Still metal.

Tricky. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Public Enemy. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Just but 4 reasons why your theory is flawed.

I appreciate that you like both Korn and Opeth, but I can't help but think that the fact that you like them is clouding your judgement. It can be tempting to view 'metal' as this holy grail, a mighty seal of approval upon a band. It's not - it's a way of describing a band. Same with people viewing nu-metal as a way of slagging a band off. It's not - Deftones and Dredg being two prime examples of good, sometimes great nu-metal bands.

Korn are nu-metal. That doesn't prevent them from being good.

I know I'm judging you and I shoudn't, but that's the impression I got.

If you're looking for a reason why Korn are not metal, then let me offer this - for me, the key ingredient in metal is escapism. With all metal, the goal is to help the listener escape their mundane lives and go somewhere else. Even if it's a subconscious thing with the band making the music, it's still there. It's the very spirit of metal. Be it fantasy-based lyrics to take you to a different world, unbridled agression to make you thrash the pain away, outrageously complex guitar lines to make you dream of being able to play them, or just embracing the rock'n'roll lifestyle to make the listener think of how great it would be to be in a band and have millions of fans.

Korn, on the other hand, are not escapist in the least bit. They are incredibly grounded in reality - nobody wants to escape their own life and live in a world where you get raped by neighbours, bullied for liking Duran Duran, and never get laid, do they?!? The purpose Korn serve is to let the listener wallow in their pain, and appreciate a kind of beauty in suffering, and indulge thier fascinations in watching someone break down. I'm not saying Korn are particularly good at this, but that's what nu-metal does. That's not a bad thing - grunge does it too, and grunge is nowhere near as scorned. The only escapism in nu-metal is when a band sings about beating up and surpressing those who opress you - which will not only conjue up images from your own life, but will remind you you're being oppressed in the first place, so it's not really escapist.

Whoever said "Thou shalt not classify Tool," is **** right. Can't classify it. Oh...Just because little girls like Korn doesn't deprive them of the respect they deserve. And whoever that person was that said they would cry while listening to In Flames...Rather sad. I guess everyone is losing their touch with what is good music nowadays, eh?

Iai, I never thought about that before but now I think about it you're right. However, I don't think all escapist music is metal that's just one of the defining characteristics of metal.

Lets see how that guy responds to your post then. :p

[QUOTE=evilmenhavenosongs]Lets see how that guy responds to your post then. :p[/QUOTE]

[i]If[/i] he responds. Iai made a **** good argument. Even if I wanted to, I'm not sure I could argue against that.

Really, the only people you can't win against are fools, and I'd like to be optimistic and believe this guy isn't one.

[QUOTE=evilmenhavenosongs]Iai, I never thought about that before but now I think about it you're right. However, I don't think all escapist music is metal that's just one of the defining characteristics of metal.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Should have mentioned that.

[QUOTE=Steerpike][i]If[/i] he responds. Iai made a **** good argument. Even if I wanted to, I'm not sure I could argue against that.

Really, the only people you can't win against are fools, and I'd like to be optimistic and believe this guy isn't one.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. :) I don't think he's a fool either. It's just easy to get caught up in thinking 'metal' is necessarily good, and 'nu-metal' is necessarily bad, when that's not true. Tons of people do it and they're not all fools.

[QUOTE=Steerpike][i]If[/i] he responds. Iai made a **** good argument. Even if I wanted to, I'm not sure I could argue against that.

Really, the only people you can't win against are fools, and I'd like to be optimistic and believe this guy isn't one.[/QUOTE]


Steerpike was the best character in that book, he even had a pet monkey :thumb:

Sometimes I like to argue against fools but ultimately it just gets you frustrated. People need to be more open minded and actually listen to each other. Opinions are all well and good but somethings are fact and you can't argue against them.


EDIT: Also, no one has answered my question yet; is darkwave and coldwave etc. to go in the R&M forum or the other forum?

[QUOTE=Iai]1) I know tons of 12-year-old girls who like Korn. They're on the same level as Sum 41 and Blink 182 here. Everyone either likes all three or hates all three. I don't know how old you are, but times have most likely changed considerably since you were in 6th grade. Mainstream music moves with incredible alacrity.

2) He didn't say pretty, he said pretty crap. Massive difference.

3) He used hardcore in a mocking way. "Korn fans want to be hardcore like MTV" - obviously he meant that MTV are putting out a retrograde view of hardcore and they're falling for it. Maybe he should have put !!!!!11111one!! at the end to clairfy that.

4) I've seen MTV play Right Now many times - both versions.[/QUOTE]

he called it "that pretty crap" and right now got banned, it used to play on mtv but some gay group was talking about how that shouldnt be on tv, and they got it banned.

plus if u say korn is "mtv hardcore" and "on the level of sum 41" you are full of ****, korn was popular with mtv in 1998 and 1999 that was 5 years ago. so shut the hell up.

anyway im tired of arguing. so if you want keep saying **** that doesnt make sense.

Iai's post definately made a lot of sense to me.

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]he called it "that pretty crap" and right now got banned, it used to play on mtv but some gay group was talking about how that shouldnt be on tv, and they got it banned.

plus if u say korn is "mtv hardcore" and "on the level of sum 41" you are full of ****, korn was popular with mtv in 1998 and 1999 that was 5 years ago. so shut the hell up.[/QUOTE]

I can't be bothered to check the original post, but if he called it 'that pretty crap', it was an obvious spelling error everybody should have been able to see through.

Right Now still gets played here, as do at least 4 other Korn videos (Blind, Freak On A Leash, ADIDAS, Here To Stay). Note that I say HERE - I don't live in America, and am not subject to the blanket censorship you are.

I justified why I said Korn were on the level of Sum 41, and it wasn't a comment on their music at all. All you've done is take it out of context and tried to use it against me. I reckon there's probably 3 people, maximum, on these boards who won't see through that.

Edit #2 - Spoke too soon. Sorry.

Edit: To evilmenhavenosongs - if you want to make a thread, I'd put it in both. There's no rules against that, and that way you'll reach more people. People in both forums will say it shouldn't be there, but what can you do?

[QUOTE=Iai]Nightwish. Not agressive at all, and on most songs not heavy. Still metal.

Anthrax. Never heard a single drop of emotion from them (I have 2 albums). Still metal.

Tricky. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Public Enemy. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Just but 4 reasons why your theory is flawed.

I appreciate that you like both Korn and Opeth, but I can't help but think that the fact that you like them is clouding your judgement. It can be tempting to view 'metal' as this holy grail, a mighty seal of approval upon a band. It's not - it's a way of describing a band. Same with people viewing nu-metal as a way of slagging a band off. It's not - Deftones and Dredg being two prime examples of good, sometimes great nu-metal bands.

Korn are nu-metal. That doesn't prevent them from being good.

I know I'm judging you and I shoudn't, but that's the impression I got.

If you're looking for a reason why Korn are not metal, then let me offer this - for me, the key ingredient in metal is escapism. With all metal, the goal is to help the listener escape their mundane lives and go somewhere else. Even if it's a subconscious thing with the band making the music, it's still there. It's the very spirit of metal. Be it fantasy-based lyrics to take you to a different world, unbridled agression to make you thrash the pain away, outrageously complex guitar lines to make you dream of being able to play them, or just embracing the rock'n'roll lifestyle to make the listener think of how great it would be to be in a band and have millions of fans.

Korn, on the other hand, are not escapist in the least bit. They are incredibly grounded in reality - nobody wants to escape their own life and live in a world where you get raped by neighbours, bullied for liking Duran Duran, and never get laid, do they?!? The purpose Korn serve is to let the listener wallow in their pain, and appreciate a kind of beauty in suffering, and indulge thier fascinations in watching someone break down. I'm not saying Korn are particularly good at this, but that's what nu-metal does. That's not a bad thing - grunge does it too, and grunge is nowhere near as scorned. The only escapism in nu-metal is when a band sings about beating up and surpressing those who opress you - which will not only conjue up images from your own life, but will remind you you're being oppressed in the first place, so it's not really escapist.[/QUOTE]

**** thats so true... couldn't put it better myself

[QUOTE=evilmenhavenosongs]Steerpike was the best character in that book, he even had a pet monkey :thumb:[/QUOTE]

He's my rolemodel. :evil:

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]he called it "that pretty crap"[/quote]

No, he called it "pretty crap," as in "really sucks." Read the post again.

[quote]and right now got banned, it used to play on mtv but some gay group was talking about how that shouldnt be on tv, and they got it banned.[/quote]

I was not aware that homosexuals had an innate hatred to heavy metal videos.

If you use "gay" as a negative one more time, I will track you down and smack the living crap out of you. I am sick to death of hearing that, and I will [i]not[/i] put up with it.

[quote]plus if u say korn is "mtv hardcore" and "on the level of sum 41" you are full of ****, korn was popular with mtv in 1998 and 1999 that was 5 years ago. so shut the hell up.[/QUOTE]

If you have to use profanity and be rude, then you cannot defend your argument. If you could defend yourself, you wouldn't have to say things like "shut the hell up."

Try it.

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]anyway im tired of arguing. so if you want keep saying **** that doesnt make sense.[/QUOTE]

Okay, now you're just being a baby.

[QUOTE=Iai]Nightwish. Not agressive at all, and on most songs not heavy. Still metal.

Anthrax. Never heard a single drop of emotion from them (I have 2 albums). Still metal.

Tricky. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Public Enemy. Heavy, agressive, emotional. Not metal.

Just but 4 reasons why your theory is flawed.

I appreciate that you like both Korn and Opeth, but I can't help but think that the fact that you like them is clouding your judgement. It can be tempting to view 'metal' as this holy grail, a mighty seal of approval upon a band. It's not - it's a way of describing a band. Same with people viewing nu-metal as a way of slagging a band off. It's not - Deftones and Dredg being two prime examples of good, sometimes great nu-metal bands.

Korn are nu-metal. That doesn't prevent them from being good.

I know I'm judging you and I shoudn't, but that's the impression I got.

If you're looking for a reason why Korn are not metal, then let me offer this - for me, the key ingredient in metal is escapism. With all metal, the goal is to help the listener escape their mundane lives and go somewhere else. Even if it's a subconscious thing with the band making the music, it's still there. It's the very spirit of metal. Be it fantasy-based lyrics to take you to a different world, unbridled agression to make you thrash the pain away, outrageously complex guitar lines to make you dream of being able to play them, or just embracing the rock'n'roll lifestyle to make the listener think of how great it would be to be in a band and have millions of fans.

Korn, on the other hand, are not escapist in the least bit. They are incredibly grounded in reality - nobody wants to escape their own life and live in a world where you get raped by neighbours, bullied for liking Duran Duran, and never get laid, do they?!? The purpose Korn serve is to let the listener wallow in their pain, and appreciate a kind of beauty in suffering, and indulge thier fascinations in watching someone break down. I'm not saying Korn are particularly good at this, but that's what nu-metal does. That's not a bad thing - grunge does it too, and grunge is nowhere near as scorned. The only escapism in nu-metal is when a band sings about beating up and surpressing those who opress you - which will not only conjue up images from your own life, but will remind you you're being oppressed in the first place, so it's not really escapist.[/QUOTE]

See, I disagree. Korn/modern metal and more traditional sounding metal are both types of escapism. Korn's music is more like "you have suffered and I have suffered, and we're together in this". It's different from traditional metal, but it still lets you escape the world if, say, you have a bad day or something. And I don't consider metal a "holy grail".....Dave Matthews Band, Lynyrd Skynyrd, and 3 Doors Down are definately three of my all time favorites, but I don't consider any of those bands to be metal - not by a long shot, because they're not all that heavy or aggressive.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]He's my rolemodel. :evil:
[/QUOTE]

Do you hope to burn a lot of ugly dwarves in your lifetime?

And am I right in saying that that guy just agreed to the post in which Iai said that Korn aren't metal?

[QUOTE=Kriz864]See, I disagree. Korn/modern metal and more traditional sounding metal are both types of escapism. Korn's music is more like "you have suffered and I have suffered, and we're together in this". It's different from traditional metal, but it still lets you escape the world if, say, you have a bad day or something.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Korn simply says there is suffering in the world. This is true. But compare it to say... Judas Priest or Rhapsody. Entirely different approaches.

Rhapsody use their albums to tell a fairy tale in which there is good and evil, joy and suffering. But in the end, good wins. That's the escapism. We see a fantasy land, and we get to dream that good always prevails. It's not necessarily true, but it's good for the soul to hear it.

Judas Priest take an attitude that "Life's a bitch, but she's [i]my[/i] bitch." This has actually become my personal philosophy. Judas Priest offer up the rallying calls of struggling and fighting against the pain of the world. They don't simply tell you it's there. And they're not trying to say "we can be miserable together." They're saying, "We're not afraid to die, but more so, we're not afraid to live. We will fight with you."

[QUOTE=evilmenhavenosongs]Do you hope to burn a lot of ugly dwarves in your lifetime?

And am I right in saying that that guy just agreed to the post in which Iai said that Korn aren't metal?[/QUOTE]

No, but I do hope to manipulate people into doing my will.

And, I'm not sure. I'm a little confused there.

ive been trying to say all along that korn isnt any form of metal lol.

theyre just a rock band that has hard music = hard rock.

dont flame this please.

"Nightwish. Not agressive at all, and on most songs not heavy. Still metal."

i think it was posted earlier, metal isnt an attitude, it's a sound and attitude.

the reason i say korn isnt nu-metal is because they dont rap, and they dont have the generic nu-metal set up, im not saying i hate nu-metal (i am a very big fan of linkin park and taproot) and i like korn so i dont want them called nu-metal, im trying to say people lump them with nu-metal like they lump pod mudvayne and soad. they just throw them in with that cause its the most similar genre of metal, but these bands are just hard rock music.

I could have sworn that you said they were metal. If they are nu-metal, which they are, then there's no shame in that at all. It's a legitimate genre and which people bash slightly more than other genres. But that adds to the put upon my parents hate me and so does everyone else image so it's all good.


PS Steerpike, you need a monkey.

[QUOTE=evilmenhavenosongs]I could have sworn that you said they were metal. If they are nu-metal, which they are, then there's no shame in that at all. It's a legitimate genre and which people bash slightly more than other genres. But that adds to the put upon my parents hate me and so does everyone else image so it's all good.


PS Steerpike, you need a monkey.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Nu-metal is simply a movement/genre of music. It gets a lot of flack from professional musicians because they're irritated over the fact that they spend years honing their talent to produce their own unique sound, and nu-metal bands which don't require very much technical skill make it huge by coasting on an image and a trend.

It's similar to how Samuel L. Jackson once said he hated Snoop Dogg (or however the hell he spells his name) because where as Jackson spent years of his life dedicated to learning to be an actor by studying human behavior, the world around him, and how to stretch his ability to express emotion; Snoop Dogg makes these piss poor movies because he decided he wanted more money, and people still buy them and take him seriously.

Wouldn't you feel cheated, too? But that's only one part of the reason nu-metal is such a controversial topic in the music world.

And, I'd like to get a monkey, but with all the red tape involved, I'm considering just getting a greyhound, a llama, and possibly a ferret or python.

[QUOTE][B]Steerpike: [/B] Exactly. Nu-metal is simply a movement/genre of music. It gets a lot of flack from professional musicians because they're irritated over the fact that they spend years honing their talent to produce their own unique sound, and nu-metal bands which don't require very much technical skill make it huge by coasting on an image and a trend.[/QUOTE]

It's like the Nirvana effect, they can play music, and they can write good songs, but they know that if they act trendy and play something that sounds cool but is easy to play, they'll get big fast. It's just lazy people trying to appeal to people who like cool sounding guitar (regardless how crappy it is)<------me, and people who like rap.

Llamas aren't sinister enough, how can you be sinister with a llama? But a greyhound would do; they're lazy too so you wouldn't have much work to do.

To a certain extent I think musicians are right to look down on nu-metal talentwise as it generally is less talented than other genres. However, it is a valid expression of the soul when it is done properly as is every other genre; there are complexities in areas of it that other genres don't have and vice versa. Bands that don't do things well occur in all genres and people don't look down on those genres for it unless they're close-minded, in the end it all comes down to personal choice and in the end that's how the world works even though I would prefer it if everyone agreed with me all the time. I would be a great dictator.

speaking of nu/rap-metal whatever u wanna call it (i prefer the term rap-metal cause that's what it is: rap first metal second), anyone hear that new Good-Charlotte song, they get worse every day, it has a rap part! theyre awful

[QUOTE=kornedbeef]speaking of nu/rap-metal whatever u wanna call it (i prefer the term rap-metal cause that's what it is: rap first metal second), anyone hear that new Good-Charlotte song, they get worse every day, it has a rap part! theyre awful[/QUOTE]

Good Charlotte is pop-punk. But no need to get into that :p