[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]"they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own."

I'm not sure they stole songs anymore than EC or any other major act that covers songs does, but whatever.

Also, I don't like calling Led Zeppelin blues/rock. Theres so much more than just that. Theres folk, reggae and even jazz infused in their music.[/QUOTE]
you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it.

and they really only dabbled in those other genres. i would still overridingly call them blues/rock.

"you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it."

Interesting. Can you tell me more. What are some examples?

[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]"you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it."

Interesting. Can you tell me more. What are some examples?[/QUOTE]

[B]How Many More Times[/B] - They took many blues lyrics and threw them all together, including some from Howlin' Wolf.

[B]You Shook Me/I Can't Quit You Baby[/B] - Both of these songs were written by Willie Dixon. He even brought up a lawsuit against them for using them without his consent.

[B]Dazed And Confused[/B] - Originally written by Jake Holmes, claimed to be written by Jimmy Page.

[B]Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You[/B] - An English folk song or something, credited mostly to Jimmy page.

[B]Stairway To Heaven[/B] - Claimed to have an extremely similar chord progression to "Taurus", a song by the band Spirit. I've never heard "Taurus", so I can't vouch for this one.

There are many others, but it's too late and I can't think straight right now. Maybe tomorrow.

EDIT: You can read more about it [URL=http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html]here[/URL].

I knew Dixon wrote some of those songs, he get's credit now so I guess I never put it together. Thanks for the info and the link.

[QUOTE=jam9383]the first note bent D a full step which is a E which is in Am penta scale ,the fifth of A and not a new or interesting note choice[/QUOTE]

I see, but I did not mean the very first note. I meant, from what I can remember, a note in the first phrase. I'll have a listen to refresh my mind.

05:56 - there's the note I thought spiced it up. Now, I'll admit that the reason why I reacted, might be that around the time I first listened to it, I also listened to many other classic rock bands whose solos were - almost exclusively - based on the Pentatonic minor scale, nothing more. Thus, the Stairway To Heaven solos acted as a refresher compared to what I was used to.

[QUOTE=magicbus]For Page: Misty Mountain Hop, D'Yer Mak'er

For Hendrix: The Wind Cries Mary, May This Be Love

I'm having trouble thinking of more, but I'll post them if I can think of them.[/QUOTE]

Great examples you provded there. Exactly the type I was looking for.

Regarding these exact song examples, Page seemed to have a somewhat simpler approach to the songs, yet it worked perfectly I think.

Hendrix' contributions were a little more complex, and a bit more technical. However, Page was equally good on creating something that suits the musical setting. While Hendrix had a slightly more nuanced approach, I don't know whether it added that much more to the song, compared to Page's examples in this case.

Anyway, I got what I wanted. Great atmospheres in all 4 songs. Thank you, and feel free to give more examples in the same vein.

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it. [/QUOTE]

So they are right along acts like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf?

[QUOTE=DemBonez]So they are right along acts like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf?[/QUOTE]
no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]i would classify zeppelin as blues/rock. and seeing as how jazz/rock belongs in the jazz forum, i suppose blues rock belongs here.

they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own.[/QUOTE]
my point was that you couldnt go that far as to consider led zeppellin to be in jazz forum because you could go on with associating and include any band in forum like GNR jazz-Blues-Rock-GNR

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?[/QUOTE]
either way muddy and wolf wouldnt try to claim credit for it unlike Page , Taurus does sound like Stairway

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?[/QUOTE]

You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.

[QUOTE=jam9383]my point was that you couldnt go that far as to consider led zeppellin to be in jazz forum because you could go on with associating and include any band in forum like GNR jazz-Blues-Rock-GNR[/QUOTE]

I don't know about Guns 'N Roses (however it's spelled) in particular, but I strongly agree with your basic point. Sure, both jazz and Jimmy Page used blues as points of departure, but to say that therefore Jimmy Page belongs in the jazz forum is like playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Wow, you know what's so amazing about all this? It started out as a Jimmy Hendrix thread. Now we're discussing blues and rock artists who stole other people's songs. :lol:

I know. I mean, I like Led Zep an all, but I'm sick and ****ing tired of people bringing Jimmy Page into everything.

Well, as this thread was created in order to get a few answers about Hendrix and the great rhythm/groove of his band; Let me add that I hear a similar thing going on in most - yes - Rage Against The Machine songs.

You can argue whether this and that artist or band should be discussed in this forum, but when bands got qualities which I associate with, let's say funk, I feel like asking a question. I have always considered the groove of Hendrix's music funky, yet I see that he does not play funk in its pure form, not at all.

Some bands may have a groovy approach, by nature. In Rage Against The Machine's case, it sounds like 4/4, but very... swinging; not as 'standard' as the 4/4 I hear in many other songs. The last song of the mentioned band I noticed this feel in was Snakecharmer. Bullet In The Head and Killing In The Name Of... are other examples.

Any comments?

(I hope you don't flame me for bringing in bands 'outside' of the funk/jazz genre, strictly speaking)

[QUOTE=DemBonez]You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.[/QUOTE]
same tune as in same chord progression? at least he changed the lyrics. i dont know. you clearly know more about blues than i do as i rarely dip into pre-war blues. you learn something every day, huh?

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]
Another detail, be it a pro- or con- for Page, is the way the song builds up. The way the song explodes into a solo exactly when it does, fits perfectly. One might say that the song screams for a solo at this point. Then again, based on the same premises, there will be quite high expactations for a solo after such a build up. Finally, there's the question whether Page succeeded or not.[/QUOTE]

I'd already covered ALL of that. There's a minimum the solo has to accomplish (which, in contradistinction, Carlos Alomar on Bowie's "Loving the Alien" fails to accomplish in analogous but more difficult circumstances). Once that threshold is reached the song supports the soloist and makes his job easier.

[QUOTE=DemBonez]You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.[/QUOTE]

That's the way the blues works, musicians recycle each others stuff.

[QUOTE=Ned]I'd already covered ALL of that. There's a minimum the solo has to accomplish (which, in contradistinction, Carlos Alomar on Bowie's "Loving the Alien" fails to accomplish in analogous but more difficult circumstances). Once that threshold is reached the song supports the soloist and makes his job easier.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Could you tell a bit more about the Bowie song? Compare it to Stairway To Heaven.

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]same tune as in same chord progression? at least he changed the lyrics. i dont know. you clearly know more about blues than i do as i rarely dip into pre-war blues. you learn something every day, huh?[/QUOTE]

The guitar part is the same lick as the Tommy Johnson's song, but Howlin' decided to remove the chord progression. And yes, as stated already that this has become common practice in the blues. While blues musicians "pay homage" by taking credit for other's songs, rock musicians "plagiarize" for doing the same thing. The blues is a strange genre in that way people apraise it.

[QUOTE=DemBonez]The guitar part is the same lick as the Tommy Johnson's song, but Howlin' decided to remove the chord progression. And yes, as stated already that this has become common practice in the blues. While blues musicians "pay homage" by taking credit for other's songs, rock musicians "plagiarize" for doing the same thing. The blues is a strange genre in that way people apraise it.[/QUOTE]
I think thats because someone like keith richards or some of the other rock musicians set precedence for giving credit except page.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Interesting. Could you tell a bit more about the Bowie song? Compare it to Stairway To Heaven.[/QUOTE]

Oh, it's just that there's an elaborate set-up to the solo. "Loving the Alien" appeared on [i]Tonight[/i], which was the follow-up to [i]Let's Dance[/i], and some of the arrangements seem to assume that Stevie Ray Vaughan is still among the musicians present.

[QUOTE=DemBonez]The guitar part is the same lick as the Tommy Johnson's song, but Howlin' decided to remove the chord progression. And yes, as stated already that this has become common practice in the blues. While blues musicians "pay homage" by taking credit for other's songs, rock musicians "plagiarize" for doing the same thing. The blues is a strange genre in that way people apraise it.[/QUOTE]

It depends how you go about [EDIT] it [/EDIT]. It was a fairly brazen and crude for Led Zeppelin to appropriate Robert Johnson's "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg" unattributed and then TITLE the result "The Lemon Song" (not to be confused with the Nazz's "The Lemming Song").

[QUOTE=Ned]It depends how you go about. It was a fairly brazen and crude for Led Zeppelin to appropriate Robert Johnson's "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg" unattributed and then TITLE the result "The Lemon Song" (not to be confused with the Nazz's "The Lemming Song").[/QUOTE]
and also melding various parts of different blues songs to form "how many more times." maybe it was just shocking because it was a time where musicians actually had begun crediting their sources, like the rolling stones and others. but i also see where dembonez is coming from.

How would you describe the frequency of swing rhythms in Hendrix' songs? Quite high, or did he stick to standard rhythms. His songs of 4/4, for instance; were many of them 4/4 swing, or regular 4/4?

[QUOTE=Ned]It depends how you go about [EDIT] it [/EDIT]. It was a fairly brazen and crude for Led Zeppelin to appropriate Robert Johnson's "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg" unattributed and then TITLE the result "The Lemon Song" (not to be confused with the Nazz's "The Lemming Song").[/QUOTE]

Why don't you actually bring up the real plagiarism in that song? Plant doesn't steal the line verbatim from Johnson's "Traveling Riverside Blues", and in fact it is similar to what Johnson did with his "Cross Road Blues." Think Robert Johnson came up with the idea of selling his soul at the crossroads? The whole lore manifested (atleast documented) with Peetie Wheatstraw who claimed to have been the Devil's son-in-law. Tommy Johnson (no relation to Robert) who enjoyed Wheatstraw's persona started to claim that he had sold his soul to the devil to learn how to play guitar, oddly enough he went down to the crossroads. This was the mid '20s, long before Johnson was recording in '36.

Of course the song does take heavily from Howlin' Wolf's "The Killing Floor."

Also, Robert Johnson ripped off Lonnie Johnson's "Life Saver Blues" with different lyrics under the name "Malted Milk". At least, that's what I heard.

Hendrix though! Whenever I see a Hendrix thread, I can't keep away. Let's see...Hendrix IS underrated on this whole board more often than not. That really disappoints me. If you think Hendrix is nothing special, you've got to hear more of his work, not excluding the live performances *cough*Winterland*cough* *cough*Stockholm*cough*WoodstockBerkeleyFillmoreEastBlackpoolParis ET CETERA

Ah, now we can return to the topic...well, the new topic. Lol. I think it's on blues now? GOD I LOVE BLUES!

[QUOTE=DemBonez]Why don't you actually bring up the real plagiarism in that song? Plant doesn't steal the line verbatim from Johnson's "Traveling Riverside Blues", and in fact it is similar to what Johnson did with his "Cross Road Blues." Think Robert Johnson came up with the idea of selling his soul at the crossroads? The whole lore manifested (atleast documented) with Peetie Wheatstraw who claimed to have been the Devil's son-in-law. Tommy Johnson (no relation to Robert) who enjoyed Wheatstraw's persona started to claim that he had sold his soul to the devil to learn how to play guitar, oddly enough he went down to the crossroads. This was the mid '20s, long before Johnson was recording in '36.

Of course the song does take heavily from Howlin' Wolf's "The Killing Floor."[/QUOTE]

Two problems with this post: 1) You've unaccountably completely misunderstood me. I didn't accuse Led Zeppelin of plagiarism; I accused it of bad taste. 2) It's bait and switch. If you KNOW the complete history of the line in question ("you squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg"), tell us; don't go off on a "devil at the crossroads" tangent.

So in other words you had a completely irrelevant post just showing that Led Zeppelin had "bad taste"? Touché Ned. Quoting what I said and having an irrelevant comment on it is a great discussion starter.

It's a shame we were robbed of Hendrix so quickly. We can only guess what he would be doing now.
He MIGHT be whoring himself out to the likes of P-Diddy (or whoever the hell he is nowadays) as Page did but I doubt it.