staiway solo is Am pentatonic with half in the common box position

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]
I have listened to several songs by both Hendrix and Zeppelin. That said, I'm yet no expert. If I have a favourite guitar solo of each it must be All Along The Watchtower by Hendrix and Stairway To Heaven by Page. If I had to set the two of these up against each other, I think Stairway... gets my vote.
[/QUOTE]

First, I think there is some justification for a Hendrix thread in this forum because at the time of his death Hendrix was on the verge of collaborating with Gil Evans and he had been hanging out with and trading ideas with Miles Davis. Moreover, even though Hendrix never quite managed to venture into fusion, he still strongly influenced it. There really is no justification for a Jimmy Page thread here, and this thread, I'm sorry to report, is in some danger of becoming one. The only excuse I can think of to discuss Jimmy Page in this forum is to contrast him with Hendrix in order to show just how important Hendrix was, to make him a foil for Hendrix. If we were to achieve a consensus that Page was superior to Hendrix or equal to Page or even separate-but-equal (equal in his own sphere) to Hendrix, then this excuse would immediately collapse.

Second, I think you've picked pretty good examples considering that they both involve the same chord progression. On the other hand, "Stairway to Heaven" is a long song, and the Page solo occurs just where it needs a lift, and this may unfortunately distract us as critics. Robert Plant, I think, deserves credit for the song itself. (Maybe he wrote it in collaboration with Page; I don’t remember.) We might say analogously that Bob Dylan deserves credit for "All Along the Watchtower", the song itself, but that's not really a fair comparison because there's not nearly as much to Watchtower; Watchtower the song doesn’t really distract us. Hendrix's solos and rhythm playing in Watchtower demonstrate his ability to intimate, to suggest more than he actually plays. They demonstrate his great sound and his rhythmic vitality. Page's solo in Heaven gets the job done; it's okay; it's perfectly adequate, but it is certainly not transcendent and Page’s tone quality is not very good. If it were not for the song in which it occurs, I wouldn't see any reason to listen to it twice.

[QUOTE=We No Speak]
BTW - Hendrix is the hardest working dead guy is the music business. He's been dead for 35 years and still comes out with a new album every year. Not bad...[/QUOTE]

Precisely. He's even more posthumously prolific than Hemingway.

listen to Spirit-Taurus

[QUOTE=Ned]First, I think there is some justification for a Hendrix thread in this forum because at the time of his death Hendrix was on the verge of collaborating with Gil Evans and he had been hanging out with and trading ideas with Miles Davis. Moreover, even though Hendrix never quite managed to venture into fusion, he still strongly influenced it. There really is no justification for a Jimmy Page thread here, and this thread, I'm sorry to report, is in some danger of becoming one. The only excuse I can think of to discuss Jimmy Page in this forum is to contrast him with Hendrix in order to show just how important Hendrix was, to make him a foil for Hendrix. If we were to achieve a consensus that Page was superior to Hendrix or equal to Page or even separate-but-equal (equal in his own sphere) to Hendrix, then this excuse would immediately collapse.

Second, I think you've picked pretty good examples considering that they both involve the same chord progression. On the other hand, "Stairway to Heaven" is a long song, and the Page solo occurs just where it needs a lift, and this may unfortunately distract us as critics. Robert Plant, I think, deserves credit for the song itself. (Maybe he wrote it in collaboration with Page; I don’t remember.) We might say analogously that Bob Dylan deserves credit for "All Along the Watchtower", the song itself, but that's not really a fair comparison because there's not nearly as much to Watchtower; Watchtower the song doesn’t really distract us. Hendrix's solos and rhythm playing in Watchtower demonstrate his ability to intimate, to suggest more than he actually plays. They demonstrate his great sound and his rhythmic vitality. Page's solo in Heaven gets the job done; it's okay; it's perfectly adequate, but it is certainly not transcendent and Page’s tone quality is not very good. If it were not for the song in which it occurs, I wouldn't see any reason to listen to it twice.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Page's solo in Stairway, while enjoyable, can't begin to compare with Hendrix's best solos. Or not even solos, just all-around playing. That's the thing- with Hendrix, there was no difference between rhythm and lead in terms of greatness. He found a way to be extremely innovative and impressive in both areas. However, Page's rhythm work is far from extrordinary and though he made up a few decent riffs, Tony Iommi was a much better rhythm guitarist in my opinion. Page's solo in STH is really just average, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.

"I think comparing Page and Hendrix is not a fair comparison for one simple reason, Hendrix changed the world and Page didn't. "

If you want to compare influence, certainly Hendrix was more influentical, however, that is not in anyway to dimish the imeasurable influence of Page.

"(Maybe he wrote it in collaboration with Page; I don’t remember.)"

Plant wrote the lyrics himself, but as far as I know the music goes to Page. Though it is possible both Jones and Bonham had some hand. I'm not sure off hand, I'd have to look it up.

"I agree. Page's solo in Stairway, while enjoyable, can't begin to compare with Hendrix's best solos."

Certainly, I agree. But why compare Jimi's best with Jimmy's (heheh) mediocre?

"Page's solo in STH is really just average, so I don't get what all the fuss is about."

Probably because STH is one of the first songs new Zep fans hear, and to a beginer guitarists, that solo is quite impressive, thus it generates a great deal of buzz.

Both are absolutely amazing guitarists in their own right.

I prefer not to delve into comparisons being as I like both Hendrix & Page.
Both were great players ahead of their time. :thumb:

Others:
Peter Green *Early Fleetwood Mac & his solo careers

Robin Trower

Frank Marino *Mahogany Rush (***has some of the fastest fingers I have ever heard!)

Johnny Winter

Davis Gilmour *Pink Floyd & his solo careers

Carlos Santana

[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]Both are absolutely amazing guitarists in their own right.[/QUOTE]

You seem to have changed your tune here. Be that as it may, the remark you really need to address is this one, the one you've conspicuously ignored:

"There really is no justification for a Jimmy Page thread here, and this thread, I'm sorry to report, is in some danger of becoming one. The only excuse I can think of to discuss Jimmy Page in this forum is to contrast him with Hendrix in order to show just how important Hendrix was, to make him a foil for Hendrix. If we were to achieve a consensus that Page was superior to Hendrix or equal to Page or even separate-but-equal (equal in his own sphere) to Hendrix, then this excuse would immediately collapse."

You will allow, I hope, that Jimmy Page had nothing whatsoever to do with jazz (or funk). You will allow further, I hope, that this is a jazz (and funk) forum. How can you possibly justify going on and on about about Page then? (Remember that you're the one who brought up Page in the first place.)

[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]"I think comparing Page and Hendrix is not a fair comparison for one simple reason, Hendrix changed the world and Page didn't. "

If you want to compare influence, certainly Hendrix was more influentical, however, that is not in anyway to dimish the imeasurable influence of Page.

"(Maybe he wrote it in collaboration with Page; I don’t remember.)"

Plant wrote the lyrics himself, but as far as I know the music goes to Page. Though it is possible both Jones and Bonham had some hand. I'm not sure off hand, I'd have to look it up.

"I agree. Page's solo in Stairway, while enjoyable, can't begin to compare with Hendrix's best solos."

Certainly, I agree. But why compare Jimi's best with Jimmy's (heheh) mediocre?

"Page's solo in STH is really just average, so I don't get what all the fuss is about."

Probably because STH is one of the first songs new Zep fans hear, and to a beginer guitarists, that solo is quite impressive, thus it generates a great deal of buzz.

Both are absolutely amazing guitarists in their own right.[/QUOTE]

but while hendrix WAS an amazing guitarist, page was a good guitarist. theres a difference there. what would you say page's best solo is? since ive been loving you? achille's last stand? certainly not the slop-fest that is heartbreaker. whichever solo you pick, it still wont stand up to hendrix's.

ps: ned, would you say a hendrix thread belongs here? i wouldnt.

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]ned, would you say a hendrix thread belongs here? i wouldnt.[/QUOTE]

I would and DID say, "I think there is some justification for a Hendrix thread in this forum because at the time of his death Hendrix was on the verge of collaborating with Gil Evans and he had been hanging out with and trading ideas with Miles Davis. Moreover, even though Hendrix never quite managed to venture into fusion, he still strongly influenced it."

I think that Hendrix is fair game...

He was a major catalyst for what Miles Davis, Tony Williams, John McLaughlin, etc. did from '69 on... he's been a huge influence on some of the best talent in jazz guitar, from David Fiuczynski to Sonny Sharrock to John Scofield to NGuyen Le to Kurt Rosenwinkel, etc. And finally, his music has been interpreted by personalities as diverse as Gil Evans and Dave Murray, as well as several of the aforementioned.

[QUOTE=ok lateralus]Page's solo in STH is really just average, so I don't get what all the fuss is about.[/QUOTE]

Technically, it might not be the most challenging one, but Page obviously did a couple of right things concerning this solo. Even though the technique is not neccessarily the best, he put together a well-suiting collection of notes. There is one certain note in the beginning phrase of the solo which I have always reacted on. From what I remember, I think it was F, given the solo as a whole is in Am. This F note gives the melody an extra flavour, compared to the sound one would get sticking to the Am Pentatonic scale only. So, Page succeeded on the note choice.

Another detail, be it a pro- or con- for Page, is the way the song builds up. The way the song explodes into a solo exactly when it does, fits perfectly. One might say that the song screams for a solo at this point. Then again, based on the same premises, there will be quite high expactations for a solo after such a build up. Finally, there's the question whether Page succeeded or not. Well, some may describe the solo as average. I, on my hand, would say it's above average.

the first note bent D a full step which is a E which is in Am penta scale ,the fifth of A and not a new or interesting note choice

To Ned: I thought that Blues was an accepted genre in here as well? If so then Page qualifies IMO.

[QUOTE=EmergencyRoom]To Ned: I thought that Blues was an accepted genre in here as well? If so then Page qualifies IMO.[/QUOTE]
so would the Beatles Guns N Roses etc

neither of those were really blues bands. you realize that right?

you shouldve used cream, the jeff beck group, or stevie ray vaughan. especially seeing as how all mentioned above walked the line between blues and rock.

Man, Hendrix in Jazz and Funk, you just can't hide anymore from this guy...:(

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]neither of those were really blues bands. you realize that right?

you shouldve used cream, the jeff beck group, or stevie ray vaughan. especially seeing as how all mentioned above walked the line between blues and rock.[/QUOTE]
Neither was Led Zeppellin

[QUOTE=jam9383]Neither was Led Zeppellin[/QUOTE]
i would classify zeppelin as blues/rock. and seeing as how jazz/rock belongs in the jazz forum, i suppose blues rock belongs here.

they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own.

"they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own."

I'm not sure they stole songs anymore than EC or any other major act that covers songs does, but whatever.

Also, I don't like calling Led Zeppelin blues/rock. Theres so much more than just that. Theres folk, reggae and even jazz infused in their music.

[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]"they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own."

I'm not sure they stole songs anymore than EC or any other major act that covers songs does, but whatever.

Also, I don't like calling Led Zeppelin blues/rock. Theres so much more than just that. Theres folk, reggae and even jazz infused in their music.[/QUOTE]
you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it.

and they really only dabbled in those other genres. i would still overridingly call them blues/rock.

"you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it."

Interesting. Can you tell me more. What are some examples?

[QUOTE=dumbassdrummer]"you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it."

Interesting. Can you tell me more. What are some examples?[/QUOTE]

[B]How Many More Times[/B] - They took many blues lyrics and threw them all together, including some from Howlin' Wolf.

[B]You Shook Me/I Can't Quit You Baby[/B] - Both of these songs were written by Willie Dixon. He even brought up a lawsuit against them for using them without his consent.

[B]Dazed And Confused[/B] - Originally written by Jake Holmes, claimed to be written by Jimmy Page.

[B]Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You[/B] - An English folk song or something, credited mostly to Jimmy page.

[B]Stairway To Heaven[/B] - Claimed to have an extremely similar chord progression to "Taurus", a song by the band Spirit. I've never heard "Taurus", so I can't vouch for this one.

There are many others, but it's too late and I can't think straight right now. Maybe tomorrow.

EDIT: You can read more about it [URL=http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html]here[/URL].

I knew Dixon wrote some of those songs, he get's credit now so I guess I never put it together. Thanks for the info and the link.

[QUOTE=jam9383]the first note bent D a full step which is a E which is in Am penta scale ,the fifth of A and not a new or interesting note choice[/QUOTE]

I see, but I did not mean the very first note. I meant, from what I can remember, a note in the first phrase. I'll have a listen to refresh my mind.

05:56 - there's the note I thought spiced it up. Now, I'll admit that the reason why I reacted, might be that around the time I first listened to it, I also listened to many other classic rock bands whose solos were - almost exclusively - based on the Pentatonic minor scale, nothing more. Thus, the Stairway To Heaven solos acted as a refresher compared to what I was used to.

[QUOTE=magicbus]For Page: Misty Mountain Hop, D'Yer Mak'er

For Hendrix: The Wind Cries Mary, May This Be Love

I'm having trouble thinking of more, but I'll post them if I can think of them.[/QUOTE]

Great examples you provded there. Exactly the type I was looking for.

Regarding these exact song examples, Page seemed to have a somewhat simpler approach to the songs, yet it worked perfectly I think.

Hendrix' contributions were a little more complex, and a bit more technical. However, Page was equally good on creating something that suits the musical setting. While Hendrix had a slightly more nuanced approach, I don't know whether it added that much more to the song, compared to Page's examples in this case.

Anyway, I got what I wanted. Great atmospheres in all 4 songs. Thank you, and feel free to give more examples in the same vein.

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]you would be wrong. they would take lyrics and some guitar parts without crediting the original writer. there's been lots of talk about it. [/QUOTE]

So they are right along acts like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf?

[QUOTE=DemBonez]So they are right along acts like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf?[/QUOTE]
no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]i would classify zeppelin as blues/rock. and seeing as how jazz/rock belongs in the jazz forum, i suppose blues rock belongs here.

they had heavy blues influence, going so far as to steal blues songs and pass them off as their own.[/QUOTE]
my point was that you couldnt go that far as to consider led zeppellin to be in jazz forum because you could go on with associating and include any band in forum like GNR jazz-Blues-Rock-GNR

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?[/QUOTE]
either way muddy and wolf wouldnt try to claim credit for it unlike Page , Taurus does sound like Stairway

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]no, because muddy and wolf would credit the writer (usually willie dixon)?[/QUOTE]

You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.

[QUOTE=jam9383]my point was that you couldnt go that far as to consider led zeppellin to be in jazz forum because you could go on with associating and include any band in forum like GNR jazz-Blues-Rock-GNR[/QUOTE]

I don't know about Guns 'N Roses (however it's spelled) in particular, but I strongly agree with your basic point. Sure, both jazz and Jimmy Page used blues as points of departure, but to say that therefore Jimmy Page belongs in the jazz forum is like playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Wow, you know what's so amazing about all this? It started out as a Jimmy Hendrix thread. Now we're discussing blues and rock artists who stole other people's songs. :lol:

I know. I mean, I like Led Zep an all, but I'm sick and ****ing tired of people bringing Jimmy Page into everything.

Well, as this thread was created in order to get a few answers about Hendrix and the great rhythm/groove of his band; Let me add that I hear a similar thing going on in most - yes - Rage Against The Machine songs.

You can argue whether this and that artist or band should be discussed in this forum, but when bands got qualities which I associate with, let's say funk, I feel like asking a question. I have always considered the groove of Hendrix's music funky, yet I see that he does not play funk in its pure form, not at all.

Some bands may have a groovy approach, by nature. In Rage Against The Machine's case, it sounds like 4/4, but very... swinging; not as 'standard' as the 4/4 I hear in many other songs. The last song of the mentioned band I noticed this feel in was Snakecharmer. Bullet In The Head and Killing In The Name Of... are other examples.

Any comments?

(I hope you don't flame me for bringing in bands 'outside' of the funk/jazz genre, strictly speaking)

[QUOTE=DemBonez]You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.[/QUOTE]
same tune as in same chord progression? at least he changed the lyrics. i dont know. you clearly know more about blues than i do as i rarely dip into pre-war blues. you learn something every day, huh?

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]
Another detail, be it a pro- or con- for Page, is the way the song builds up. The way the song explodes into a solo exactly when it does, fits perfectly. One might say that the song screams for a solo at this point. Then again, based on the same premises, there will be quite high expactations for a solo after such a build up. Finally, there's the question whether Page succeeded or not.[/QUOTE]

I'd already covered ALL of that. There's a minimum the solo has to accomplish (which, in contradistinction, Carlos Alomar on Bowie's "Loving the Alien" fails to accomplish in analogous but more difficult circumstances). Once that threshold is reached the song supports the soloist and makes his job easier.

[QUOTE=DemBonez]You are joking, right? Blues musicians of the post-war era had the nasty habit of taking a pre-war song, changing the title of the track, changing the chord progression, slapping their name on the writing credits, and riding it to the bank. Maybe you can get the songs "I Asked For Water (She Gave Me Gasoline)" written by Howlin' Wolf in 1962 and "Cool Drink of Water Blues" written by Tommy Johnson in 1929 and explain to me how Howlin' Wolf wrote the exact same tune with different lyrics? It has become a practice in the blues making most of the classic songs undefinable when looking for who wrote them.[/QUOTE]

That's the way the blues works, musicians recycle each others stuff.

[QUOTE=Ned]I'd already covered ALL of that. There's a minimum the solo has to accomplish (which, in contradistinction, Carlos Alomar on Bowie's "Loving the Alien" fails to accomplish in analogous but more difficult circumstances). Once that threshold is reached the song supports the soloist and makes his job easier.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Could you tell a bit more about the Bowie song? Compare it to Stairway To Heaven.

[QUOTE=PinkFreud]same tune as in same chord progression? at least he changed the lyrics. i dont know. you clearly know more about blues than i do as i rarely dip into pre-war blues. you learn something every day, huh?[/QUOTE]

The guitar part is the same lick as the Tommy Johnson's song, but Howlin' decided to remove the chord progression. And yes, as stated already that this has become common practice in the blues. While blues musicians "pay homage" by taking credit for other's songs, rock musicians "plagiarize" for doing the same thing. The blues is a strange genre in that way people apraise it.