[QUOTE=Deth]I hate you.[/QUOTE]
And I you.

I always like it when people in this thread think we're serious about this.

I am of course.

[QUOTE=Deth]I always like it when people in this thread think we're serious about this.

I am of course.[/QUOTE]
As do I.

As am I.

[QUOTE=Det_Nosnip]I strongly agree. They're alot tighter, and their sense of groove and feel is impeccable. This is best experienced live, but alot of the tracks on the Dam nation record really showcase that ability. "To Rid the Disease" would be an excellent example of how to groove [i]hard[/i]...if you listen, both Martins are really far behind the beat (guitars in front), yet they're tighter than things that cannot be spoken of on a forum that bleeps naughty words. ;)



Although Johan's style was alot flashier and more technical, Mendez's approach is more advanced in some ways. Mendez's approach is more jazz orientated, and he interacts and responds with the other musicians while providing a solid rhythmic foundation and really bringing out the feel of the song. He's clearly got chops (as I recall, they pretty much play the Morningrise stuff as is), but he's more precise and thoughtful in how he uses them. Although I can see why Johan would be more interesting from a bassist's perspective, Mendez is more interesting, in my opinion, from a musician's standpoint.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with you, I like Anders and Johan because of how talented they are... and that's it really, they're just raw talent, the Martins on the other hand are definately refined.

[QUOTE=Det_Nosnip]

Although Johan's style was alot flashier and more technical, Mendez's approach is more advanced in some ways. Mendez's approach is more jazz orientated, and he interacts and responds with the other musicians while providing a solid rhythmic foundation and really bringing out the feel of the song.[/QUOTE]


I see your point. But I have a hard time seeing Mendez writing something intricate like [I]To Bid You Farewell[/I] for example, or even playing something like it. I like how Johan plays all over the fretboard on this song. Not only that, he puts in 1 note time changes crucial to the intro mood. The bass is lively, well played and rare. I think it makes the song. If Johan didn't display that talent on this song, it wouldn't have been as good.




N.P. To Bid You Farewell ~ [B]O[/B]peth

I didn't like Johann's bass playing. He was far too flashy, and although some of his lines sound good (like on TBYF), some should have been toned down (like the opening of BRI). I can see why Mikael would get rid of him.

[QUOTE=toaster135]I didn't like Johann's bass playing. He was far too flashy, and although some of his lines sound good (like on TBYF), some should have been toned down (like the opening of BRI). I can see why Mikael would get rid of him.[/QUOTE]


You're crazy! I loved the variation within his bass effort on Black Rose Immortal, again, the song wouldn't have sounded as good without his bass playing. I love his technique, he's talented.

[QUOTE=Flynn]You're crazy! I loved the variation within his bass effort on Black Rose Immortal, again, the song wouldn't have sounded as good without his bass playing. I love his technique, he's talented.[/QUOTE]

i know exactly what you mean

I can see how Johan's playing wouldn't have fit so well with later Opeth stuff, but it works SO perfectly well on Morningrise. He has a really cool tone, too, I like it a lot. I've been trying to emulate it lately, with moderate success.

Plus TBYF is my favorite Opeth bass performance ever.

Oh and check this out, I was just in the campus coffee shop and I saw some Morning Rise tea. I almost got some, but I don't like tea. I mentioned it to the guy behind the counter, and wouldn't you know, he had heard of Opeth. That makes 3 people at my college that have.

It may be because I don't know much about it, but I have a hard time picking up a lot of Opeth's bass lines. They just don't stick out to me.

Yes, they're both very good bassists. To the person above, I believe Johan has a fretless bass and that's where his tone would come from. Fretless basses often give nice warm jazz bass tones.

It's hard to say really. Johan is a great bassist, but I prefer Mendez. Mendez's basswork actually really *adds* to the music. Not that Johan's doesn't, but I think Mendez's basswork is on a different level, even if Johan is more technical. But I'm not going to pretend I don't Mendez to show off a bit - even if it's just a bass solo at a concert etc.

[QUOTE=Jude]I can see how Johan's playing wouldn't have fit so well with later Opeth stuff, but it works SO perfectly well on Morningrise. He has a really cool tone, too, I like it a lot. I've been trying to emulate it lately, with moderate success. Plus TBYF is my favorite Opeth bass performance ever.[/QUOTE]


You then share pretty much the same feeling as me on that album. I can't get over the fact that you can actuall hear the bass throughout the album, within this genre. Usually the bass is hidden, never to be heard, not on Morningrise...it's f-ing explosive. I say this from the heart, there has never been an album as heavy as Morningrise with talent in Bass Guitars that I've ever heard in my life.

[QUOTE]Oh and check this out, I was just in the campus coffee shop and I saw some Morning Rise tea. I almost got some, but I don't like tea. I mentioned it to the guy behind the counter, and wouldn't you know, he had heard of Opeth. That makes 3 people at my college that have.[/QUOTE]


You should of bought some anyways, just to have it. :)

I'm assuming Johan did bass for Opeth's earlier albums (horrible with names).

If so, I think Mendez is better. It may be the production, but I really disliked Johan. He was too high in the mix, and his basslines often seemed out of place at times.

Mendez plays some seriously wicked lines while still keeping in check.

The way the bass sounds and the overly ambitious lines it plays, combined with the cheesey electric guitar lines is the reason why I don't like Morningrise very much. Because the acoustic guitar sections are flat out amazing, I just wish the arrangments of electric sections were more refined.

[QUOTE=Kage]The way the bass sounds and the overly ambitious lines it plays, combined with the cheesey electric guitar lines is the reason why I don't like Morningrise very much. Because the acoustic guitar sections are flat out amazing, I just wish the arrangments of electric sections were more refined.[/QUOTE]


I love Morningrise for all the reasons you don't, :lol: I love the way it was recorded and written in all areas. It's arguably one of the best Progressive Metal albums ever recorded.

[QUOTE=Kage]The way the bass sounds and the overly ambitious lines it plays, combined with the cheesey electric guitar lines is the reason why I don't like Morningrise very much. Because the acoustic guitar sections are flat out amazing, I just wish the arrangments of electric sections were more refined.[/QUOTE]
I dont find the electric parts cheesy.

But their use of dissonant chords on the acoustics is genious.

I think the electric parts can get cheesy at parts...

My main beef with Morningrise is there's no repetition of riffs during songs, besides the time they're played. They're played in their cycle, and then are forgotten for the rest of the song.

[QUOTE=Shattered_Future]I think the electric parts can get cheesy at parts...

My main beef with Morningrise is there's no repetition of riffs during songs, besides the time they're played. They're played in their cycle, and then are forgotten for the rest of the song.[/QUOTE]
you definately hear repetition on their new mateial.

[QUOTE=Shattered_Future]I think the electric parts can get cheesy at parts...

My main beef with Morningrise is there's no repetition of riffs during songs, besides the time they're played. They're played in their cycle, and then are forgotten for the rest of the song.[/QUOTE]


That's the fascinating thing about that album!!, each song is a story musically. Once a riff is played, it's never played again, and never should be. That's the coolest thing about Morningrise.




[I]
''Repetition is hell'' - Stephen King.[/I]

[QUOTE=Flynn]That's the fascinating thing about that album!!, each song is a story musically. Once a riff is played, it's never played again, and never should be. That's the coolest thing about Morningrise.




[I]
''Repetition is hell'' - Stephen King.[/I][/QUOTE]
Interesting quote. What book is that from?

[QUOTE=Kage]Interesting quote. What book is that from?[/QUOTE]


It's from a book, it's from one of his interviews a while back.

[QUOTE=Flynn]That's the fascinating thing about that album!!, each song is a story musically. Once a riff is played, it's never played again, and never should be. That's the coolest thing about Morningrise.




[I]
''Repetition is hell'' - Stephen King.[/I][/QUOTE]

Interesting point made. Thats one of the reasons i love morningrise. Even though repitition is not necessarily a bad thing or that it gets boring, Morningrise is one of the most epic albums ever made.
Definitely one of a kind.
amirite or not?:rolleyes:

I should probably look into DLing that album, I haven't heard it yet and it sounds pretty interesting.

[QUOTE=A-S-S-H-A-T]I should probably look into DLing that album, I haven't heard it yet and it sounds pretty interesting.[/QUOTE]
Morningrise? Download Black Rose Immortal.

Black Rose Immortal probably has all of the elements of the whole album. So if u like black rose immortal, i suggest you go buy the album man.
Or if you like soft songs, you can download To Bid You Farewell.
Or rehearsed songs you can download Eternal Soul Torture:p

[QUOTE=Shattered_Future]I think the electric parts can get cheesy at parts...

My main beef with Morningrise is there's no repetition of riffs during songs, besides the time they're played. They're played in their cycle, and then are forgotten for the rest of the song.[/QUOTE]

My biggest problem is that the "cycle" usually lasts for two whole minutes at a time. :p

EDIT: Lamentations has enough clear bass, and shows Mendez recording along to Deliverance and stuff, and it's VERY clear how tight he is. He's got a lot of very good chops and doesn't get in the way of anybody. His lines sound very beefy and are often audible anyway, if not to the extent that Johan's are. Plus, later Opeth has a lot of time changes, whereas early Opeth just had tempo changes (which is the mark of amateurity rather than true complexity: my early "epics" had a lot of unconscious tempo changes as well). Mendez handles them deftly and well. Later Opeth is MUCH more technical and harder to execute than the stuff on Morningrise, and the fact that Mendez can keep up with Mikael's totally whacked-out sense of harmony is a testament to his skill. Just check out the line on "The Drapery Falls." Come on now.

This is NOT TO SAY that Morningrise is terrible, it's got the most beautiful acoustic arrangements I've heard. In fact, I believe Johan was responsible for coming up with a lot of those arrangements (which may have been a factor in getting rid of him, as Mikael tired of Morningrise's style fast). It's just that Morningrise is clearly the work of a talented band who have not totally gelled. I did a complete transcription of "Black Rose Immortal," and the number of tempo changes, fade-outs between sections, and jarring transitions are almost totally illogical, as are the vast number of repeats certain longer sections get before the next section comes in. Sure, they were obviously trying for long songs and got them, but you can't deny that they were working it out in a rather amateur and uneasy way. Compositionally, none of the songs on Morningrise are as tight as those on Still Life and any of the albums following it.

[QUOTE=Cain]My biggest problem is that the "cycle" usually lasts for two whole minutes at a time. :p[/QUOTE]
Its works when your songs are twenty minutes long

[QUOTE=guitrguy]Its works when your songs are twenty minutes long[/QUOTE]

When the twenty minute song is made up of two-minute cycles it means that somebody forgot to hire an editor, not that "it works." :p

[QUOTE=Cain]When the twenty minute song is made up of two-minute cycles it means that somebody forgot to hire an editor, not that "it works." :p[/QUOTE]
But what if they did? I wouldn't want to here the uncut version.

[QUOTE=guitrguy]But what if they did? I wouldn't want to here the uncut version.[/QUOTE]

I guess I wouldn't either, to be honest.

I'm just sick of people acting like Morningrise is some fully-formed masterpiece never to be surpassed by anybody anywhere. It's awesome within its own paradigm, but come on. It's so amateur. You've got to look at Morningrise in more contexts than its individual quality. Flynn sees Morningrise in terms of a bare-bones musical standpoint, and has a great love for it that borders on fanboyism. That's great and valid, because much of the musical content of Morningrise is excellent and even downright beautiful, but as a composer of similar music who has grown from his beginning attempts to emulate his influences, and who appreciates growth in skill of the same sort in other groups, I see Morningrise in terms of Opeth's later output, and I see endless signs of compositional adolescence. And that's valid too.