Heres an interesting article i found regarding Wattage of Speakers.
The reason im posting this, is cause its was a mistake i kinda made when buying my speakers and amp, ie. thinking of just the wattage.. and hope it helps others currently shopping around for speakers. Also im bit bored :)

"Wattage Ratings:
Often, consumers are attracted to and impressed by speakers that can handle the largest amount of wattage. However, wattage is just one factor to consider among many. Just because a speaker can handle more wattage does not necessarily mean that it will play louder or sound better.

To find out the real story, one needs to consider the sensitivity specification together with the wattage rating. The sensitivity specification basically states how much sound comes out for a given input (analogous to a miles-per-gallon rating for a car). The sensitivity spec is determined by the manufacturer, and often takes the following form: "x" dB / 1 watt / 1 meter. "x" is the sound level in dB, and may be anywhere from about 85 to 105 dB, depending upon the speaker model (a spec in the low to mid 90s is common). The spec is determined (at the vendor's factory) by driving the speaker with 1 watt of electrical energy and measuring the acoustic output at a distance of one meter (using a calibrated microphone). There are a number of variations in measurement procedures due to the variety of speaker models, too many details to cover at this time.

So, what does this all mean? Consider two speakers, Model A and Model B. Model A has a wattage rating of 200 watts and a sensitivity rating of 101dB/W/M. Model B has a wattage rating of 600 watts and has a sensitivity rating of 97 dB/W/M. The maximum output from Model A (with 200 W input) is 124 dB; the maximum output of Model B (with 600 W input) is 124.8 dB (most people would not be able to hear a 0.8 dB difference in sound level). So, as can be seen from the numbers, Model A and Model B have nearly identical maximum output, even though Model B can handle three times as much power! (I haven't gone into mathematical details of how I came up with the maximum numbers... a topic for another day). It is interesting to note however... for top end speakers (of the same type), the maximum output of them are all similar. In other words, speakers that handle a lot of power often have lower sensitivity numbers. Speakers with the highest sensitivity numbers typically can't handle as much power. You are not likely to find a speaker than can both handle a ton of power and also have a high sensitivity rating. Amplifier power is relatively costly, so speakers that are more efficient (generate more sound with a smaller input) are generally desired so long as you are satisfied with the sound characteristic.

CONCLUSION: DON"T SELECT A SPEAKER BASED ON WATTAGE RATING ALONE! As we saw in the above example, two speakers that (to the unknowing) might seem much different actually put out nearly the same amount of sound. Model B requires a much more powerful amplifier to get the same maximum output; powerful amplifiers are certainly available but weigh more and cost more!"

The link: [url]http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/spkr.htm[/url]
there is so much more cool info here regarding pa speakers, ie. difference between 4ohm and 8ohm speakers, quality difference, and more on sensitivity etc.. hope it helps
cheers,
steve

i have a question about that though. if say a 400w speaker had the same decibal rating n all that as a 200w speaker, could you run 2-200w speakers through a 800w mixer, because theyre just as loud as having 2-400w speakers? and also, doesnt the mixer itself have alot to do with how loud the system is?

i was actually just looking into what you said, and i found a 500w speaker with 91.5 db rating, and then a 400w speaker with a 95 db rating, and myband is actually getting the 400w speakers. would that be good? It's gonna be for decent sized shows, we're getting a 800w mixer, and then 2 of the 400w speakers.

also, right now we have an 80w system that has 2-50w speakers taht are rated at 94 db. so does that mean that the 800w system wont be any louder really?

[QUOTE=devildriver421]could you run 2-200w speakers through a 800w mixer, because theyre just as loud as having 2-400w speakers?[/QUOTE] No, because the power from the amp could be too much for the speakers, and may damage them. (depending on the ohm ratings)
[QUOTE=devildriver421]i was actually just looking into what you said, and i found a 500w speaker with 91.5 db rating, and then a 400w speaker with a 95 db rating, and myband is actually getting the 400w speakers. would that be good? It's gonna be for decent sized shows, we're getting a 800w mixer, and then 2 of the 400w speakers.

also, right now we have an 80w system that has 2-50w speakers taht are rated at 94 db. so does that mean that the 800w system wont be any louder really?[/QUOTE]
The 400 watt speakers would obviously be a better choice. Because of their higher efficiency. Just remember for a 3db difference, it is like half (or double the wattage).
So, full power through those 500 watt speakers would be about as loud as 200 watts through the 400 watt speakers.

Just doing a quick estimate. The maximum output of those speakers off the 80 watt amp may be around 112 dB.
The maximum output of those 400 watt speakers off a suitable amp may be around 124 dB.
It'll be more than twice as loud.

But, just rememeber that amps that are rated to output 400 watts per channel, are usually rated to do this while at 4 ohms.
Many speakers are 8 ohms.
And a 400 watt while at 4 ohms rated output being ran through 8 ohms may be cut down to 200 watts.
So, you can either buy a 4 ohm speaker.
Or buy a poweramp that is rated to output 400 watt while at 8 ohms (800 watts while at 4 ohms).

wow so wait what if something is like 5 db, and then something is 10 db. it seems like it would be twice as loud, but would it? this is kind of confusing, i mean i get it but its just...wierd hah

the 800w mixer we're getting is 4 ohm and the speakers are 8 ohm. so how would that work? [url]http://www.behringer.com/PMH880S/index.cfm?lang=ENG[/url] there it is you can see if im reading wrong or whatever i dont know please

also, i dont think i get the sensitivity thing

For something to be twice as loud. There'll need to be a difference by about 10dB.
This could be equal to 10x the wattage of one amp to another.
Volume levels increase on a logarithmic scale.

That powerd mixer is rated to pump out 2x400 watts while through 4 ohms.
If you are using 8 ohm speaker it'll only be around 2x200 watts.

If you read through the last few pages of this thread you'll probably notice that aussiegnr has been through this all before. He even got the same powered mixer that you are looking at.
It ended up not being enough for his needs.
But it may or may not be enough for you.
It will certainely be better than the 80 watter you've got at the moment. But I'm not too sure how it'll go with gigs and what not.

Speaker efficieny means how good a speaker is at converting power to sound.
Speakers are rated in XdB/1w/1m.
The higher the value of X, the better. But, speakers with high effiencies are expensive.

[QUOTE=devildriver421]wow so wait what if something is like 5 db, and then something is 10 db. it seems like it would be twice as loud, but would it? this is kind of confusing, i mean i get it but its just...wierd hah

the 800w mixer we're getting is 4 ohm and the speakers are 8 ohm. so how would that work? [url]http://www.behringer.com/PMH880S/index.cfm?lang=ENG[/url] there it is you can see if im reading wrong or whatever i dont know please

also, i dont think i get the sensitivity thing[/QUOTE]

Hey i have the exact same mixer.
Ok.. the rating is 2 x 400w @ 4ohms or 2 x 200w @ 8ohms...
Thats what it says in the manual specs, aswell as on the back...

I currently have 2-200w rms Speakers @ 8ohms ... which i use with this mixer... for me not quite loud enough, but it may be good for u.. btw.. the sensitivity of these speakers are about 96db @ 1w/1m...

From what ive read, if u are thinking of getting 8ohm speakers, get something around the 150w rms mark.. as its good to have the amp more powerful for the speakers for great headroom. Basically, by physically having the mains/volume turned all the way up on the amp to match the speaker, u pass distorted signals to the speakers which is bad for the speakers.. this is called clipping.. if this is slightly wrong, correct me chris :)

But basically all u need to know is the amp power should be more than the speaker rms, so that u can get a good volume from the speakers with using only about 1/2 to 3/4 of the amps power... thats what the guy at the PA store told me.. but ive read the same thing here and on other sites.. One site suggests about 200w rms speaker to be powered by a 300-400w amp... for excellent head room..

cause i have 200w rms speakers(8ohms) and a 200w amp(8ohms), it means im never really using all the capability of my speakers rms, since im not gonna crank my amp to clipping levels.. hence i should either get more powerful amp, eg 300-400w rms... or even better:

get 2x 300-350w rms speakers @ 4OHMS... remembering my powered mixer (the same one u have) is capable of handling 2 x 400w @ 4ohms... so that way, id be getting the best use outta my amp... and speakers.
One factor i didnt mention though is the sensitivity rating of the speakers... just as long as they are pretty good, then the 4ohm speakers will be a better choice.

actually while im here.. chris can u please tell me how to calculate the max spl db ill be able to get outta the 2 speakers i have and the ones im about to get, ie:

1. the ones i have and will probably sell: 200w rms @ 8 ohms and sensitivity of 96 db 1w/1m

and

2. the ones im probably gonna get for FOH: 300-350 rms @ 4ohms and sensitivity of 101db 1w/1m.
[url]http://www.musicianswarehouse.com.au/default.aspx?Pg=21&ProductCode=HPS154X[/url]

im guessing that max spl means how loud the speakers can get without damage.. am i right??? and im sure its got to do with watts and sensitivity/efficiency of the speakers right??

Also, I do remember u saying that to compare 4ohms with an 8 ohm speaker id have to deduct about 3 db of the sensitivity, ie. (101 - 3 = 98db).

anyways im guessing that the 4ohm speakers will allow me to get the system quite a bit louder..but im wondering how much... and how to work out the max spl id be able to achieve on each, taking in consideration that id be able to reach the RMS of both speakers.. ie. using the full rms capability of each speaker.

Btw, im pretty sure im still set on getting the mackie powered speakers.. if i can.. or the quest one.. they seem very efficient with high sensitivity and high max spl.. also very lightweight. Id use the powered speakers by themselves for jamming, connecting it to my powered mixer's preamped section...

and during gigs, id attach the 2 x 350w 4 ohm speakers, and used the 2 powered mackie ones for reinforcement or monitors. Most likely the powered speakers will be the louder ones, since they are heaps more expensive... so i could experiment how id used each pair of speakers.... maybe 3 FOH, and 1 for Monitors.. thatd be nice :)

So i guess im selling my 200w rms 8 ohm speakers then hahah..
funny thing was.. i saw a great buy for a Powered AMp on ebay.. it was a Brand New QA 1000 AMPLIFIER .. producing 350w rms at 8ohm.. almost half price.. these seem pretty good..ud know chris
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7326760501&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1[/url]

If i got this.. i would have kept my speakers, and sold my powered mixer.. and just bought a normal unpowered mixer..
btw.. how much do decent un powered mixers cost.. lets say with about 4-6 channels, since thats all id ever need???

jeez.. a short message i was gonna write.... turned out to be another biggen ahahah well hope some of it helps.. sorry for all the questions... i think im in curious mode tnight...
i guess i have to be.. ive promised my self.. no more jamming or giggin until i get my PA sorted out hahaha soon i hope :)

cheers,
steve

alright thanks a lot you guys are great hah. well im having some trouble finding any 400w speakers, that are 400w at 4 ohms. anybody got any ideas for anything under $200? thanks

400w speakers for what eqwuates to about £120? Good luck mate... you will probably have to go used.

what if i got this mixer here and then got a mixer. its 2x700 though so i couldnt run 400w speakers though could i? [URL=http://www.behringer.com/EP1500/index.cfm?lang=ENG]here[/URL]

and by the way, i know its a behringer which have a lower reputation, but we dont need the best quality amp here, our budget is pretty low.

EDIT: in the specs, output power, both driver, it says 4 ohms per channel 400w. so would that be good? i think it meant 2x700w at 2 ohms. and in another spot, it says 450w at 4 ohms, but the kHz is different, i dont know what that is though. would running a 450w per channel through 400w speakers be ok?

EDIT again: i found a different mixer, behringer, but the bigger model, and 450 per channel, would that be ok to run through the 400w speakers? i just wont turn it up all the way

[QUOTE=moaner]400w speakers for what eqwuates to about £120? Good luck mate... you will probably have to go used.[/QUOTE]

we acutlaly found some for $140 each, peaveys too. but theyre 400w at 8 ohm.

$140x2 = $280 > $200

sorry i meant less than 200 each hah im not stupid enough to think i could get any decent speaker for less than 100

Hey, i just recently started a band, and we need a PA system and all that. I've read through a lot of stuff but im extremely confused... If there isnt already a thread for it (I tried searching), would one of you guys who understand all this stuff make a thread or lesson or something that explains this, at least the basic fundamentals?

It would be greatly appreciated

alright i found the whole system we're gonna get, can someone just make sure itll all work out good, and do you think itd be loud enough for shows?
[URL=http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=ENG]power amp[/URL]
[URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/601374/]speakers[/URL] [URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631224/]mixer[/URL]

[QUOTE=GermanGuy4]Hey, i just recently started a band, and we need a PA system and all that. I've read through a lot of stuff but im extremely confused... If there isnt already a thread for it (I tried searching), would one of you guys who understand all this stuff make a thread or lesson or something that explains this, at least the basic fundamentals?

It would be greatly appreciated[/QUOTE]

This [url=http://members.cox.net/pasystem1/]site[/url] has a lot of good info.

"The Phonic SEM 712 2-way Stage Speakers are packed with power handling abilities of up to 300 Watts on Program, 150 Watts on RMS. The SEM 712 features a 12" heavy duty woofer and piezo tweeter"

[IMG] http://www.bormuzik.com.tr/images/phonic/SEM710s--20000.jpg[/IMG]

Sorry about the n00bness but I know nothing about PA systems and live sound. I have the commission to buy stuff with my friends money, as he's setting up a gig place in his basement for the heavy bands in our area.

If we buy two of these and use them as PA speakers along with a poweramp and conventional mixer, I understand that they will deliver 300 watts each? And what's RMS, how come it halfs the wattage?

If I buy two of these does it mean that my power amp needs 300 or 600 watts of possible power to make full use of them when using them in stereo?

RMS is the rated wattage (for example, a 100wRMS speaker would be fine with a poweramp 150wRMS or less). The 300w refers to the peak value (so a 150w amp would probably peak at 300w, dig?)

Bumped.

Thanks Aes, I needed that :)

[QUOTE=devildriver421]alright i found the whole system we're gonna get, can someone just make sure itll all work out good, and do you think itd be loud enough for shows?
[URL=http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=ENG]power amp[/URL]
[URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/601374/]speakers[/URL] [URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631224/]mixer[/URL][/QUOTE]

Hey dude,
ive been doin some research oon that power amp u got.. american and australian sites... also got recommended to a guy at venuemusic.com.au..and asked him... and he told me, as did other us sites and reviews, is that this behringer 2500 power amp is is one of the best amps u can get for that price.. in terms of power (400w - 500w rms @ 8ohm) and in terms of reliability.. apparently very well made with great components but at a cheap price. and infact im pretty sure im gonna get one... ive had enough of goin for the ultra cheap route.. i want a system thats reliable and good quality (not the best,.. but good quality none the less ) and to do that im gonna spend quite a bit. Ill sell my crappy system i have now.. cost me about $1000 Aust all up...

ATM im pretty clear on what components im gonna get or choose from(in Aust dollars at cheapest price ive found including delivery)
1.Power amp: Behringer 2500 = $637
2.Passive speakers: Mackie c300 12" (300w rms at 8 Ohm)=$800 each
or
QUEST QS350 Passive 12" (350w rms @ 8ohm)=$640.00 each
3.Active speakers: Quest QSA300 12" = $840
4.Mixer.. thats the one im researching now... ?????

I could get the following ABCD

A:
I could get the Behringer power amp ($630).. some good passive speakers.. im thinking a pair of Mackie c300 12"(total about $1600 for the pair)... and possibly one Quest QSA300 ($840) for moitor or just rehearsals and all id then need is a mixer.. which is the thing im researching now.. i have no clue as what to get..but ive heard its all bout how many channel one wants..also very good idea to have an xlr output to connect to the active speakers??? im still not clear on that..thisd cost round the $3070 mark all up + a decent mixer (im thinkin extra 200-300).. the key here i want quality mixer without that many channels.

B:
Or the same as above but with the Quest Passive speakers, ie. Behringer power amp ($630) + pair of QUEST QS350 ($1280) for FOH + Quest QSA300 ($840) for monitor = $2750 all up plus a decent mixer as above. Bit cheaper than above.. but i guess its basically up to the difference between those mackies and quest passive speakers.. anyone know much about these speakers... ill do bit more research

With both A and B option.. great thing is that the power amp is quite a bit more powerful than the passive speakers :)

C:
Or ill just stick with 2 or 3 Quest QSA300 Active speakers ($1680 for the pair and ... $2520) + a mixer. All i know is the biggest problem with this idea is finding a mixer which allows for 3 active speakers to be used.. ie 2 as FOH and 1 as monitor, and the number of extention chords id have to use power output. Btw.. having 3 active speakers in a single extention chord(4 outputs lets say)..would this or could this lead to any short circuiting..or should i use seperate outputs..if there are enough in the room??

Well they are my 3 choices at the moment.. soon enough.. my decision will come.
Main questions here:
1. Anyone know if the Passive Mackie c300 12" (300rms) are much better than the cheaper Passive QUEST QS350 12" (350rms)??? Mackies are supposed to be better... sound quality wise.. plus says something bout excellent mids and highs, as in studio monitors and sound distribution...
Btw.. main use for these are for vocals.. and from some PA advice 12" boxes offer great sound for vocals.

2.What kind of mixer do u guys suggest i get.. dont need heaps of channels.. but more into the xlr to active speaker (which ive heard is for better sound and less noice).. um.. also think its a good idea to get mixer with built in effects... infact i think this is very important.. for reverb etc.
also i guess i need some stero inputs for cd player etc..and recording out to pc


3. Stupid question im sure..but i cant find a mixer with and equaliser built in.. to prevent feedback etc... id love to find mixer like a powered mixer... but without the power.. ie.. power amp..+ a mixer with built in effects and equaliser for ease of use.

4. Finally in regards to mixers.. what am i really looking for.. does price really mean better sound.. or is sound more associated with the speakers.. ie. does amp and mixer have much to do with overal sound running through speakers..

thats it.. no more questions... ive had enough an im sure u guys have to... hahaha
All i know.. is Itll all cost quite a bit..but hey.. ive had enough of doing all this research and stuff.. once i get a system.. i dont wanna have to think and waste my time on it anymore, and just get on with jamming n singing lessons and not worry bout the instruments :)

cheers, steve

Ok... now that im sorta getting what i want.. ie. im getting a poweramp, passive speakers for foh, and most likely an active for monitor.. all i now need is to look for a decent mixer...

Anyone know of any mixer that has everything i need.. ie the inputs (dont need that many channels), xlr outputs (apparently better sound) for active speakers and connection to amp.... + the 7band equaliser to help with feedback of monitors.
basically what i want is a powered mixer without the amp.. since amps on powered mixers arent nearly as powerful enough... hence im getting a powered amp seperately.. but also want a mixer.. but with the equaliser included.

heres the only one ive found so far:
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=7330939995&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V#ebayphotohosting[/url]

ie. the Behringer UB1222FX-PRO

Id like something like this.. but i dont need that many channel inputs.. id prefer something much smaller, bout 4-6 inputs, enough outputs for poweramp and xlr output for active speaker/s with the 7 band equaliser included... thatd be perfect...

Has anyone got any ideas ... or links to sites describing what to look for in mixers?? some say low noise etc.. whats the go with that.. i though all were low noise hhaha.. well id be pissed if i heard a hum though the speakers an it was the mixer's or amps fault..... and all the mention bout no. of bus is confusing me..

well off to do some research.. please any help would be much appreciated.
cheers,
steve

Steve, What's wrong with those passive speaker you've got now? I reckon they are pretty good. Or wont they be able to handle enough power for your needs?

You don't necessarily need a seperate XLR output for the active monitors.
It's is advantage of having the XLRs for balanced use. But it is not essential.
You can easilly get away with using 1/4" inch plugs to XLR cables to connect up the powered monitors with.

To connect up the monitors; You'd generally switch the Aux1 sends on your mixer to 'pre-fader' and run the monitors off the Aux1 outputs. In the form of a 1/4" socket.
This way you can use the Aux1 output level control knob to control the loudness of the monitors independantly form the FOH mix, which is done with the main sliders.

That Mixer you linked to in your second post looks pretty much ideal for your needs.
And I think you'd be very hardpressed to find something with fewer inputs but still with the seperate 7 band graphic EQ.
The Mixer I have got is one level down from that one you linked to. It has four XLR inputs, but no 7 band graphic EQ. Otherwise it is somewhat similar.

cool thanks for that chris.
well basically id like the 7 band equaliser in the one package with the mixer.. so all i need is the mixer and amp... not mixer, amp and equaliser..

regarding the passive speakers i have now.. well they are 200w rms.. and the amp im getting is the behringer 2500 which is about 400-500w rms @ 8 ohms..
hence id rather get something round the 300-350w rms speaker range..but a decent quality one aswell.. the quest qs350 or ev100's look good.. and have great sensitivity.. been getting good advice on those.. and the mackie's c300 are supposedly good aswell.. but bit more expensive... but yeah.. im goin for quality..and so far.. look like ill get the 2 x quest qs350 for FOH plus the 1 x Quest qsa300(same as yours ) for monitor... and the amp and mixer.. perfect package i think :)

just looking for the best prices atm..

thanks again..
talk soon..
cheers,
steve

Hi, I've done my best to read through this thread, but my minds turned to mush, i'm sorry. I'm also sorry I'm the drummer, so I dont know anything about the PA side either.but I guess thats why you guys are here ;)

OK, the lead singer of my band has just got hold of this behringer amp

[url]http://www.behringer.com/PMH3000/index.cfm?lang=ENG[/url]

I'm just wondering what Specs we need to be looking at for speakers? we run monitors of a seperate amp, so thats not an issue. Any help would be apreciated thank you :thumb:

p.s. we also still have

Studio Powerhouse 300 Series amp/mixer, which is 300W per side at 4ohms, or 160w at 8ohms.

and an un-named preamp which is stated as only having 100watts

hope this helps you, help me :thumb:

400w RMS a side (thats probably 700W peak a side)

I'm guessing you're running the whole abd through this. You'd certaintly want at least 15" drivers, and maybe 2 speakers each side- bass bins and mid/highs (eg an 18" speaker cab and a 12" cab with horns and tweeter on each side)

It's not adviseable to skimp on speaker quality where youy can help it.

we're not running the entire band through this, it's just vocals, but the old speakers we're currently using for practice have no top end, and are very quiet. :S

would you recomend just the 400w RMS then? or would we need the bins as well?

[QUOTE=kristianwilliams]we're not running the entire band through this, it's just vocals, but the old speakers we're currently using for practice have no top end, and are very quiet. :S

would you recomend just the 400w RMS then? or would we need the bins as well?[/QUOTE]

if you're only running vocals through it, bass bins wouldn't be neccessary.

what kind of guitar amps are you running to keep up with a 400w PA? How on earth do you hear the drums?

I have a feeling your singer might've gone a bit OTT on the wattage.

thats the thing, none of the stuff is that loud. at all. guitars are only on 100watt amps (not sure what level there on) just that we cant hear the vocals that loud. could it be the mic as well? or just the setup we have is wrong??

we use the Studio 300w to run the monitors off. so we're just using the behringer to run the speakers.

ah, you'll be fine. Its good to have a large pa there forwhen you do need more channels and more wattage.