[QUOTE=The Tway]yeah it actually is[/QUOTE]

So I guess taking away TV privileges for a week is theft.

[QUOTE=Mr. Ron]it seems to me that the ones opposed to spanking kids ar ethe ones that were [I]beaten,[/I] not spanked. They are two different things.[/QUOTE]

They are both degrading, and one is painful. Look, parents don't spank to educate, parents spank because they are angry.

[QUOTE=coheneran]I know loads of children (some of them toddlers) who wouldn't hurt a fly, let alone tease another child or whine for candy, and I know most of their parents well. Pacifist parents whose voices I've only heard raised at demonstrations. You're wrong.[/QUOTE]
I am not wrong. Some children do not need spanking, fair enough. You get odd god's gift sometimes. But some kids need a bit more. It all depends on the child. [B]As long as it is consistent[/B].

[QUOTE=The Tway]yeah it actually is[/QUOTE]
So you're putting light spanking and a crowbar to the face in the same category?

[QUOTE=coheneran]They are both degrading, and one is painful. Look, parents don't spank to educate, parents spank because they are angry.[/QUOTE]

Parents beat because they're angry, parents spank to teach kids a lesson.

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]Not all kids are perfect, simple as that.[/QUOTE]

That could be translated into "not all parents are good."

[QUOTE=coheneran]That could be translated into "not all parents are good."[/QUOTE]

Of course they're not.

[QUOTE=coheneran]They are both degrading, and one is painful. Look, parents don't spank to educate, parents spank because they are angry.[/QUOTE]
For Christ's sake... it's SUPPOSED to be degrading. I've said this before. You're not supposed to be nice to your child when they do something wrong. You want them to feel bad and not do it again. However it is done. But spanking does not harm a child.

[QUOTE=coheneran]They are both degrading, and one is painful. Look, parents don't spank to educate, [B]parents spank because they are angry.[/B][/QUOTE]
Not really. When my mother gave me a spank on the butt she told me she was going to do it and she wasn't mad.

[QUOTE=Mr. Ron]Not really. When my mother a spank on the butt she told me she was going to do it and she wasn't mad.[/QUOTE]
Same here. It was just 'Emily hold your hand out' *cringe* *smack* 'Now go to your room'.

My point is that spanking is SOMETIMES an option. Not that it always is!

[QUOTE]How? The purpose of a parent is to bring up their child and that they turn out alright. Bad parenting is where they don't. Please- feel free to expand on your already detailed argument.[/QUOTE]

Parents, while they certainly affect the development and outcome of their children, are not the only factors to do so. There are obviously other external forces. So directly corresponding good parenting and bad parenting with the way the child turns out is not logical in the slightest.

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]My point is that spanking is SOMETIMES an option. Not that it always is![/QUOTE]
Exactly. it should only be used for certain situations.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]Parents, while they certainly affect the development and outcome of their children, are not the only factors to do so. There are obviously other external forces. So directly corresponding good parenting and bad parenting with the way the child turns out is not logical in the slightest.[/QUOTE]

It's still a parent's responsibility to bring a child up right to the best of their ability.

[QUOTE]It's still a parent's responsibility to bring a child up right to the best of their ability.[/QUOTE]

Of course. Which is why it is important for parents to tell kids why what they're doing is wrong. (I was responding to herbert's point about how preants who spank their kids often have good kids)

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]Parents beat because they're angry, parents spank to teach kids a lesson.[/QUOTE]

A parent could just as easily have a talk with their children. When I babysat for family friends, if a child did something wrong, would I spank it or shout at it? Hell no (Unless he was about to stick his tongue in an electric socket, then I would probably shout "No")! I would tell him why that's dangerous, and that it would in all probabilities kill him and at least send him to hospital. In my experience, being honest with a child is better than telling a simple lie and a slap on the wrist.

I'm trying to find some source sites to browse, but the NSPCC website seems to be down.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]Parents, while they certainly affect the development and outcome of their children, are not the only factors to do so. There are obviously other external forces. So directly corresponding good parenting and bad parenting with the way the child turns out is not logical in the slightest.[/QUOTE]
A child who is abused but goes to a school and has lot's of lovely friends will probably not turn out ok.
A child who is let loose to do whatever the hell they want and get away with it but has lot's of lovely friends probably won't turn out ok.
Parents are the most important people in a child's life. A child learns more in it's first 4 years of life than in the rest of it- and the majority of that time will be with their parents. They are the main influence on their childs beliefs and morals so I'm sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.

[QUOTE], and they aren't done with objects.[/QUOTE]

I used to get the dreaded wooden spoon. But that was still spanking, I think

[QUOTE=coheneran]A parent could just as easily have a talk with their children. When I babysat for family friends, if a child did something wrong, would I spank it or shout at it? Hell no (Unless he was about to stick his tongue in an electric socket, then I would probably shout "No")! I would tell him why that's dangerous, and that it would in all probabilities kill him and at least send him to hospital. In my experience, being honest with a child is better than telling a simple lie and a slap on the wrist.

I'm trying to find some source sites to browse, but the NSPCC website seems to be down.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! But it doesn't always work. If a child doesn't respond to other things, a smack is in order. They should also certainly be rewarded for good behavior with praise. That way, they WILL learn to feel bad about doing wrong things and good about doing what's right.

[QUOTE]A child who is abused but goes to a school and has lot's of lovely friends will probably not turn out ok.
A child who is let loose to do whatever the hell they want and get away with it but has lot's of lovely friends probably won't turn out ok.
Parents are the most important people in a child's life. A child learns more in it's first 4 years of life than in the rest of it- and the majority of that time will be with their parents. They are the main influence on their childs beliefs and morals so I'm sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

No my buddy was abused by his drill-sargeant father, ran away when he was 14, and is now doing great. And although I'm sure his personality has been influenced by his childhood, it's really not the only factor.

[QUOTE=coheneran]A parent could just as easily have a talk with their children. When I babysat for family friends, if a child did something wrong, would I spank it or shout at it? Hell no (Unless he was about to stick his tongue in an electric socket, then I would probably shout "No")! I would tell him why that's dangerous, and that it would in all probabilities kill him and at least send him to hospital. In my experience, being honest with a child is better than telling a simple lie and a slap on the wrist.

I'm trying to find some source sites to browse, but the NSPCC website seems to be down.[/QUOTE]
That's totally different. You would never hit someone else's kid anyway. What if you're kid was a total tearaway... throwing stuff everywhere having enormous tantrums and bawling it's eyes out. Do you honestly think 'Darling that's quite dangerous and you might hurt yourself and others around you' is gonna make it stop? A child will not act the same around a babysitter as it will with it's parents.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]No my buddy was abused by his drill-sargeant father, ran away when he was 14, and is now doing great. And although I'm sure his personality has been influenced by his childhood, it's really not the only factor.[/QUOTE]

Oh ok, so then what harm IS caused by being spanked if your buddy turned out ok? Just goes to show that whether or not parents are a huge part is irrelevent.

[QUOTE]Absolutely! But it doesn't always work. If a child doesn't respond to other things, a smack is in order. They should also certainly be rewarded for good behavior with praise. That way, they WILL learn to feel bad about doing wrong things and good about doing what's right.[/QUOTE]

But will they feel bad because they've been deprived of praise, because they got smacked, or because they broke their personal moral code? I think a spanking is probably a lot more influential in the brief time afterwards when you think about what you've done (in theory anyway) so how do those morals really get enforced?

[QUOTE]Oh ok, so then what harm IS caused by being spanked if your buddy turned out ok? Just goes to show that whether or not parents are a huge part is irrelevent.[/QUOTE]

yeah i just screwed myself over there. whoops

[QUOTE=lfantwister]No my buddy was abused by his drill-sargeant father, ran away when he was 14, and is now doing great. And although I'm sure his personality has been influenced by his childhood, it's really not the only factor.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it was the only, I said it was the most important/influential. It also wouldn't suprise me if he had at least some issues about it. No kid who was beaten is not gonna be totally unaffected by what happened.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]But will they feel bad because they've been deprived of praise, because they got smacked, or because they broke their personal moral code? I think a spanking is probably a lot more influential in the brief time afterwards when you think about what you've done (in theory anyway) so how do those morals really get enforced?[/QUOTE]

It's different for every child, really. Sometimes the "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" thing will work wonders. Sometimes not. Spanking teaches children that what they did was wrong. If you say that it only makes them feel bad but doesn't teach (is that what you're saying?) then how will ANY discipline work? Children need to be shaped. It's sad that sometimes it involves spanking, but it will need to be done sometimes, just not as a primary.

[QUOTE=lfantwister]But will they feel bad because they've been deprived of praise, because they got smacked, or because they broke their personal moral code? I think a spanking is probably a lot more influential in the brief time afterwards when you think about what you've done (in theory anyway) so how do those morals really get enforced?[/QUOTE]
Hang on... are you for or against spanking?

Kids on the beat!

Kids on the street!

BEAT KIDS!

[QUOTE=IdioticJester]It's different for every child, really. Sometimes the "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" thing will work wonders. Sometimes not. Spanking teaches children that what they did was wrong. If you say that it only makes them feel bad but doesn't teach (is that what you're saying?) then how will ANY discipline work? Children need to be shaped. It's sad that sometimes it involves spanking, but it will need to be done sometimes, just not as a primary.[/QUOTE]
Basically it all depends on the child. In all honesty I'd rather not hit my child (if I have one) but it may come to it.

I need to go shower. I just believe that sometimes children need a little pain to be disciplined. Never enough to leave a mark.