[quote=DemBonz]I heard a fellow forum member describe Evan's music as "white" before. I asked him to explain what it meant, he did, and I thought it was an accurate depiction (this was before I started really listening to him). I liked it, so I started to use it to describe his music. [/quote]So as to avoid confusion, you might try appending "bread" to your "white" in the future.

[quote]And if you want to talk about music inteded for white people, what about Art Tatum? He habitually put in all hus pyrotechnics into his music when he had a white audience, and didn't when he had a black audience. Many of the recordings you hear are simply him trying to make it sound more impressive so that white people will like it (this has been pretty well documented). [/quote] I hadn't heard this. Can you cite at least one of these documents? My favorite Tatum recordings are his blues recordings, possibly primarily intended for black audiences and just as florid.

[quote]Hell, I'd argue that a lot of Miles' music was white.[/quote]Yeah well, Evans and Miles shared an aesthetic, a concern for introspective, lyrical, subtle music and nuance. I'd guess it's the subtlety and nuance that's throwing you. Evans obviously built on the work of Bud Powell, but in his early days he was also very influenced by Horice Silver.

[quote]As for influential pianists, I'd put Evans right behind Duke Ellington and James P. Johnson.[/quote] Ellington was a significant jazz figure, of course, but not as a pianist. As for Johnson, the origins of stride are harder to pin down. Teddy Wilson was certainly a prominant and gifted practitioner. Earl Hines is credited as his precursor.

[quote=zappa]Can't we all just love Evans, Han***** Tyner, Corea, Tatum, Peterson, Monk, Ellington, Powell, Garland, Silver, Jarrett, Byard, Brubeck, Taylor, and Hill equally for different reasons?[/quote] In a word: No.

In any case, the most historically significant and influential rhythm section (and widely regarded as best in its day) was Walter Page, Jo Jones, Freddie Green, and Count Basie. Walter Page's walking, Jo Jones's transfer of the beat to the cymbal, and Basie's left hand were all precursors of bebop. (Modern jazz piano left-hand goes: Basie to Bud Powell to Bill Evans.)

[QUOTE=Ned]and stop with the racist slurs, please. Thank you.[/QUOTE]
Hmm... Ive found words mean krap all. Its when a person looks you in the eyes when theyre saying the words its a problem.. who cares anyway? ;)

But yeh Ned: Bill Evans. And that 'white' sound peeps are referring to is 'classically trained'. :lol: Geezum. Thats hilarious. I beleive that Miles was right on the money getting Bill rather than any other jazz keys player. But thats Miles...

Jazz Standards is indeed my favourite DVD. I never enjoyed Keith's playing until I entered my jazz keys phase.. his technique was waay too percussive for me to begin with. But.. several years later, he is one of the most amazing pianists to traverse this planet.

Anyway:
Tony, Herbie, Ron
Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen
Bill Evans, Percy Heath and Connie... Kay (?)
Paul Chambers Red Garland, Philly Jones
Herbie, Buster and Billy Hart are great too
or Herbie, Buster and Tootie Heath
Herbie (and anyone really!), Eddie Watkins & James Gadson were on the money IMO
tho Herbie, Michael Clark & Paul Jackson rock
Steve Gadd, Herb Bushler & Don Grolnik are good for some cheese

tho my eternal favourite remains as:
Jaco (praise be), Joe Zaiwinul & Peter Erskine

So many awesome Jazz musos. *sigh Love it to bits and pieces.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]....But yeh Ned: Bill Evans. And that 'white' sound peeps are referring to is 'classically trained'. :lol: Geezum. Thats hilarious....[/QUOTE]

The author of what appears to be the only Bill Evans biography ever published, [i]How My Heart Sings[/i], makes rather a big deal of Bill Evans's classical training, but it seems to me that for jazz pianists a modicum of classical training is the rule rather than the exception. I don't suppose Herbie Hancock, who performed a Mozart concerto with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra when he was eleven, counts because he came after Bill Evans, but Teddy Wilson certainly had classical training. Art Tatum had [i]some[/i] classical training. Oscar Peterson had fairly extensive classical training. Dave Brubeck had classical training....and so on.

Sometimes I have to wonder Ned. Because an 'issue' with classical training (if a pianist is .. 'prone to influence' and not strong enough or determined enough to get away from the classical system), is that Classical training polishes away the raw bits - and the raw bits are, IMO, the necessary aspects to Jazz. Ive met plenty of Jazz Pianists who consider themselves 'traditionalists' - in that they have approached Jazz purely withOUT a classical perspective/training - and really, they rock it out. In terms of technique, Classical training would be extremely helpful and beneficial (of course). But technique, whilst helpful, aint the be all and end all. In Jazz Keys where rhythm and percussive treatments (since keys is in the rhythm section) are necessary, IMO a full understanding of rhythm would be, [b]moreso[/b], the requirement. Just a few silly thoughts tho. :)

BTW: Im laughing myself silly about all these references to racism.

Any non-whiteys on here? :lol:

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]Sometimes I have to wonder Ned. Because an 'issue' with classical training (if a pianist is .. 'prone to influence' and not strong enough or determined enough to get away from the classical system), is that Classical training polishes away the raw bits - and the raw bits are, IMO, the necessary aspects to Jazz. Ive met plenty of Jazz Pianists who consider themselves 'traditionalists' - in that they have approached Jazz purely withOUT a classical perspective/training - and really, they rock it out. In terms of technique, Classical training would be extremely helpful and beneficial (of course). But technique, whilst helpful, aint the be all and end all. In Jazz Keys where rhythm and percussive treatments (since keys is in the rhythm section) are necessary, IMO a full understanding of rhythm would be, [b]moreso[/b], the requirement. Just a few silly thoughts tho. :)[/QUOTE]

Well, name some famous jazz pianists (other than Erroll Garner and Thelonius Monk--neither of whom I can stand to listen to) without any classical training then. Boogie woogie is the only related genre I know generally populated by pianists without classical training, but boogie woogie, though related as I said, is not really jazz.

:lol: You are indeed touchy. I almost gotta wonder if youre a girl ;) You dont include Monk because it wouldnt be exactly positive for your argument now.. would it? :lol:

Besides - Did I write that it [i]wasnt[/i] the case? I merely provided a thought on it:

But hey -
Count Basie
Duke
Jelly Roll
Buddy Powell (poor poor Buddy)

And considering the accessibility to, and massive repertoire of Classical music, it would indeed be difficult to find a pianist who hasnt performed at least a few classical tunes (especially the 40s-70s when your earlier examples are establishing themselves). My post referring to the so-called 'traditionalists' are about contemporary musicians, who have many more tunes other than classical, to choose from.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]:lol: You are indeed touchy. I almost gotta wonder if youre a girl ;) [/quote]
Very much the opposite of a girl--but I don't suppose I'd better elaborate.

[quote]You dont include Monk because it wouldnt be exactly positive for your argument now.. would it? :lol:[/quote] Nonsense. I said name non-classically trained jazz pianists other than Garner and Monk because I [i]know[/i] that Garner wasn't and I would be surprised to learn that Monk was--because he seems to have no technique whatsoever. In other words, I want you to name ones I don't already know about. Of course there were [i]some[/i] notable jazz pianists without classical training. My "argument" as you put it, is that Bill Evans with his classical training is closer to the norm than the exception.

[quote]Besides - Did I write that it [i]wasnt[/i] the case? I merely provided a thought on it:[/quote] There's no point in suggesting that non-classically trained jazz pianists are better without any specimens to cite as evidence, and if "better" means "more representative", as it seems to in this case, there needs to be more than a few odd exceptional specimens.

[quote]But hey -
Count Basie
Duke
Jelly Roll
Buddy Powell (poor poor Buddy)[/quote]

Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.

[quote]And considering the accessibility to, and massive repertoire of Classical music, it would indeed be difficult to find a pianist who hasnt performed at least a few classical tunes (especially the 40s-70s when your earlier examples are establishing themselves). [/quote] Teddy Wilson and Art Tatum established themselves in the thirties. Although I didn't mention specifically examples earlier than these, I meant, and mean, all the way back. Scott Joplin was classically trained.

[quote]My post referring to the so-called 'traditionalists' are about contemporary musicians, who have many more tunes other than classical, to choose from.[/QUOTE] Contemporary with what?

[QUOTE=Ned] Nonsense. I said name non-classically trained jazz pianists other than Garner and Monk because I [i]know[/i] that Garner wasn't and I would be surprised to learn that Monk was--because he seems to have no technique whatsoever. In other words, I want you to name ones I don't already know about. Of course there were [i]some[/i] notable jazz pianists without classical training. My "argument" as you put it, is that Bill Evans with his classical training is closer to the norm than the exception. [/quote]

I didnt say that was the case at all. I [i]suggested[/i] a flaw with classical training for jazz pianists that was of my own thinking. And of course it would have been the norm: how do you think musos got networked - at clubs or 'musical groups' eg universities.

[quote]There's no point in suggesting that non-classically trained jazz pianists are better without any specimens to cite as evidence, and if "better" means "more representative", as it seems to in this case, there needs to be more than a few odd exceptional specimens.[/i]
You are interpreting it as 'better'. I dont need to cite examples. [i]Experience[/i] can not be determined from a book. The jazz keys players emerging from today (and I cant suggest any words in books for you to refer to - if you are an active jazz punter, you will already know that this is emerging) are shunning their past classical experience because it has polished the raw edges from their performance and application skills. Ned: do yourself a favour - engage in a chat with a few local jazz key students. Whilst they will say yes - we have had classical training, you will find they are preferring to steer away from it for the moment - for the reasons Ive already stipulated.

[quote]Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.[/quote]
No, they were not classically trained. They were taught to play the piano - but they were not classically trained. They may have been exposed to classical tunes (how can you avoid them when the piano is stilted in its classical traditions) but they were not classically trained. Know how I know? You can hear it in their performance. There is a definite difference in a classically trained pianist and a non-classically trained pianist. Compare Bud to Bill. The touch is the giveaway.

[quote] Contemporary with what?[/QUOTE]
Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means.

BTW If I hadnt known too much about Herbie's classical beginnings, Id have cottoned onto His classical connections just by looking at the last few albums he's released. Kinda obvious. But understandable: playing with an orchestra is absolutely a fine experience - though I doubt he would have had as deep a connection with the orchestra as he did with his bands. Still.. being surrounded in all that sound.. wow.

[QUOTE=Ned] Corea, on the other hand, flitted about here and there and never made a dent.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's logical to say that because everyone in the jazz world knows his name. It's not like he is some obscure person that no one knows. Even though he might be immature in his playing style (not my words) doesn't mean that he didn't make a dent. There a hundred of students out there now who are learning to emulate his style...for better or for worse.

i've never been much of a fan of corea, to be honest, but as you say everybody who listens to jazz knows him. you don't get to be, dare i say, a jazz icon without being an influencial player.

[QUOTE=moogoogaipan]I don't think it's logical to say that because everyone in the jazz world knows his name. It's not like he is some obscure person that no one knows. Even though he might be immature in his playing style (not my words) doesn't mean that he didn't make a dent. There a hundred of students out there now who are learning to emulate his style...for better or for worse.[/QUOTE]

Everybody knows his name from Return to Forever. Does that impress you?

[QUOTE=dj_ando]i've never been much of a fan of corea, to be honest, but as you say everybody who listens to jazz knows him. you don't get to be, dare i say, a jazz icon without being an influencial player.[/QUOTE]

A name is different from an icon. Corea is no icon.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]No, they were not classically trained. They were taught to play the piano - but they were not classically trained. They may have been exposed to classical tunes (how can you avoid them when the piano is stilted in its classical traditions) but they were not classically trained. Know how I know? You can hear it in their performance. There is a definite difference in a classically trained pianist and a non-classically trained pianist. Compare Bud to Bill. The touch is the giveaway.[/quote] In other words, you don't know at all. Bill Evans and Bud Powell were classically trained [i]pianists[/i], not trained [i]monkies[/i]: They played the way they played deliberately, in order to achieve the musical effect they thought appropriate, and if you had read this entire thread, you would have noticed that I'd already pointed out how much Bill Evans's early style (still [i]after[/i] his classical training) differed from his mature (late fifties and beyond) style. His early style was much closer to Powell's.


[quote]Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means.[/quote] In other words, you think [i]contemporary[/i] means [i]modern[/i]. You're wrong. (What "nosing through books"? [i]How My Heart Sings[/i]?)

[quote]BTW If I hadnt known too much about Herbie's classical beginnings, Id have cottoned onto His classical connections just by looking at the last few albums he's released. [/quote] Or so you claim.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, I'd overlooked the phrase "as you write on here". This is hilarious. Sorry, it's all off the top of me 'ead--otherwise I'd have checked up on Ellington's and Basie's background. Solipsist projection is the only explanation I can come up with (off the top of me 'ead) for "as you write on here"--bearing in mind especially that I'm addressing someone who claims to have a graduate degree in music from a reputable institution (whatever it may be) and doesn't even know what the **** an augmented second is.

[QUOTE=spastic]Not that this is an answer to the best rhythm section, but I was very very impressed when I saw Dave Holland play with Steve Nelson (vibes) and Nate Smith (drums). They were incredibly tight and innovative. Most of the time I found myself listening to them instead of the soloist (although if Chris Potter had been there it would have been different). I hope these guys keep playing together[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes! I saw them about a month ago, and they simply blew me away... best show I've been to for a long time. Especially Nate Smith was incredible.

[QUOTE=Ned]
Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.
[/QUOTE] Jelly roll morton was classically trained. Basie and Ellington where not classically trained but they picked up a lot from looking at stride pianists play.

I was under the impression Jelly Roll was not classically trained. Unless there is someone about able to train a 10 year old in a whorehouse?

But then again - Jelly said so much krap even claiming that HE invented Jazz that anything he has to say would be questionable.

[QUOTE=Ned]Ah, I'd overlooked the phrase "as you write on here". This is hilarious. Sorry, it's all off the top of me 'ead--otherwise I'd have checked up on Ellington's and Basie's background. Solipsist projection is the only explanation I can come up with (off the top of me 'ead) for "as you write on here"--bearing in mind especially that I'm addressing someone who claims to have a graduate degree in music from a reputable institution (whatever it may be) and doesn't even know what the **** an augmented second is.[/QUOTE]
Do you think I truly care?

Ned - honest to God: I can tell from the venom dripping from your brain cells: you wish you had my life. You really do. I believe in fostering a caring and positive community and you, in your jealousy and bitterness, hide behind your computer to try and drag the world down to your base level.

Scales are something I no longer care about - seeing as Ive graduated from some rather respected insitutions with degrees. :lol: Who, but unestablished wannabe musicians care about scales? Whilst I love them, theyre so ingrained that is not longer matters. Get to that point honey.
If I get tiny insignificant things wrong, it doesnt matter to me because its all about the bigger picture.

And so far - I appear to be the only female taking you on.
I already know how ugly you are - youve proven it with your bitter and sorry attitude. :lol: