[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Does better technique not make you a better musician :confused:[/QUOTE]
Not in my mind, no. Shred, for instance, does nothing for me.
[QUOTE=PDWAB]I've just spent a year meeting the best musicians I've ever met at this University, so I'm sorry but from where I'm coming from that is a really ignorant statement.[/QUOTE]
Joel, you're a music major. If you had agreed with me I'd have had to ask you what the hell you were doing in a music degree :)

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Not in my mind, no. Shred, for instance, does nothing for me.[/QUOTE]

Then how do you judge how good and talented a musician is?

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Then how do you judge how good and talented a musician is?[/QUOTE]
You can't really judge how talented they are really, but you can tell if they have some if any.

I prefer overall musical talent rather than just instrumental.

This is why I can't listen to Dream Theater much. It's all nice to hear some sick guitar playing for a bit, but then I have to turn on something that has a little more depth.

Since when does Dream Theater not have depth :confused:?

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Then how do you judge how good and talented a musician is?[/QUOTE]
Subjectively.

Based on what you think of the music they create. I'm pretty sure the definition of musician runs along the lines of "one who creates music"

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Since when does Dream Theater not have depth :confused:?[/QUOTE]
Since all they do is just shred up every single instrument. It doesn't even sound like there's any emotion. It's just mindless technicality. IMO.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Subjectively.

Based on what you think of the music they create. I'm pretty sure the definition of musician runs along the lines of "one who creates music"[/QUOTE]

No, a musician is someone who plays music. A composer or a writer is omeone who creates it. If a musician is only someone who creates music, than even the people who play in the most famous orchestras aren't even musicians, because they aren't actually writing anything.
[QUOTE]
Since all they do is just shred up every single instrument. It doesn't even sound like there's any emotion. It's just mindless technicality. IMO.[/QUOTE]

You obviously haven't heard much Dream Theater...

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]You obviously haven't heard much Dream Theater...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I've only got 3 cds :-\

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]Yeah, I've only got 3 cds :-\[/QUOTE]

If you can listen to Scenes From A Memory and say that it's an emotionless shredfest, you have no idea what music is.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]If you can listen to Scenes From A Memory and say that it's an emotionless shredfest, you have no idea what music is.[/QUOTE]
Not ALL of it is. But some of it certainly is.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]Not ALL of it is. But some of it certainly is.[/QUOTE]

Scenes From A Memory is a masterpiece of music.

I don't care about or listen to other Dream Theater.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Scenes From A Memory is a masterpiece of music.

I don't care about or listen to other Dream Theater.[/QUOTE]
haha

I feel like that about a lot of bands.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]No, a musician is someone who plays music. A composer or a writer is omeone who creates it. If a musician is only someone who creates music, than even the people who play in the most famous orchestras aren't even musicians, because they aren't actually writing anything.
[/QUOTE]
Since when is playing not creating music?

A composer composes it. A musician creates it in any form. Reading sheet and playing it is still creating music. Music isn't what's written on the paper, it's what you hear.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Since when is playing not creating music?

A composer composes it. A musician creates it in any form. Reading sheet and playing it is still creating music. Music isn't what's written on the paper, it's what you hear.[/QUOTE]

So if you happen to link Tom Delonge's music more than Michael Angelo Batio's music (google video him if you don't know him), then Tom Delonge is a better musician?

I don't follow your logic.

How good someone is at their instrument is not subjective.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]So if you happen to link Tom Delonge's music more than Michael Angelo Batio's music (google video him if you don't know him), then Tom Delonge is a better musician?

I don't follow your logic.

How good someone is at their instrument is not subjective.[/QUOTE]
Yes.

Kay, I thought it was pretty straightforward.

Right.

WHY IS EVERYBODY STILL ARGUING ABOUT MUSIC LESSONS?

Im back.

[QUOTE=vince]Yes.

Kay, I thought it was pretty straightforward.

Right.[/QUOTE]

All three of these answers are correct, in my opinion.

sup Cob

Everyone join our "I hate everything club" (even this club)

[quote]Joel, you're a music major. If you had agreed with me I'd have had to ask you what the hell you were doing in a music degree[/quote]

Awesome, so you can ignore my point.

Formal training touches on ALL aspects of playing music, including musicality, personal interpretations of the music- it's about helping you be a [i]musician,[/i] not a note-playing automaton. Most people have a limited perspective on it because they don't pursue it past the technique stage, which is a necessary part to ensure you have the tools you need to really explore the more musical side of things.

I'd love to be a music major but I suck at instruments.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Yes.
[/QUOTE]

No, that's stupid. I hate Jimmy Page's music with a passion, but I'm still not stupid enough to say that one of Emery's guitarists (who I think is creative and writes good music) is a better musician.

[QUOTE]Awesome, so you can ignore my point.
[/QUOTE]

This made me laugh. Joel is still the coolest person ever.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]sup Cob

Everyone join our "I hate everything club" (even this club)[/QUOTE]

No no no, the name of it is The 'I Hate This Club All Of The Time' Club.

Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.

[QUOTE=cobert]
Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon[/QUOTE]

My one friend suggested heroin.

[QUOTE=cobert]No no no, the name of it is The 'I Hate This Club All Of The Time' Club.

Seriously though. It hit me yesterday....The reason why i ahte everything is because everything sucks. Nothing is good in my life anymore.[/QUOTE]
I used to think like that. I actually still do. But I get around it by prancing around like a fairy and skipping down the street. It makes me feel better.

ps: Our real club name rules.

[QUOTE=cobert]My one friend suggested heroin.[/QUOTE]

He is not your friend.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]Maybe you should whine some more. That will better your situation.

"If everything sucks, lower your standards." - Jon[/QUOTE]

I think that was a Calvin and Hobbes strip, where Calvin decided the secret to being happy with yourself was to lower your standards to the point where they're already met.

Calvin and Hobbes rule! :)

[QUOTE=PDWAB]Awesome, so you can ignore my point.

Formal training touches on ALL aspects of playing music, including musicality, personal interpretations of the music- it's about helping you be a [i]musician,[/i] not a note-playing automaton. Most people have a limited perspective on it because they don't pursue it past the technique stage, which is a necessary part to ensure you have the tools you need to really explore the more musical side of things.[/QUOTE]
Joel honey I love you but you didn't make any point at all, you called me ignorant and said you've met a lot of amazing musicians. There was no point or even really argument in there.

I'm basing this on the music majors I know, not my own experience. I'm saying that based on my opinions of music majors I've met, formal schooling doesn't improve anything beyond technique, and I'm generally more impressed with the musicians who have no formal training myself because they aren't bounded as much by the rules which have been taught.
[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]No, that's stupid. I hate Jimmy Page's music with a passion, but I'm still not stupid enough to say that one of Emery's guitarists (who I think is creative and writes good music) is a better musician.
[/QUOTE]
k, so I'm stupid, got it. Opinions are wrong.

Seriously, for you guys claiming to be open minded you're awfully pretentious about this. If you make music I enjoy, I think you're a better musician than someone who makes music I dislike, simple as.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]ps: Our real club name rules.[/QUOTE]

Yes it does.

[QUOTE=jon]He is not your friend.[/QUOTE]

Lawl.

My user title is fun. I miss my old one though. It was so hypocritical :(

Mine is lasting a lot longer than it should hehe.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Joel honey I love you but you didn't make any point at all, you called me ignorant and said you've met a lot of amazing musicians. There was no point or even really argument in there.

I'm basing this on the music majors I know, not my own experience. I'm saying that based on my opinions of music majors I've met, formal schooling doesn't improve anything beyond technique, and I'm generally more impressed with the musicians who have no formal training myself because they aren't bounded as much by the rules which have been taught.[/QUOTE]

It was a point on how formal training is a good thing on creating good musicians. All good musicians do not take everything they've been taught as rote, that's obvious. You can call me pretentious but this is something where I actually think I can say I'm know what I'm talking about, and it's just frustrating to see a frankly immature viewpoint being defended so strongly.

p.s. this is about the formal training thing.

LMFAO WTF

I just noticed that Vince. It's a little late now dontcha think?

ps: I agree with Joel on this.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]
k, so I'm stupid, got it. Opinions are wrong.

Seriously, for you guys claiming to be open minded you're awfully pretentious about this. If you make music I enjoy, I think you're a better musician than someone who makes music I dislike, simple as.[/QUOTE]

No, you're really smart. You say stupid **** sometimes, though. But hey, everyone does, myself included. It's cool.

In Brandon's opinion (work with me, Brandon), I am not currently using the internet in my house. My opinion is wrong, since I obviously am. People like to use the word 'opinion' to justify incorrect statements. It doesn't.

How good someone is as a musician is not decided by Vince. How well someone can write music is decided by the listener, but it's a fact that Justin King is a better musician than Tom Delonge. Whether you like his music or not.

[QUOTE=Permanent Solution]Mine is lasting a lot longer than it should hehe.[/QUOTE]

You're still the FEB PPOTM, regardless of what month it is. You can keep it until next year if you want.

[QUOTE=BridgeToSolace]No, you're really smart. You say stupid **** sometimes, though. But hey, everyone does, myself included. It's cool.

In Brandon's opinion (work with me, Brandon), I am not currently using the internet in my house. My opinion is wrong, since I obviously am. People like to use the word 'opinion' to justify incorrect statements. It doesn't.

How good someone is as a musician is not decided by Vince. How well someone can write music is decided by the listener, but it's a fact that Justin King is a better musician than Tom Delonge. Whether you like his music or not.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I use that analogy(sp?) all the time.

It's like "hey guys in my opinion I'm not talking right now ok so that makes me right because it's my opinion".

Yeah it was lame, but I agree, there's some opinions where it's subjective to people's point of view and sometimes you're just plain wrong, whether it's opinion or not.

[QUOTE=PDWAB]It was a point on how formal training is a good thing on creating good musicians. All good musicians do not take everything they've been taught as rote, that's obvious. You can call me pretentious but this is something where I actually think I can say I'm know what I'm talking about, and it's just frustrating to see a frankly immature viewpoint being defended so strongly.[/QUOTE]
So basically since I'm not formally trained my viewpoint is null and void.

No.

But there's no point in arguing this because to be honest neither of us is going to budge. But I am losing a little respect for you on this Joel, it's a shame. I wish you were a little more open minded like you claim to be. I at least respect your view on the matter.

B: Meh.

Jon: Facts are objective. Musicianship is subjective.

How good a musician is, in my estimation, is decided by Vince. I don't care if someone else says A>B and I think the opposite, it's an opinion and they're allowed to have them. If someone says Tom Delonge is the best guitarist ever, cool. Glad they think so, I disagree but that's their perogative. If they say he's the most technical, that would be different.

EDIT: Oh good times, Gaby and I broke up a little over a week ago and now we're talking about setting up casual sex...fun times indeed.

[QUOTE=Fire Whispers]Dude, I use that analogy(sp?) all the time.

It's like "hey guys in my opinion I'm not talking right now ok so that makes me right because it's my opinion".

Yeah it was lame, but I agree, there's some opinions where it's subjective to people's point of view and sometimes you're just plain wrong, whether it's opinion or not.[/QUOTE]

Whenever I say analogy I always think of saying "Anal Lodge-y". Lolz!

Opinion is just a word that people use to justify their crappy taste in music/movies/television/writing.

By the way, get those Orson Scott Card books :p

Saying he's the best isn't exactly an opinion though. Because there is in no way possible anything about him that makes him the best.

I think it was more of a bad example, but I get what you mean Vince.