[QUOTE=halfdeadhippo]If memory serves, then Meshuggah's "Rational Gaze" is actually in 4/4. If you listen to it, listen to the cymbals, as they keep a steady beat the whole time. They just play really odd rhythms within 4/4.[/QUOTE]

I think lots of the guitar riffs are in 25/16 & 13/8. On alot of their songs, Tomas Haake plays straight 4/4 with his hands and mimics the guitar rythms with his feet. However they do have quite a few songs that are just 4/4 with really strange rythms and phrasing to make it not sound like 4/4.

Right, Meshuggah has a polyrhythm thing going with the drums on 4/4 and the guitar riffs in different time signatures, and it works because they eventually add to a multiple of the 4/4 signature.

[QUOTE=magicaltroll834]i dont get any of this but meshuggah has some pretty wierd rythyms in some of their songs
im pretty sure those are the same things.......

funny thing is i was in jazz band last year and i dont get this stuff, i just played everything by ear basically[/QUOTE]
Nope, actually most Meshuggah is straight 4/4. Dead serious.

The beat just falls in different places.

The Ocean switches between 7/8 & 4/4 each measure for a good part of the son

[QUOTE=Kwash2]Nope, actually most Meshuggah is straight 4/4. Dead serious.

The beat just falls in different places.[/QUOTE]

Depends upon your perspective and how you view the music. I believe that Messhugah writes the music by writing odd time guitar riffs and having Haake play straight time with his hands. Because the drums are such an instrumental part of defining the beat, the end product basically sounds like heavily syncopated 4/4 time.

[QUOTE=Det_Nosnip]Depends upon your perspective and how you view the music. I believe that Messhugah writes the music by writing odd time guitar riffs and having Haake play straight time with his hands. Because the drums are such an instrumental part of defining the beat, the end product basically sounds like heavily syncopated 4/4 time.[/QUOTE]
My point exactly.

I'm gonna write a song in THE MOST DIFFICULT TS EVER!!!!!!!

x/y

[QUOTE=moncholo]its not so weird, listen to money, from pink floyd, you´ll get a very fast n complete understanding of 7/4[/QUOTE]
offically Money is in 7/[b]8[/b], although i'd call it 7/4 cause you have to count the beat in half time for 7/8 which seems kind of slow.... then later it switches to 4/4.

[QUOTE=Det_Nosnip]MOP? As in Master of Puppets? That's 4/4 and 5/8, no 13/16. :lol:

Edit: although, if you want to write the barlines rather oddly, you could combine the two measures and make it 8+5, 13/8...but it's definetly not a /16 signature at that tempo.[/QUOTE]
5/8 is like 2.5 beats so im guessing you must have more measures than my version.
well i downloaded a guitar pro file that has it in 13/16 and it sounds right. the last slide from (3&5) to (5&7) are 2 SUB-eighthnotes (first note actually a sub-sub-eighthnote, and the last one a dotted SUB-eight-note) . heres what the one measure looks like:
4 beats
-|-------------------------------------|
-|-------------------------------------|
4|-------------------------------------|
-|-------------------------------------|
4|---------------------5-7----8-7-5-7-|
-|--0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-5-0-6-5-3-5--|


3.25 beats
--|------------------------------|
--|------------------------------|
13|------------------------------|
--|------------------------------|
16|---------------------5-7-5-7-|
--|--0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-5-3-5-|

if you really want proof, i can snapshot a picture and show you, or if theres a way for me to post a midi file, i can show that too.

Tool - Schism... still cant keep beat to that song lol, and im a drummer... I can play it if I dont try to count it (as in 1e&a 2e&a 3e&a 4e&a etc.e&a) That song is hard to play on bass, but easy on drums lol

from what I know about time signitures or understand at least, this is something to the effect it means:
the number at the bottom is an indication of what note length the bar is being divided. For example, a 4 means quarter notes, an 8 means eighthnotes etc. I was under the impression they can only be divided into 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 and 32. Those represent the 6 different divisions of a note. When trying to find out which note the bottom number divides to, just divide that number by 4. whatever decimal you get (if any), it should be a note that you recognize for example 0.5= eighth notes. And 0.25=sub-eightnote.
The top note (which is subdivided in the same note as the bottom, ex. if bottom is 8, the number on top is meant to be counted in eighth notes) shows how long the bar is meant to be. The total time of a bar is found by just simply counting.

BOTTON NUMBER ALWAYS HAS TO ADD UP TO 4 BEATS*****
__________________________________________________________

X/4 TIME:
4/4= 4 beats because it is being counted by quarter notes, and the top indicates there are to be 4 in total. 4 quarter notes added up is therefore 4 beats.
3/4= 3 beats. It is also counted by quarter notes, and since indicated by the top there is to be 3 of them, you can simple add 3 quarter notes together therefore giving you 3 beats.
*any time signiture over 4, just forget the math and assume the number on top is how many beats there.
** If you're creating time signitures for a song, be aware that X/4 time can only make your bar an even number of beats (ex. no 3.5 pr 2.25 beats, only can be whole numbers without any decimals)
that should be easy to understand I hope

X/8 time:
7/8: 3.5 beats in total. It is being counted by eightnotes because 8 sub-eightnotes is equal to 4 beats (0.5 * 8= 4). The top shows that there is 7 of them. Well 7 eighthnotes added up is equal to 3.5 (0.5 * 7=3.5)
6/8: 3 beats in total. It is being counted by eightnotes because 8 sub-eightnotes is equal to 4 beats (0.5 * 8= 4). The top shows that there is 6 of them. Well 6 eighthnotes added up is equal to 3 (0.5 * 6=3). Also note that if you simplify 6/8, it is 3/4. Both of them end up giving you 3 beats to a measure (if confused of how 3/4 also makes sense, remember that it is a whole number with no decimals).

CONCLUSION: the bottom number is divided by 4. Take your resultant and multiply it by the top number. The result of that is how many beats you should have


Do I need to show the rest also? Hope you got it (im a horrible explainer, sorry)

[QUOTE=metal_milita]5/8 is like 2.5 beats so im guessing you must have more measures than my version.
well i downloaded a guitar pro file that has it in 13/16 and it sounds right. the last slide from (3&5) to (5&7) are 2 SUB-eighthnotes (first note actually a sub-sub-eighthnote, and the last one a dotted SUB-eight-note) . heres what the one measure looks like:
4 beats
-|-------------------------------------|
-|-------------------------------------|
4|-------------------------------------|
-|-------------------------------------|
4|---------------------5-7----8-7-5-7-|
-|--0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-5-0-6-5-3-5--|


3.25 beats
--|------------------------------|
--|------------------------------|
13|------------------------------|
--|------------------------------|
16|---------------------5-7-5-7-|
--|--0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-5-3-5-|[/QUOTE]

3.25 beats a measure? Hmmm... I guess it's feasable to corrolate other time signatures to 4/4 just to make sense of it. But I have an easier time with raw conceptions. 13/16 means there are 13 notes a measure, all in 16ths, that's all. No hassle. Playing it is when it starts getting tricky. ;)

[QUOTE=mushroomheadrules]Tool - Schism... still cant keep beat to that song lol, and im a drummer... I can play it if I dont try to count it (as in 1e&a 2e&a 3e&a 4e&a etc.e&a) That song is hard to play on bass, but easy on drums lol[/QUOTE]


The main section of Schism goes from 5/8 to 7/8, alternating.

[QUOTE=metal_milita]
6/8: 3 beats in total. It is being counted by eightnotes because 8 sub-eightnotes is equal to 4 beats (0.5 * 8= 4). The top shows that there is 6 of them. Well 6 eighthnotes added up is equal to 3 (0.5 * 6=3). Also note that if you simplify 6/8, it is 3/4. Both of them end up giving you 3 beats to a measure (if confused of how 3/4 also makes sense, remember that it is a whole number with no decimals).
[/QUOTE]

Actually, 6/8 feels like 2/4 with triplets. Just like how 12/8 feels like 4/4 with triplets, which is why it is commonly used in blues.

[QUOTE=The JoZ]The main section of Schism goes from 5/8 to 7/8, alternating.[/QUOTE]
I thought the main riff was in 12/8 and the following 'heavy'part with the main riff going to the a string is in 13/8 ?

You can't have half of a beat in a time signature. 3/4 has three beats where a quarter note gets the beat, 7/8 has seven, where the eighth note gets the beat.

[QUOTE=Mardy]I thought the main riff was in 12/8 and the following 'heavy'part with the main riff going to the a string is in 13/8 ?[/QUOTE]


5/8 + 7/8 = 12/8

If you count it "1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7" it flows better than "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12"

You're right about the 13/8 section, but I've always counted that "1 2 3 4 5 6 7, 1 2 3 4 5 6"

Same idea as the main riff, but you add a count.

[QUOTE=The JoZ]5/8 + 7/8 = 12/8

If you count it "1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7" it flows better than "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12"

You're right about the 13/8 section, but I've always counted that "1 2 3 4 5 6 7, 1 2 3 4 5 6"

Same idea as the main riff, but you add a count.[/QUOTE]

Stupid me, I should have known that.

[QUOTE=DeathHawk]or 1/1 i guesssss


never heard it used in a song though[/QUOTE]

I guess you could say that the very first part of System of a Down's song "Prison Song" is in 1/1. It just goes BAM! And that's the whole measure.

[QUOTE=Mekkalayakay]Numerous Planet X songs are in very weird time signatures.[/QUOTE]
Some one else on this boards actually knows about Planet X. Virgil owns all. :thumb: Marco Minnemann is god when it comes to switching time sigs.

[QUOTE=AimlessDave]I guess you could say that the very first part of System of a Down's song "Prison Song" is in 1/1. It just goes BAM! And that's the whole measure.[/QUOTE]

nah, I think the composers had something else in mind, like a 4/4, its way more practical.
like:

[FONT=Courier New]4/4
|---------|-------|-------|--------|
|---------|-------|-------|--------|
|---------|-------|-------|--------|
|-BAM!----|-------|-------|--------|
__1___+___2___+___3___+___4___+___ [/FONT]

and
[FONT=Courier New]1/1
|------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------|
|-BAM!-------------------------------|
__1_______________________________ [/FONT]

theres a rush song where in one part the time signiture changes every bar.

[quote]If you count it "1 2 3 4 5, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7" it flows better than "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12"[/quote]

It can go either way, since it would be a compound 12/8 in 5 and 7. But you're right, 5/8 and 7/8 does make it a little easier to think in.

[QUOTE=DeathHawk]The top number is the NUMBER of notes

The bottom is the TYPE of notes

So 5/4 would be 5 quarter notes.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the top number stands for how many Beats are in the measure, not the number of notes in the measure.

There is a classical song in which the performing ensemble is divided up right down the middle from where the conductor stands to the back and the left half of the band is in 4/4 time and the right half of the band is in 3/4 time. The conductor has to conduct the left half with his left hand in a 4/4 pattern and the right half with his right hand in a 3/4 pattern. The two patterns line up something like every 12 measures or so.

[QUOTE=dave grohl]theres a rush song where in one part the time signiture changes every bar.[/QUOTE]

"Cygnus X-1?"

[QUOTE=ZOSO68]There is a classical song in which the performing ensemble is divided up right down the middle from where the conductor stands to the back and the left half of the band is in 4/4 time and the right half of the band is in 3/4 time. The conductor has to conduct the left half with his left hand in a 4/4 pattern and the right half with his right hand in a 3/4 pattern. The two patterns line up something like every 12 measures or so.[/QUOTE]
what does the music sound like

[QUOTE=ventura]4/4 will forever elude me.[/QUOTE]
:lol:

I still think 5/4 is hard cause its a rushed kind of feeling into the next measure. 5/4 songs have rushed feelings to the way they sound and are played, and then having a time sig change to 4/4 and back again in the same song is tough. :smash:

[QUOTE=ZOSO68]There is a classical song in which the performing ensemble is divided up right down the middle from where the conductor stands to the back and the left half of the band is in 4/4 time and the right half of the band is in 3/4 time. The conductor has to conduct the left half with his left hand in a 4/4 pattern and the right half with his right hand in a 3/4 pattern. The two patterns line up something like every 12 measures or so.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to hear that.

a lot of rush's stuff has weird time signatures. i think la villa strangiato has something like 3/5

[QUOTE=dave grohl]theres a rush song where in one part the time signiture changes every bar.[/QUOTE]
la villa strangiato

[QUOTE=Guitarromanic]I still think 5/4 is hard cause its a rushed kind of feeling into the next measure. 5/4 songs have rushed feelings to the way they sound and are played, and then having a time sig change to 4/4 and back again in the same song is tough. :smash:[/QUOTE]


Listen to the beggining beat in The Patient by Tool its 5/4 yet it sounds so naturaul and unrushed like you said but i do understand what your saying being a drummer

[QUOTE=Guitarromanic]I still think 5/4 is hard cause its a rushed kind of feeling into the next measure. 5/4 songs have rushed feelings to the way they sound and are played, and then having a time sig change to 4/4 and back again in the same song is tough. :smash:[/QUOTE]

5/4 sounding rushed?.. I disagree!.. Very much, how can something, with an extra beat sound rushed?.. It's the opposite.. IMO
7/8 sounds rushed on the other hand.. A bit like someone talking without taking breaks to breathe.

[QUOTE=Anarchy for the UK]a lot of rush's stuff has weird time signatures. i think la villa strangiato has something like 3/5[/QUOTE]You can't have 3/5 :lol: The bottom number has to be an exponent of 2.

[QUOTE=Everything_and_Nothing_3:15]Some one else on this boards actually knows about Planet X. Virgil owns all. :thumb: Marco Minnemann is god when it comes to switching time sigs.[/QUOTE]Dude, Virgil said once that their most exotic time signature is 4/4. I love him.

Rational Gaze from Meshuggah is in 15/8 and thats pretty gimped in the *** i'd say

[QUOTE=ZOSO68]Actually, the top number stands for how many Beats are in the measure, not the number of notes in the measure.[/QUOTE]



Eh, thats what I meant.


But I didn't want to throw such obscure terms like "Measures" in this topic, where only about 6 people actually know music theory.

[QUOTE=ShredMachine]You can't have 3/5 :lol: The bottom number has to be an exponent of 2.[/QUOTE]
well it was something weird. i think that was a typo anyway. i dont read music anyway, i'm all for working stuff out or getting tabs