[QUOTE=Guitrguy]Well that sucks, I;m glad I didnt have to do that.

I <3 being American.
[/QUOTE]Yeah but I'd rather be over in here in England. I'm scared of High Schools after seeing what they're like on TV.

[QUOTE=Happy]Yeah but I'd rather be over in here in England. I'm scared of High Schools after seeing what they're like on TV.[/QUOTE]
hahahaha they're really not bad, you just see what makes headlines. Who really wnats to see a story about a normal high school with no out of the ordinary violence.

True. It's just our schools seem so much more subtle compared to yours when I watch reality TV shows.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]
Most Agnostics I know seem to think they are a million times better by not choosing a side because it makes them so objective. I don't see it as a tenable position because it's impossible to be objective and once you have an opinion, that's where your true beliefs lie. You don't believe in the idea that there might be a god, you believe there probably is or probably isn't, at the least. Humans are, by nature, opinionated.[/QUOTE]

Well, those people seem like they don't know much, then :)

I don't know where this fixation on objectivity is coming from, though. Humans are, as you say, naturally opinionated, but then why is being of the opinion that we can't know one way or the other (etc) any less a tenable position than the others?

[QUOTE=Happy]True. It's just our schools seem so much more subtle compared to yours [B]when I watch reality TV shows[/B].[/QUOTE]
That is where you went wrong my friend. Never trust reality TV especially if its American made.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Most Agnostics I know seem to think they are a million times better by not choosing a side because it makes them so objective. I don't see it as a tenable position because it's impossible to be objective and once you have an opinion, that's where your true beliefs lie. You don't believe in the idea that there might be a god, you believe there probably is or probably isn't, at the least. Humans are, by nature, opinionated.[/QUOTE]
If I believe it can't be proved one way or another, surely that's then an opinion?

[QUOTE=guitrguy]That is where you went wrong my friend. Never trust reality TV especially if its American made.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it was Made actually. I'm a disgrace to everyone by watching that show.

[QUOTE=Bartender]Well, those people seem like they don't know much, then :)

I don't know where this fixation on objectivity is coming from, though. Humans are, as you say, naturally opinionated, but then why is being of the opinion that we can't know one way or the other (etc) any less a tenable position than the others?[/QUOTE]
Exactly how I see it :)

Eh, it's one of my obsessive topics :) If Agnostics chose to simply say that there's no evidence to chose one side as more true than the other, I'd respect that. But I've never encountered it. Every Agnostic I've ever known has said there's not enough evidence to choose one as right, so they have no belief either way. Or rather, they claim to believe that there may or may not be a god, but there's no way to know for sure. I kind of see it as a cop out. "I'm not going to chose one side or the other because I might be wrong." But they already have made a decision because they do have an opinion, and it's not that.

[QUOTE=Happy]Yeah it was Made actually. I'm a disgrace to everyone by watching that show.[/QUOTE]

I've watched that show a few times and I really haven't seen anything in it that makes American high schools so vicious.

i tend to respect the AGNOSTIC approach more so then an atheist (being the believer I am)


I respect it more beacause I interpret that belief system as someone who would be open to believing in the future, as if there were not enough conclusive evidence during the time the decision was made, but they are open minded enough to consider the situation at a later date, and possibly chaning their belief

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]i tend to respect the AGNOSTIC approach more so then an atheist (being the believer I am)

I respect it more beacause I interpret that belief system as someone who would be open to believing in the future, as if there were not enough conclusive evidence during the time the decision was made, but they are open minded enough to consider the situation at a later date, and possibly chaning their belief[/QUOTE]
I don't believe religion is a permanent decision and I don't think by stating which side your views are skewed towards you make yourself less open to change. This is where my biggest problem with Agnostics is...they think that no one else can accept the idea that there's no conclusive proof. Most people accept that regardless of being Theist or Atheist.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]I don't believe religion is a permanent decision and I don't think by stating which side your views are skewed towards you make yourself less open to change. This is where my biggest problem with Agnostics is...they think that no one else can accept the idea that there's no conclusive proof. Most people accept that regardless of being Theist or Atheist.[/QUOTE]



i see agnostics as a decision to not make a decision. I can understand that MORE in my personal experiences then to say HE doesnt exist.


That is not to say atheists do not change their mind, I just agnostics as more open to the idea is all

[QUOTE=Happy]Yeah it was Made actually. I'm a disgrace to everyone by watching that show.[/QUOTE]
:lol: I meant made as in manufacturing.

That damn show is so stupid.:mad:

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]i see agnostics as a decision to not make a decision. I can understand that MORE in my personal experiences then to say HE doesnt exist.

That is not to say atheists do not change their mind, I just agnostics as more open to the idea is all[/QUOTE]
Exactly. That's my issue. You have made a decision, it's impossible not to. You're hiding behind a false shroud of objectivity. Thanks for illustrating my point :)

No, totally bollocks idea. Everyone changes their mind. "Hey, do you want to go to McDonald's?" "No, I was thinking more like Wendy's." "Ok, sounds good." It happens all the time. Having a predisposition to something doesn't make you any less open to change.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Exactly. That's my issue. You have made a decision, it's impossible not to. You're hiding behind a false shroud of objectivity. Thanks for illustrating my point :)

No, totally bollocks idea. Everyone changes their mind. "Hey, do you want to go to McDonald's?" "No, I was thinking more like Wendy's." "Ok, sounds good." It happens all the time. Having a predisposition to something doesn't make you any less open to change.[/QUOTE]


a decision, not to make a decision, is a decision none the less

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]a decision, not to make a decision, is a decision none the less[/QUOTE]
Now you're just splitting hairs.

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]a decision, not to make a decision, is a decision none the less[/QUOTE]
It's impossible to conciously choose not to choose. Objectivity is a fallacy, no human can achieve it, hard as some people try.

[QUOTE=guitrguy]Now you're just splitting hairs.[/QUOTE]


not at all, and ill give an example



I had a discussion with my girl about "safe sex". She doesnt want to use condoms, and she doesnt want to use birth control. She refuses to make a decision, but its a decision none the less.

I mean, shes choosing to do nothing. You could draw parallels with an agnostic. The belief that you can't know for sure is a valid one, even if i dont agree with it. Calling them an atheist wouldnt be accurate in that situation

[QUOTE=metal guitar]Glad to hear it, it's nice to hear some feedback :)
I seem to remember they were Beethoven sonatas, but remind me which numbers the ones I sent you are..

NP:Beethoven-Sonata14 in c#, Op 27-2 'Moonlight' - 3.PrestoAgitato[/QUOTE]

You sent me number 23.

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]not at all, and ill give an example



I had a discussion with my girl about "safe sex". She doesnt want to use condoms, and she doesnt want to use birth control. She refuses to make a decision, but its a decision none the less.

I mean, shes choosing to do nothing. You could draw parallels with an agnostic. The belief that you can't know for sure is a valid one, even if i dont agree with it. Calling them an atheist wouldnt be accurate in that situation[/QUOTE]
Agnostics don't refuse anything, thats the whoel point. When we see something the is proof enough to either side we'll go to that side.
Why should any one do anything that calls for a change in lifestyle with out proof of it being valid.

I'm sure you two are just agreeing with each other now.

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]The belief that you can't know for sure is a valid one,[/QUOTE]

So you think we can know for sure?

that would be like saying an ambiguity COULDN'T exist. In your belief system, thats like saying I can't like Godfather prt 1 equally to Godfather prt2.


I find that a little hard to swallow



edit: From my personal experiences, I can honestly say I know for sure

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]It's impossible to conciously choose not to choose. Objectivity is a fallacy, no human can achieve it, hard as some people try.[/QUOTE]


unless you are a hard-determinist, possibly a deist.(pushing it)

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]not at all, and ill give an example

I had a discussion with my girl about "safe sex". She doesnt want to use condoms, and she doesnt want to use birth control. She refuses to make a decision, but its a decision none the less.

I mean, shes choosing to do nothing. You could draw parallels with an agnostic. The belief that you can't know for sure is a valid one, even if i dont agree with it. Calling them an atheist wouldnt be accurate in that situation[/QUOTE]
The difference is that in that scenario she's choosing to utilize neither, but in the case of Agnosticism, to chose neither side is to choose objectivity which is impossible.

All Agnostics in my mind are Theist or Atheist. Not strong to either side, but nonetheless on a side. I myself am not as strongly Atheist as I used to be because I've experienced things since converting whcih have made me less sure of the views I once held. But at the root I still don't believe in a god. There's always an "at the root" statement.[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]that would be like saying an ambiguity COULDN'T exist. In your belief system, thats like saying I can't like Godfather prt 1 equally to Godfather prt2.

I find that a little hard to swallow
[/QUOTE]
How am I saying ambiguities don't exist? Objectivity isn't ambiguity.
[quote=z-sprout]
unless you are a hard-determinist, possibly a deist.(pushing it)[/quote]
Deism isn't a form of objectivity either :-\ I'm not familiar with Hard-Determinism.

[QUOTE=kurrptsenate]In your belief system, thats like saying I can't like Godfather prt 1 equally to Godfather prt2.[/QUOTE]
Thats actually very wrong. Its more of abstaining from either side and try to see whats really going instead of mindlessly following Atheism or religion.
THe correct stement would be: [I]"I can't like Godfather prt 1 over to Godfather prt2 until I see part 2"[/I]

[QUOTE=z-sprout]unless you are a hard-determinist, possibly a deist.(pushing it)[/QUOTE]

That's not objectivity. Objectivity with no possiblity of subjectivity isn't objectivity.

[QUOTE=guitrguy]Thats actually very wrong. Its more of abstaining from either side and try to see whats really going instead of mindlessly following Atheism or religion.
THe correct stement would be: [I]"I can't like Godfather prt 1 over to Godfather prt2 until I see part 2"[/I][/QUOTE]
I hope you're not implying anyone who is Atheist or Theist is a mindless follower :-\

I don't think you are...but the way that reads...

[QUOTE=Bartender]That's not objectivity. Objectivity with no possiblity of subjectivity isn't objectivity.[/QUOTE]

thats true, hard-determinism is generally bad argument. St. Augustine tried it and came up with some obscene philosophy. "God does not exist in the past of future" and crap like that

[QUOTE]Well, it's all down to perception. I see Atheism simply as the statement of my belief. I don't believe there is a higher being. I'm not trying to be militant about it or fore my belief of it on others, it's just the way I see the world. I know there are a lot of Atheists who are more...emphatic...about their beliefs, but hey, every extremist gives a bad name to their religion. If we judged people based on the most extreme or fundamental of their practitioners, Islamists would all be suicide bombers, Christians would all be Evangelists, and Jews would all be stingy [/QUOTE]

Well, I'd rather not call myself something that I can't base on facts. If you don't believe it exists, why would you care about it, if you think it's not true, but you can't really prove it, it's better to agnostically leave it in the middle.

[QUOTE]I was raised Christian too, and I mean, yeah, Europe has some awe inspiring churches, but tell me how that proves the existence of god? They're man made objects. Than man can create such art doesn't inspire me to believe there's some god who enabled that, it just makes me more aware of the range of human abilities. I mean I'm not saying you're one hundred pecent sure of whether or not you believe in god. But if I ask "do you believe in god?" you're not totally lost, you have a rough idea of yes or no. People who say they aren't sure aren't telling the whole truth.[/QUOTE]

I never said it did. That would be stupid, since I told you I'm an agnostic and I don't want to try to prove that god exists. :\ I'm aware of the fact that it's a building, I was simply pointing out that it has a sense of mysticism and that it moves something, as I was confronted with catholicism in primary school. It wasn't meant to prove anything.

I'm pretty sure there isn't some big guy with a large beard sitting in heaven looking down, but I can't say for sure. I am less sure about the fact that there is a higher power, now that's something I really can't form an opinion about, because I can't verify it. I mean, the things that happen in nature, some of it is pretty amazing, so maybe nature itself is the higher power, you can never say.


[QUOTE]Eh, it's one of my obsessive topics If Agnostics chose to simply say that there's no evidence to chose one side as more true than the other, I'd respect that. But I've never encountered it. Every Agnostic I've ever known has said there's not enough evidence to choose one as right, so they have no belief either way. Or rather, they claim to believe that there may or may not be a god, but there's no way to know for sure. I kind of see it as a cop out. "I'm not going to chose one side or the other because I might be wrong." But they already have made a decision because they do have an opinion, and it's not that.[/QUOTE]

It's just a matter of logic. If I say to you : "I have in my hand a €50 bill" and hold my hands behind my back and ask you if it's true, wouldn't it be silly if you said that you can't really know, but you believe I don't, regardless. I think it would be. You're a silly person. :mad:

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]I hope you're not implying anyone who is Atheist or Theist is a mindless follower :-\

I don't think you are...but the way that reads...[/QUOTE]
No not at all, I was more stating my reason for being agnostic.

[QUOTE]The difference is that in that scenario she's choosing to utilize neither, but in the case of Agnosticism, to chose neither side is to choose objectivity which is impossible.[/QUOTE]

We are choosing. Theists interpret some experiences or whatever as proof for God, Atheists interpret the absence of concrete evidence as proof that he doesn't exist. Agnostics, however, choose to believe that neither argument is strong enough to make up one's mind about an important matter such as the existence of a deity.

We're not just going, [I]*shrug* Guuuuh, I dunno, boss! :\ [/I] or something, we just feel that there are no facts to base theist or atheist beliefs on. And having an opinion based on nothing is silly.

[QUOTE=Superpeer]Well, I'd rather not call myself something that I can't base on facts. If you don't believe it exists, why would you care about it, if you think it's not true, but you can't really prove it, it's better to agnostically leave it in the middle.[/quote]But there are no facts. In science almost all the things we believe are simply theories we've yet to disprove. But we still believe them. That's how I see my religion. I have a stance that I'll hold until it's disproven by whatever evidence I find compelling. I don't say cold fusion is impossible just because it hasn't been done yet. I believe it may happen. But if there arises evidence it is impossible, then I'll believe it's impossible. *shrug* (Probably a bad example because I seem to recall someone claiming cold fusion is impossible but eh)
[quote='Peer]
I never said it did. That would be stupid, since I told you I'm an agnostic and I don't want to try to prove that god exists. :\ I'm aware of the fact that it's a building, I was simply pointing out that it has a sense of mysticism and that it moves something, as I was confronted with catholicism in primary school. It wasn't meant to prove anything.

I'm pretty sure there isn't some big guy with a large beard sitting in heaven looking down, but I can't say for sure. I am less sure about the fact that there is a higher power, now that's something I really can't form an opinion about, because I can't verify it. I mean, the things that happen in nature, some of it is pretty amazing, so maybe nature itself is the higher power, you can never say.
[/quote]
Right, I'm sorry if you didn't catch that I understood that. I mean, yes, there's a sense of grandeur and mysticism, but rather than attribute that to a higher power, I attribute it to the awesomeness of man. :)

I don't see nature as a higher power, per se. But if that's what you were calling your belief in a higher power I'd not be inclined to argue as I know how awesome nature is.
[quote=Jelloface]
It's just a matter of logic. If I say to you : "I have in my hand a €50 bill" and hold my hands behind my back and ask you if it's true, wouldn't it be silly if you said that you can't really know, but you believe I don't, regardless. I think it would be. You're a silly person. :mad:[/QUOTE]
No, I'd say I don't think so, or I think so. There's no reason to state that I can't know for sure, that's obvious.[QUOTE=Superpeer]We are choosing. Theists interpret some experiences or whatever as proof for God, Atheists interpret the absence of concrete evidence as proof that he doesn't exist. Agnostics, however, choose to believe that neither argument is strong enough to make up one's mind about an important matter such as the existence of a deity.

We're not just going, [I]*shrug* Guuuuh, I dunno, boss! :\ [/I] or something, we just feel that there are no facts to base theist or atheist beliefs on. And having an opinion based on nothing is silly.[/QUOTE]
It may be silly, but nonetheless you do have one. Don't fall into the fallacy of assuming you're immune to having an opinion just because it has no basis. :)

[QUOTE]But there are no facts. In science almost all the things we believe are simply theories we've yet to disprove. But we still believe them. That's how I see my religion. I have a stance that I'll hold until it's disproven by whatever evidence I find compelling. I don't say cold fusion is impossible just because it hasn't been done yet. I believe it may happen. But if there arises evidence it is impossible, then I'll believe it's impossible. *shrug* (Probably a bad example because I seem to recall someone claiming cold fusion is impossible but eh)[/QUOTE]

Exactly, there are no facts. That's what I said. Yeah, I guess you're right about that, but still, I wouldn't put religion and a scientific theory on the same level. For some people, religion = science, God explains it all. A lot of theories are pretty obvious though. Gravity exists, okay, you can't really prove it's there, but the fact that we don't fly and we do in space should lead most of us to believe the theory.

The existence of God is different however, there is as good as nothing that could lead you anywhere. I think the same about scientific theories that are as vague, unless they make a lot of sense. Atheism and Theism is just guessing, though.


[QUOTE]Right, I'm sorry if you didn't catch that I understood that. I mean, yes, there's a sense of grandeur and mysticism, but rather than attribute that to a higher power, I attribute it to the awesomeness of man.

I don't see nature as a higher power, per se. But if that's what you were calling your belief in a higher power I'd not be inclined to argue as I know how awesome nature is.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't think it is either, just saying that there is a thing called mysticism, etc. That doesn't really matter so much.

I didn't say nature IS a higher power, I'm just saying that the amazing things that happen and are not influenced by man shows that it could be possible, not saying it is, but there's that possibility again.

[QUOTE]No, I'd say I don't think so, or I think so. There's no reason to state that I can't know for sure, that's obvious.[/QUOTE]

But you would take a complete leap in the dark. Why not stick with the obvious? It's the obvious thing to do. And don't give me that rebel s[COLOR="White"]h[/COLOR]it either. Why just pluck an opinion out of the sky, just for the sake of having a coloured opinion. You can't seem to realise that saying that you can't really know is an opinion too.

You talkin' 'bout Religion?

If so, I don't believe in god, cos I've never seen him.

i bet u believe in santa when you were little

Yes, but then you were that young, you believed anything.

I take alot of influence from my beliefs in the Bible, however I do read other holy books and integrate the ideas I think are good and resonable into what I believe. I guess I just hate science because it doesn't answer any of the questions I have in my mind and it also suggests the impossibility of spirituality, which might explain why evolution turns me off.

Meh. In my Opinion, If there was no religion, there would be at least half the amount of wars.

[QUOTE=Doctor Night]Meh. In my Opinion, If there was no religion, there would be at least half the amount of wars.[/QUOTE]
The wars would be about other issues. There's always an underlying motive behind a religious war and religions that haven't been mutilated by greed and power don't promote war.

I think there would also be half as much reason to live in my opinion. If there is only the mundane, I wouldn't want to live. I can feel forces, that I can't see, deep down and that's why I live.

[QUOTE=Moses]The wars would be about other issues.

[B]I think there would also be half as much reason to live in my opinion[/B]. If there is only the mundane, I wouldn't want to live. I can feel forces, that I can't see, deep down and that's why I live.[/QUOTE]
Stuff like that really turns me off to religion. There is so much to live for with out knowing for sure if there is a higher power. Music, Art, human emotions, socialization etc.