[QUOTE=ghettoeddo]ehh....rip-off or not...DT > TOOL
/end argument :smoke:

[/QUOTE]

I wholeheartedly disagree. I like DT, though. Lots of good stuff from them. Can't say I really liked Octavarium too much, though.

Most tracks on that CD were quite good

Dude, that CD sucked.

[QUOTE=The Wizard of Oz]Well guys I see it's no use arguing with you. Besides, I'm a better musician and further into the scene than you will ever be.[/QUOTE]
Even if that is true, there are plenty of musicians far more successful and well respected than you who are big Dream Theater fans. And how does that make you're opinion any more valuable?

[QUOTE=eug008]Most tracks on that CD were quite good[/QUOTE]

The only track I could stand was the title track and even some of that I thought was poor.

[QUOTE=nowitzki]Even if that is true, there are plenty of musicians far more successful and well respected than you who are big Dream Theater fans. And how does that make you're opinion any more valuable?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but most muso's and listeners agree with me.

Wow I missed a lot.

[QUOTE=eug008]Most tracks on that CD were quite good[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, but that CD is not as good as IW and ToT.

It's better than ToT.
ToT is full of wank and is basically heavy songs, minus Vacant of course. Octavarium has many different styles on it and each song sounds different to the last which is one of the reasons why I love it.

It do has different styles on it, but I like more ToT than Octavarium. I agree that Octavarium is a great song, it is much better than A Change of Seasons.

I'd take ACOS over Octavarium.

Octavarium's intro is far too long.

Yeah, it is too long I preffer ACOS's intro, but the rest of the song is better than ACOS.

I actually like the long intro, but i cant compare it to ACOS, cause i never got into it.

ACOS defines progressive metal better than any song I've ever heard recorded. The only one that comes close is Metropolis Part 1.

It's definately one of DT's best songs, and I'd take it over Octavarium, even though Oct is very good.

I really like Octavarium, it took a good while for me to get into, but it's great.

Dream Theater's emotion is entirely, for me, based around the massive amounts of emotion in James' singing, that's a huge reason why I love the band so much and James is only behind Bruce Dickinson as my favourite vocalist of all time.
Take away my pain speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=plexiglass teh gay]Dude, that CD sucked.[/QUOTE]
you. please get out. im saying it nicely.

first off, if i recall correctly, it's against the rules of this forum to go into a band thread to say they blow monkeys. especially without backing up your argument. so far, all you have said was dream theater sucks and that octavarium sucked.people in the past few pages have at least SUPPORTED their positions w/ intelligent discourse.

[QUOTE=liberi]For the most part I find frustration and anger unattractive in music though. If I want to zone out and not focus on the music, then I'm not opposed to angry or frustrated music. But generally, I cannot see how ugliness and anger could attract somebody.[/QUOTE]
but because you personally cannot see how ugliness and anger are attractive...that clouds your own "objectivity" so to speak. in the same way that i can't understand why people would listen to death metal/black metal w/ lyrics abot sodomizing dead babies or corpses...it's still quite obvious taht the genres have their avid followers and supporters for a reason.

someone also said over-composing is the death of emotion. i must wholeheartedly disagree with such a blanket statement.
there seems to be a general consensus that emotion = simplicity while complexity = overly technical wanking.
dream theater has this mindset of working a song until tehy feel it is done. they don't feel limited to a certain song structure or song length. they write and write and write as people bring in new ideas until they feel it is done. now that's a pretty unique approach if i've ever seen one.
i don't doubt that the little boy performing a song for some benefit foundation (i can't quite remember) was emotional; im sure it was. heck, a simple pop song can bring tears to my eyes. high school musical did.

but for some people, dream theater is emotional. i, for one, am one of them. the spirit carries on moves me like no other. i can't even listen to blind faith all the way without completely losing my focus on what i'm doing and becoming totally absorbed with the song.

and as for the whole shredding deal...i think it can express, better than other techniques, just this...chaotic emotional feeling inside.

haha wish i was eloquent :lol:

[QUOTE=Flower Dance]It's better than ToT.
ToT is full of wank and is basically heavy songs, minus Vacant of course. Octavarium has many different styles on it and each song sounds different to the last which is one of the reasons why I love it.[/QUOTE]

The jam-fest is partly what ruined Sacrificed Sons. There was no kinds of wankage neccesary for that song at all. The verses and chorus melodies are probably some of the most beautiful music DT has ever written and then they just start jamming as a breakdown. All the emotion is taken right out of it. It's bad decisions like that that make me not be as big of a fan of DT as I could be. There's songs earlier in the album that are clearly a songwriting-first mentality, but Sacrificed Sons makes me question what they really want to accomplish in their songs. Not to mention the lyrics sound like they were written by a five year old.

sacrificed sons was written by james labrie haha.
you can think of the heavy breakdown section (i quite like it...esp. the pinch harmonic part :]) as like...the feelings of rage felt when it happened?

haha just trying to justify it somehow :]

The lyrics are about 9/11...I can't see what problem you have with them.

[quote]Walls are closing
Anxiously
Channel surfing
Frantically

Burning City
Smoke and fire
Planes we're certain
Faith inspired

No clues
A complete surprise
Who'll be
Coming home tonight

Heads all turning
Towards the sky
Towers crumble
Heroes die

Who would wish this on our people
And proclaim that His will be done
Scriptures they heed have misled them
All praise their Sacrificed Sons
All praise their Sacrificed Sons

Teach them
What to think and feel
Your ways
So enlightening

Words they preach
I can't relate
If God's true Love
Are acts of Hate

Who would wish this on our people
And proclaim that His will be done
Scriptures they heed have misled them
All praise their Sacrificed Sons
All praise their Sacrificed Sons

God on High
Our mistakes
Will mankind be extinct?
There's no time, time to waste
Who serves the truth
For Heavens' sake[/quote]

Those are vomit-worthy. There's nothing wrong with simplistic lyrics, but when they are like that, it just makes me cringe.

[QUOTE=YouGottaBeCrazy]Those are vomit-worthy. There's nothing wrong with simplistic lyrics, but when they are like that, it just makes me cringe.[/QUOTE]
I'm still confused at what your problem is with it!

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=hXEiNJN2Ws4&search=dream%20theater[/url]

LMFAO!!!

how are those lyrics 'vomit-worthy' :confused:

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=evTTHS9hwvU&search=john%20petrucci[/url]

heres number two

funniest thing is the WORLD

feel bad they make fun of petrucci tho

Well, not really...they just say how awsomely good he is.

yea #2 was the best :]

Those Petrucci's videos are funny, I don't know if someone already saw this one.
[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=hywld4xFHiM&mode=suggested_all&search=john%20petrucci[/url]

yea theres' 3 of em now :]
i think it's a combination of making fun of him and praising him

[QUOTE=Atica]I agree with you, but that CD is not as good as IW and ToT.[/QUOTE]

Agreed except it was a bit better than ToT

[quote=ghettoeddo]
but because you personally cannot see how ugliness and anger are attractive...that clouds your own "objectivity" so to speak. in the same way that i can't understand why people would listen to death metal/black metal w/ lyrics abot sodomizing dead babies or corpses...it's still quite obvious taht the genres have their avid followers and supporters for a reason. [/quote] I never proclaimed that my opinion is a universal truth. Although I do not consider myself as an expert when it comes to analyzing music, I am well aware of its subjectivity.

Now please understand that to me, beauty and beautiful emotion is very important in music. When used in contrast with beauty, ugliness and anger can make the music infinitely more enjoyable to my own subjective concious mind. At times I can stomach completely anger-ridden music, but this is only during times where I zone out, and do not pay full attention to the music.

Would I profess that my opinion comes closer to truthful analysation than other subjective opinions? Well yes, as I believe I can see that music is entirely subjective whereas many can't. I am aware of my own ignorance, whereas many aren't.


[quote=ghettoeddo]someone also said over-composing is the death of emotion. i must wholeheartedly disagree with such a blanket statement.
there seems to be a general consensus that emotion = simplicity while complexity = overly technical wanking.[/quote] Ah, no no. I think you misread this statement made by another. When one says 'over-composing is the death of emotion', it does not necessitate that emotion = simplicity, complexity = lack of emotion. In music to date, we have seen a greater amount of songs using simplicity to portray emotion, rather than complex songs. This does not mean simple = more emotionally powerful. It means that we haven't yet reached our potential in terms of emotion in complex patterns.

Now in the case of Dream Theater, the term over-composing and and the term complex could both be applied, at least in my subjective opinion. It is not because they are technically complex that I feel they lack emotion, it is because for the most part they appear to focus more on the technical aspect of the song, rather than the emotion. At times, the emotion becomes blanketed under a pointless layer of unneeded complexity. You could point out some songs where powerful emotion is achieved by them, but ultimately their emotion often plays second-fiddle to unneeded complexity in my mind.

And for that, I shall never become a dedicated fan of their music to date.

[QUOTE=ghettoeddo]yea theres' 3 of em now :]
i think it's a combination of making fun of him and praising him[/QUOTE]

I love the third one...

"I usually practiced about...63 hours a day or so. I managed to warp back in time by playing 400 notes a second so I could get all my practicing in. I live on a diet of greens and small mammals." :lol:

[QUOTE=Element of LED 435][url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=hXEiNJN2Ws4&search=dream%20theater[/url]

LMFAO!!![/QUOTE]

Haha 2nd one was the best tho

[I]"You can start at about 10, but you probably couldnt do anymore. you'd just stop, put your guitar in your bag and quit"[/I]

:lol:

[QUOTE=Lord Abortion]I'm still confused at what your problem is with it![/QUOTE]

They're so rediculously cheesy. They look like they were written by an 2nd grader. It's like a sorry excuse for something poetic.

I thought Sacrificed Sons was a great song

okay

I think it has its pro's and cons

I agree, I didn't particularly like the lyrics but the songwriting (instruments) were damn good

[QUOTE=YouGottaBeCrazy]They're so rediculously cheesy. They look like they were written by an 2nd grader. It's like a sorry excuse for something poetic.[/QUOTE]

Do sorta agree with you on that one. I love James' melodies in that one, though. Still not one of my favorite songs on Octavarium, but it was cool live.

Can't wait to see it live on the new DVD

[QUOTE=Liberi]I never proclaimed that my opinion is a universal truth. Although I do not consider myself as an expert when it comes to analyzing music, I am well aware of its subjectivity.

Now please understand that to me, beauty and beautiful emotion is very important in music. When used in contrast with beauty, ugliness and anger can make the music infinitely more enjoyable to my own subjective concious mind. At times I can stomach completely anger-ridden music, but this is only during times where I zone out, and do not pay full attention to the music.

Would I profess that my opinion comes closer to truthful analysation than other subjective opinions? Well yes, as I believe I can see that music is entirely subjective whereas many can't. I am aware of my own ignorance, whereas many aren't.[/QUOTE]
fair enough fair enough...i too realize that music is subjective and there is almost no universal truth/objective truth out there. dream theater happens to be my favorite band at the moment, so i'm obviously gonna support and defend them to the best of my ability, which is...pretty small im sure.

[QUOTE=liberi]Ah, no no. I think you misread this statement made by another. When one says 'over-composing is the death of emotion', it does not necessitate that emotion = simplicity, complexity = lack of emotion. In music to date, we have seen a greater amount of songs using simplicity to portray emotion, rather than complex songs. This does not mean simple = more emotionally powerful. It means that we haven't yet reached our potential in terms of emotion in complex patterns.

Now in the case of Dream Theater, the term over-composing and and the term complex could both be applied, at least in my subjective opinion. It is not because they are technically complex that I feel they lack emotion, it is because for the most part they appear to focus more on the technical aspect of the song, rather than the emotion. At times, the emotion becomes blanketed under a pointless layer of unneeded complexity. You could point out some songs where powerful emotion is achieved by them, but ultimately their emotion often plays second-fiddle to unneeded complexity in my mind.

And for that, I shall never become a dedicated fan of their music to date.[/QUOTE]
if that's what you think, then more power to you :smash: i personally think almost every song has its thought-out emotional aspect of it too. even pure wankage songs like this dying soul...there are some bearable parts.

i too hate just shred shred shred 17/16 19/16 keyboard solo seemingly without any point. maybe not to the extent of many people, because i obviously enjoy DT lots...but i can always find something expressive in their long instrumental breakdowns. all in all, i guess it just comes down to this...i can appreciate their unneeded complexity to a point where it's needed for me and me only.

Some of the tracks from Derek Sherinians new CD are posted on his website

[url]http://www.dereksherinian.com/home.html[/url]

Quite cool stuff actually