[QUOTE=Kazass]in respons to Popup-Box's question: Renegades of Funk for example definately isn't swing rhythm. It's weird, because i've met a lot of people who have deeply trouble with this swing rhythm but to me it's totaly normal. I can hear it and say straight away if it's swing rhythm or straight. It's so simple to me to hear the difference. I always thought everyone heras it aswell....O_O[/QUOTE]

I also mostly know when I hear a straight 4/4 rhythm. And I do notice when there is shuffle or swing instead of 4/4, but I obviously do not understand the difference between shuffle and swing.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Well, how would the last 1/4 of a shuffled 16th rhythm be, then?
[/QUOTE]

Shuffle rhythm is actually composed of triplets: 4 x triplets per bar (if in 4/4 time). So there is no last 1/4 beat.

The triplets are played on the cymbal or hats.
The bass takes on the first beat of the bar, with the snare taking on the 1st note of the 2nd triplet (gee... hope that sounds right - again WISH I COULD NOTATE THIS!!)

lets see... (with each group being 1 x triplet and the first note of each group being the beat in the bar)

1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3
1: Kick drum
2: snare

I think thats it... :)

I think I understand, and I know how it sound. I have probably used it many times already when composing songs on the PC. However, it doesn't differ too much from the regular 4/4, does it?

As I see it now, it means that the last beat of each bar, is "empty".

Do me a favour; listen to Steve Vai's song THE ANIMAL. How would you describe the rhythms that appear in this song? It's one of the best examples on the rhythm I mean.

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Do me a favour; listen to Steve Vai's song THE ANIMAL. How would you describe the rhythms that appear in this song? It's one of the best examples on the rhythm I mean.[/QUOTE]

examples of what?

I can only vaguely recall Animal (i DO love Steve). My first thoughts: it was produced in 1990 - so a bit too late (and a bit cheesy IMO) to be featuring shuffle rhythms. Its undoubtedly a rock rhythm and I strongly doubt it would be swing either. umm.. (please remember, this is off the top of my head) is there a double kick in there? ^^ If so.. definitely NOT swing or shuffle. Just plain pure unadulterated hardass ROCK! :)

The kickdrum/snare relationship goes: kick - kick - snare, kick - kick - snare, etc. But it doesn't sound as the standard rhythm you hear in rock songs. It's the same idea, but slightly altered. You got to listen to the song over again, I'm sure you'll notice that it has something extra.

First, listen to The Animal by Steve Vai, then you listen to a random rock song like Deep Purple - Smoke On The Water or which ever AC/DC song, or perhaps another song by Steve Vai, which sounds more 'regular'.

I am positive there is something about it. Shuffle, swing - well [I]something[/I]!

EDIT: I'm not saying that Deep Purple and AC/DC got no groove, because they do, but I have never heard the same rhythm in any Purple/AC-DC song, that's why I'm accentuate Vai's The Animal in this example.

Also, earlier mentioned songs by Rage Against The Machine tricked me into believeing that there was 'something' about the time signature, but now I'm not that sure anymore.

I should really learn how to read rhythms properly. Is there anyone who know any reliable resources for such a task? I'd appreciate website suggestions - I assume there are a few who know a site or three. In the meantime I'll search around on my own.

EDIT II: I've just finished two more examples. One is in 4/4, while the other is intended to be 12/8.

Listen to both. Which one do you prefer? Do you identify which one is the 4/4 and which one is not?

The one in (hopefully) 12/8; is it shuffle? Is it swing?

Here are the links (to download: right-click the link and choose 'save as...' for best effect!)

[url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/timesig1.mp3[/url]
[url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/timesig2.mp3[/url]

Is there any specific, great examples on good old rockers/bluesers who incorporate shuffle rhythms in a satisfying manner?

Any concrete song examples?

Anything 1950s RocknRoll is shuffle. Ignore the thousands of 'theorists' who say its not shuffle. It has been proven over the last two years that all RocknRoll beats are shuffle (as per a case study conducted by Dr Tamlyn).

Particularly Bill Haley and the Comets (except for Skinny Minny - thats the precursor to 1960s quarter rhythms).

Or if you like: Western Swing incorporates Shuffle - so Western Swing tunes. Thats like 1940s - 1950s. Hope that helps :)

Basically: Shuffle is the easier bastardised version of Swing. Mainly because Swing rhythms really are more difficult to understand and therefore, reproduce.

OK. 12/8 - is this time signature considered to be closely related to shuffle/swing, or has the 12/8 time signature nothing to do with the shuffle/not shuffle issue?

Swing is usually notated in 4/4 with a note at the top to swing eigth notes. (This is usually denoted by Eigth Eigth = an eigth note triplet with the first two eigth notes tied together)

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]OK. 12/8 - is this time signature considered to be closely related to shuffle/swing, or has the 12/8 time signature nothing to do with the shuffle/not shuffle issue?[/QUOTE]

Swing is usually notated in 4/4. Shuffle is often notated in 12/8 for the following reasons:

--Early shuffles tended ot be very slow, and 12/8 makes it easier to see the micro.
--In 50s shuffle feels, the piano often played constant eighth notes to define the tempo

On the other hand, shuffle is sometimes written in 4/4, and swing could be written in 12/8. [B]Time signatures, as with all written music, are simply there to describe the sound.[/B] It isn't a shuffle because it's in 12/8, it's in 12/8 because it's a shuffle.

[QUOTE=Ratboy]Swing is usually notated in 4/4 with a note at the top to swing eigth notes. (This is usually denoted by Eigth Eigth = an eigth note triplet with the first two eigth notes tied together)[/QUOTE]

Hm. I'm a little confused to how it is triplets if they are grouped in two's?

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]Hm. I'm a little confused to how it is triplets if they are grouped in two's?[/QUOTE]

Strictly speaking, they are not triplets. Imagine a quarter note and an eighth note collectively under a bracket with the numeral [i]3[/i] in the middle of the bracket.

[QUOTE=namesareoverrated]Swing is usually notated in 4/4. Shuffle is often notated in 12/8 for the following reasons:

--Early shuffles tended ot be very slow, and 12/8 makes it easier to see the micro.
--In 50s shuffle feels, the piano often played constant eighth notes to define the tempo

On the other hand, shuffle is sometimes written in 4/4, and swing could be written in 12/8. [B]Time signatures, as with all written music, are simply there to describe the sound.[/B] It isn't a shuffle because it's in 12/8, it's in 12/8 because it's a shuffle.[/QUOTE]

I'd say the difference between a swing rhythm and a shuffle rhythm is that a four-beat shuffle rhythm could be conveniently notated in 12/8 whereas a four-beat swing rhythm could not. Why not? Because, as I've pointed out already, in (4/4) swing the sixteenths are straight and in swing the unevenness of the eighths is variable, not a fixed 2:1 proportion.

(Let's be more precise about time signatures, by the way. They aren't "there to describe the sound" so much as they're there to tell you how much relative duration is marked off by the measures, which has to do with notation, a visual thing, not sound, an aural thing. They tend to [i]suggest[/i] something about the sound--the prevailing grouping of beats--, but [i]only[/i] to suggest this something: they [i]indicate[/i] the marking off.)

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]Anything 1950s RocknRoll is shuffle. Ignore the thousands of 'theorists' who say its not shuffle. It has been proven over the last two years that all RocknRoll beats are shuffle (as per a case study conducted by Dr Tamlyn).

Particularly Bill Haley and the Comets (except for Skinny Minny - thats the precursor to 1960s quarter rhythms).

Or if you like: Western Swing incorporates Shuffle - so Western Swing tunes. Thats like 1940s - 1950s. Hope that helps :)

Basically: Shuffle is the easier bastardised version of Swing. Mainly because Swing rhythms really are more difficult to understand and therefore, reproduce.[/QUOTE]


What "thousands of theorists"? [i]Shuffle[/i] is a pop music term, and professional theorists don't generally concern themselves with pop music, at least not professionally. Musicologists sometimes concern themselves with pop music, which is a different matter entirely--a sociological matter.

Who is this "Dr [sic] Tamlyn", and where did he publish his findings?

OK. I will create a short rhythm example. You'll decide whether it is swing or shuffle (or; none of them, if I fail completely).

EDIT: OK, file ready. Right-click the following link and choose "Save as...":

[url]http://apple-joe.tripod.com/12-8what.mp3[/url]

What do you reckon the rhythm is?

EDIT: II: Don't think about the silly melodies, just think about the rhythm. And another thing. Sample/instrument credits to someone called Peter Kasting (Zero|DPX).

[QUOTE=Popup-Box]OK. 12/8 - is this time signature considered to be closely related to shuffle/swing, or has the 12/8 time signature nothing to do with the shuffle/not shuffle issue?[/QUOTE]

12/8 is 12 x quaver notes (thank you Ned) per bar. It depends upon where the accents would fall, but more likely to be at 1, 5 & 9. And if you were to apply crotchets to it (for easier comprehension) it would come to 6/4 - which would then imply triple time - waltzes etc. I would say it wouldnt have much to do with shuffle or swing. The greater the subdivisions, the less musical freedom. :)

[QUOTE=Ned]What "thousands of theorists"? [i]Shuffle[/i] is a pop music term, and professional theorists don't generally concern themselves with pop music, at least not professionally. Musicologists sometimes concern themselves with pop music, which is a different matter entirely--a sociological matter.

Who is this "Dr [sic] Tamlyn", and where did he publish his findings?[/QUOTE]

Sir, this one post may suggest to me of how ill-informed you are and all how ill-informed you wish to remain. What do you think shuffle rhythm was in its heyday? It was popular music. And shuffle has been in existence since Blues, as it is also known as the Blues Backbeat.

If you are so intersted: Check out Dr G Tamlyn as per the Institute of Popular Music, Liverpool the UK. His Doctorate Thesis was investigating the rhythms of RocknRoll.

I will also inform you: I AM a popular Musicologist - one who has done my Masters of Popular Musicology at a well reputed musical institution (a Conservatorium no less) with a full focus on educated music perspectives WITHOUT allowing such social-cultural matters to blind my intensive musical research. It in fact adds to the humour that I find myself applying to my research, because I find so many 'facts' are often 'not true'.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]12/8 is 12 x quarter notes (quavers) per bar.
It depends upon where the accents would fall, but more likely to be at 1, 5 & 9. And if you were to apply crotchets to it (for easier comprehension) it would come to 6/4 - which would then imply triple time - waltzes etc. I would say it wouldnt have much to do with shuffle or swing. The greater the subdivisions, the less musical freedom. :)[/QUOTE]

I think you meant to say "twelve [i]eighth notes[/i] per measure". A time signature of 12/8 implies groupings of four. Each of the four beats or pulses that make up a group is represented in this notation by a dotted quarter note and is in turn subdivided into three parts represented by eighth notes in this notation. Let's contrast this with 4/4: A time signature of 4/4 also implies groupings of four. In this case, however, each of the four beats or pulses that make up a group is represented in this notation by a [i]quarter note[/i] and is in turn subdivided into [i]two[/i] parts also represented by eighth notes in this notation.

Here's how you tell: Look at the "numerator" of a time signature. (I put "numerator" in quotation marks because a time signature is not really of fraction.) Is it divisible by three? If not it represents the number of beats or pulses in the implied prevailing grouping and these beats or pulses subdivide into two parts (which is the default subdivision). If so (with one exception, which I'll get to), the the number of beats or pulses in the implied prevailing grouping is the "numerator" divided by three and these beats or pulses subdivide into two parts. The exception is a "denominator" of [i]3[/i]. If "numerator" is [i]3[/i], the number of beats or pulses in the implied prevailing grouping is three and these three beats or pulses subdivide into two parts. Why? Because three divided by three equals one, and you can't have groups of three.

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]Sir, this one post may suggest to me of how ill-informed you are and all how ill-informed you wish to remain. What do you think shuffle rhythm was in its heyday? It was popular music. [/quote] Ahem. I [i]said[/i] "[i]shuffle[/i] is a pop music term." [quote]And shuffle has been in existence since Blues, as it is also known as the Blues Backbeat. [/quote] Wrong again. Backbeat is an emphasis on two and four. It has nothing to do with shuffle or the lack of shuffle.

[quote]If you are so intersted: Check out Dr G Tamlyn as per the Institute of Popular Music, Liverpool the UK. His Doctorate Thesis was investigating the rhythms of RocknRoll.[/quote] In other words, I'm assuming, his study has not been published. He's just some clown you happen to know.

[quote]I will also inform you: I AM a popular Musicologist - one who has done my Masters of Popular Musicology [/quote] That's hilarious. [quote]...at a well reputed musical institution...[/quote] I once encountered someone who claimed to have a college degree in "calligraphy" (handwriting) and another someone who claimed to have a college degree in "hospitality". The world is full of pathetic someones. [quote](a Conservatorium no less)[/quote] "Conservatorium"? Is this your attempt to parody Vicky English?

[QUOTE=Ned]Ahem. I [i]said[/i] "[i]shuffle[/i] is a pop music term." Wrong again. Backbeat is an emphasis on two and four. It has nothing to do with shuffle or the lack of shuffle.[/quote]
Yes: Hence it also being referred to as a BLUES backbeat.

[quote] In other words, I'm assuming, his study has not been published. He's just some clown you happen to know. [/quote] Well.. He's a Doctor of Music. thats already better than you.

[quote] That's hilarious. I once encountered someone who claimed to have a college degree in "calligraphy" (handwriting) and another someone who claimed to have a college degree in "hospitality". [/quote]
It is hilarious - and Id be ashamed to know anyone like that

[quote] The world is full of pathetic someones. [/quote]
You would know - you already appear one.

I had the good fortunte to attend a Conservatoirum of Music in Australia, as well as having the good fortune of studying a few degrees. One in practical, the other in Musicology. Laugh all you wish at my lack of education. I feel extremely privlileged. And thank you - you are obviously a reminder for me to read over whatever I write. There are people on here who know their stuff - finally! A forum of informed peeps :)