[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Yes.
[/QUOTE]

No, that's stupid. I hate Jimmy Page's music with a passion, but I'm still not stupid enough to say that one of Emery's guitarists (who I think is creative and writes good music) is a better musician.

[QUOTE]Awesome, so you can ignore my point.
[/QUOTE]

This made me laugh. Joel is still the coolest person ever.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]sup Cob

Everyone join our "I hate everything club" (even this club)[/QUOTE]

No no no, the name of it is The 'I Hate This Club All Of The Time' Club.

Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.

[QUOTE=cobert]
Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon[/QUOTE]

My one friend suggested heroin.

[QUOTE=cobert]No no no, the name of it is The 'I Hate This Club All Of The Time' Club.

Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.[/QUOTE]
I used to think like that. I actually still do. But I get around it by prancing around like a fairy and skipping down the street. It makes me feel better.

ps: Our real club name rules.

[QUOTE=cobert]My one friend suggested heroin.[/QUOTE]

He is not your friend.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon[/QUOTE]

I think that was a Calvin and Hobbes strip, where Calvin decided the secret to being happy with yourself was to lower your standards to the point where they're already met.

Calvin and Hobbes rule! :)

[QUOTE=PDWAB]Awesome, so you can ignore my point.

Formal training touches on ALL aspects of playing music, including musicality, personal interpretations of the music- it's about helping you be a [i]musician,[/i] not a note-playing automaton. Most people have a limited perspective on it because they don't pursue it past the technique stage, which is a necessary part to ensure you have the tools you need to really explore the more musical side of things.[/QUOTE]
Joel honey I love you but you didn't make any point at all, you called me ignorant and said you've met a lot of amazing musicians. There was no point or even really argument in there.

I'm basing this on the music majors I know, not my own experience. I'm saying that based on my opinions of music majors I've met, formal schooling doesn't improve anything beyond technique, and I'm generally more impressed with the musicians who have no formal training myself because they aren't bounded as much by the rules which have been taught.
[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]No, that's stupid. I hate Jimmy Page's music with a passion, but I'm still not stupid enough to say that one of Emery's guitarists (who I think is creative and writes good music) is a better musician.
[/QUOTE]
k, so I'm stupid, got it. Opinions are wrong.

Seriously, for you guys claiming to be open minded you're awfully pretentious about this. If you make music I enjoy, I think you're a better musician than someone who makes music I dislike, simple as.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]ps: Our real club name rules.[/QUOTE]

Yes it does.

[QUOTE=jon]He is not your friend.[/QUOTE]

Lawl.

My user title is fun. I miss my old one though. It was so hypocritical :(

Mine is lasting a lot longer than it should hehe.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Joel honey I love you but you didn't make any point at all, you called me ignorant and said you've met a lot of amazing musicians. There was no point or even really argument in there.

I'm basing this on the music majors I know, not my own experience. I'm saying that based on my opinions of music majors I've met, formal schooling doesn't improve anything beyond technique, and I'm generally more impressed with the musicians who have no formal training myself because they aren't bounded as much by the rules which have been taught.[/QUOTE]

It was a point on how formal training is a good thing on creating good musicians. All good musicians do not take everything they've been taught as rote, that's obvious. You can call me pretentious but this is something where I actually think I can say I'm know what I'm talking about, and it's just frustrating to see a frankly immature viewpoint being defended so strongly.

p.s. this is about the formal training thing.

LMFAO WTF

I just noticed that Vince. It's a little late now dontcha think?

ps: I agree with Joel on this.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]
k, so I'm stupid, got it. Opinions are wrong.

Seriously, for you guys claiming to be open minded you're awfully pretentious about this. If you make music I enjoy, I think you're a better musician than someone who makes music I dislike, simple as.[/QUOTE]

No, you're really smart. You say stupid **** sometimes, though. But hey, everyone does, myself included. It's cool.

In Brandon's opinion (work with me, Brandon), I am not currently using the internet in my house. My opinion is wrong, since I obviously am. People like to use the word 'opinion' to justify incorrect statements. It doesn't.

How good someone is as a musician is not decided by Vince. How well someone can write music is decided by the listener, but it's a fact that Justin King is a better musician than Tom Delonge. Whether you like his music or not.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Mine is lasting a lot longer than it should hehe.[/QUOTE]

You're still the FEB PPOTM, regardless of what month it is. You can keep it until next year if you want.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]No, you're really smart. You say stupid **** sometimes, though. But hey, everyone does, myself included. It's cool.

In Brandon's opinion (work with me, Brandon), I am not currently using the internet in my house. My opinion is wrong, since I obviously am. People like to use the word 'opinion' to justify incorrect statements. It doesn't.

How good someone is as a musician is not decided by Vince. How well someone can write music is decided by the listener, but it's a fact that Justin King is a better musician than Tom Delonge. Whether you like his music or not.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I use that analogy(sp?) all the time.

It's like "hey guys in my opinion I'm not talking right now ok so that makes me right because it's my opinion".

Yeah it was lame, but I agree, there's some opinions where it's subjective to people's point of view and sometimes you're just plain wrong, whether it's opinion or not.

[QUOTE=PDWAB]It was a point on how formal training is a good thing on creating good musicians. All good musicians do not take everything they've been taught as rote, that's obvious. You can call me pretentious but this is something where I actually think I can say I'm know what I'm talking about, and it's just frustrating to see a frankly immature viewpoint being defended so strongly.[/QUOTE]
So basically since I'm not formally trained my viewpoint is null and void.

No.

But there's no point in arguing this because to be honest neither of us is going to budge. But I am losing a little respect for you on this Joel, it's a shame. I wish you were a little more open minded like you claim to be. I at least respect your view on the matter.

B: Meh.

Jon: Facts are objective. Musicianship is subjective.

How good a musician is, in my estimation, is decided by Vince. I don't care if someone else says A>B and I think the opposite, it's an opinion and they're allowed to have them. If someone says Tom Delonge is the best guitarist ever, cool. Glad they think so, I disagree but that's their perogative. If they say he's the most technical, that would be different.

EDIT: Oh good times, Gaby and I broke up a little over a week ago and now we're talking about setting up casual sex...fun times indeed.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]Dude, I use that analogy(sp?) all the time.

It's like "hey guys in my opinion I'm not talking right now ok so that makes me right because it's my opinion".

Yeah it was lame, but I agree, there's some opinions where it's subjective to people's point of view and sometimes you're just plain wrong, whether it's opinion or not.[/QUOTE]

Whenever I say analogy I always think of saying "Anal Lodge-y". Lolz!

Opinion is just a word that people use to justify their crappy taste in music/movies/television/writing.

By the way, get those Orson Scott Card books :p

Saying he's the best isn't exactly an opinion though. Because there is in no way possible anything about him that makes him the best.

I think it was more of a bad example, but I get what you mean Vince.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]Saying he's the best isn't exactly an opinion though. Because there is in no way possible anything about him that makes him the best.

I think it was more of a bad example, but I get what you mean Vince.[/QUOTE]
If you think Tom Delonge writes the most catchy guitar parts I cannot prove you wrong.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]
But there's no point in arguing this because to be honest neither of us is going to budge. But I am losing a little respect for you on this Joel, it's a shame. I wish you were a little more open minded like you claim to be. I at least respect your view on the matter.[/quote]

That's what people say when they know they've been beaten and can't defend their point any more. If you only argue when you know you can change someone's mind, then you will probably never argue.

Being closed minded to an opinion that is incorrect is not really being close minded. Would I lose your respect (if there's any left to lose, of course) if I was close minded towards the local suicide cult? Probably not.

[QUOTE]Jon: Facts are objective. Musicianship is subjective.[/quote]

No, facts that are objective aren't actually facts, they're speculation.

[quote]If someone says Tom Delonge is the best guitarist ever, cool.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's cool because it's okay to be wrong. It's still wrong, though.

[quote]EDIT: Oh good times, Gaby and I broke up a little over a week ago and now we're talking about setting up casual sex...fun times indeed.[/QUOTE]

Holy crap...casual sex tends to end in tears for one party involved, but good for you, Vince. Seriously.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]So basically since I'm not formally trained my viewpoint is null and void.

No.

But there's no point in arguing this because to be honest neither of us is going to budge. But I am losing a little respect for you on this Joel, it's a shame. I wish you were a little more open minded like you claim to be. I at least respect your view on the matter.


EDIT: Oh good times, Gaby and I broke up a little over a week ago and now we're talking about setting up casual sex...fun times indeed.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say that. You just keep making statements that show that you don't know very much about the professional music world, and hey I don't claim to know everything because I'm just a student, but I do know some things. The reason neither of us is budging is because we're coming from two very different places, and I don't want to say my place is the wiser and better place, but this is what I do, man. Give me some benefit of the doubt.

Also for your edit, that seems to be a pretty common occurrence after serious relationships. I know the sex (and drama) went on far longer than my most serious relationship.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]If you think Tom Delonge writes the most catchy guitar parts I cannot prove you wrong.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

Being able to write catchy music does not make one a good musician. It makes them a dude who can write catchy music.

[QUOTE=PDWAB]The reason neither of us is budging is because we're coming from two very different places, and I don't want to say my place is the wiser and better place, but this is what I do, man. [/QUOTE]

I wanna say it.

Joel's opinion on this is more valid than Vince's. There, I said it.

You're too diplomatic, Joel.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]If you think Tom Delonge writes the most catchy guitar parts I cannot prove you wrong.[/QUOTE]
This is a completely different statement from saying he's the best guitarist though.

ps: if I thought this I'd kill myself :)

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]That's what people say when they know they've been beaten and can't defend their point any more. If you only argue when you know you can change someone's mind, then you will probably never argue.

Being closed minded to an opinion that is incorrect is not really being close minded. Would I lose your respect (if there's any left to lose, of course) if I was close minded towards the local suicide cult? Probably not.

No, facts that are objective aren't actually facts, they're speculation.

Yeah, it's cool because it's okay to be wrong. It's still wrong, though.

Holy crap...casual sex tends to end in tears for one party involved, but good for you, Vince. Seriously.[/QUOTE]
No, I am quite a debater. I will argue fruitlessly for hours, but it's depressing me that I actually am losing respect for Joel over this because I really don't want to so I figured I'd try to cut losses early because I don't care enough about this to ruin my opinion of any of you.

People can take their lives as they please. I may not approve of it but I would never ever tell someone it's not their right to commit suicide.

Eh, I see it as an opinion.

Eh, we didn't end in tears so if I still have it coming, it's a valiant sacrifice.
[quote=Joel]I didn't say that. You just keep making statements that show that you don't know very much about the professional music world, and hey I don't claim to know everything because I'm just a student, but I do know some things. The reason neither of us is budging is because we're coming from two very different places, and I don't want to say my place is the wiser and better place, but this is what I do, man. Give me some benefit of the doubt.

Also for your edit, that seems to be a pretty common occurrence after serious relationships. I know the sex (and drama) went on far longer than my most serious relationship.[/quote]
Man, this is what I do too, it's what my family does. My brother is not formally trained on bass and I could see him getting into the best of music schools no problem regardless of his lack of theory or anything. He is just very good and spends as much time practicing if not more than the music majors I know, he plays at least 3 hours a day, and sometimes up to 12+. He's very dedicated but also very self-taught. I don't think I would ever see a formally trained bassist as better than him just because of that education.

Hmm, it was unexpected though. But a pleasant surprise, of course. Works for me, basically.

Jon and B: Why can't the catchiest parts make you the best? What is the criteria for best, write it out for me?

Musical ability. How well you actually play your instrument. That is what makes you a better musician that someone else.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Musical ability. How well you actually play your instrument. That is what makes you a better musician that someone else.[/QUOTE]
Define it more concisely.

Who is better between David Gilmour and Michael Batio?

[QUOTE]Jon and B: Why can't the catchiest parts make you the best? What is the criteria for best, write it out for me?[/QUOTE]Because playing catchy music doesn't make it good.

being the best at something would encompass all aspects of it not just one. And being catchy is only one part of guitar.