ahh! Indeed! track #3 :)

Mike Clarke is indeed one of my most favourite drummers in the world - and Id say a great deal of that has to do with his continual prescence on Herbie's albums. He rocks out.

:thumbsup:

This is where we go back to the original discussion - what makes something funky? To me, nothing on the Headhunters LP is Funk, or is particularly funky - most of it leaves me cold to be honest. (Try Herbie's "Fat Albert Rotunda" LP for Funk, not Headhunters).

So we come down to listener interpretation and perspective more than any set rules.

Another reference point. George Harrison's "Something" is not a funk tune. Charles Kynard did a great version of it on his "Wa-Tu-Wa-Zi" LP (Prestige). Now it's still not a pure Funk tune, by Bernard Purdie certainly MAKES IT FUNKY.

thrust and man child are far funkier than head hunters. i like those two albums more and i'm not sure why they aren't more popular.

To fully understand the funk theory, it takes many years of practicing to get the groove. I would suggest liteneing to all the funk you can, sit down and concentrate on the music, soon enough you will get the hang of the groove. It takes a little time, but find bands likr Eddie Bo, Funkadelic and the winstons. keep looking and you will find

Funk is a rhythmic based genre. So a great deal of what makes something 'funky' comes from the rhythm.

You gotta remember what also [i]motivated[/i] Funk: with the whole original Civil movement culiminating in Martin Luther King's death, Funk was a celebration (rather than an assimilation with 'White' Culture) of the black african heritage - courses specialising in African Heritage and Culture were offered in universities, traditional African Music was thoroughly explored, rather than a message of 'come white brothers and sisters, let us join hands', the message changed to "Accept us as we are, for we are proud of our heritage".

Listening to funk (mainly James Brown and Bootsy Collins) does indeed help. Thing is though, there are actually different genres existing WITHIN funk itself.

You have:
[b]FUNK[/b]
- Always features rhythm (standard rhythm section of keys, bass, drums and guitar), melodic (vocals) and horn sections (can be up to 3 or more horns featured - at least, Sax and Trumpet)
- all instruments utilises Grooves & Riffs (riffs are repeated rhythmic cellular structures; grooves can be harmonic AND rhythmic repeated cellular structures)
- vocal lines always include vocal improv using shouts, hollars etc
- the presence of the horns are rather important - they allow for a thicker texture, and generally have their own different 'voice' compared to the other sections. (in that they play their own lines)
- Subject Themes: moreso 'black' oriented tunes that relate to black communities and also include topics of VERY good times, drinking, sexing, and incorporates black slang.

This then branches out to:

[i]Hard Funk[/i]:
eg James Brown (detroit), Parliament Funkadelic (chicago)
Location: southern US
Derived moreso from Blues
- continuous grooves, few harmonic shifts, improv over small cellular structures;
- extensive use of The One; musical shifts eg harmonies etc all climax on Beat 1.

Soft Funk: (what I would label as soft anyway, because its very pop driven)
Derived moreso from the 'white' appeal of tinpan & gospel sounds.
- The Jacksons, Earth Wind & Fire, Commodores
- Location: North US (moreso) like NY, Philidelphia
- The One is used as a musical point, rather than the given
- Subjects deal moreso with good times, dancing, happy happy joy joy (in order to allow white audiences to relate).
- Same use of grooves and riffs, though with far more popular appeal, so tunes are not as 'longwinded' (as say Hard Funk) and are also composed for the dancefloor of clubs.

Hard Funk evolved to the more grittier rap/ hip hop genres.
Soft Funk evolved to Disco.

In other words, for a greater understanding of Funk, James Brown is definitely THE best - particularly early 1960s when Bootsy was in the band.

Herbie is not really primarily Funk. His music evolved from Funk into Jazz Funk aka Jazz Fusion aka Fusion aka Jazz Rock. This music came out in the late 1970s and incorporated a great deal of electronic instruments, intended to be listened to in the comfort of one's home rather than at a concert. Best music ever though :)

Interesting points - though no P-Funk offshoots (Bootsy, Clinton etc) can really be described as 'hard' funk. Listen to some of EW&F's earliest albums, and there's nothing soft about their funk (the same with Kool and the Gang) - yet they're better known for more 'disco' tunes than funk.

It's not easy to make generalisations or to pigeon-hole artists and sounds - for instance, many musicians known for their funk and soul output added country & western tunes to their albums (e.g. The Meters and tracks like Wichita Lineman).

I also know of plentry of Funk recordings that I don't think are particularly funky...

Hard funk hasn't evolved into anything - it's still around and very much alive - see some of my other posts for suggestions on further listening in terms of current bands playing 'authentic' funk. Hip hop, in it's infancy, was as much influenced by european electronica as funk and disco. The earliest recorded rap tunes were heavily disco-orientated, as that was the commercial sound of the time (gotta get your records played and sold...).


Meanwile.......despite everyone's inputs, we're no closer to what makes something funky, other than the listener's views.

First: the terms 'Hard' and 'Soft' Funk have been classified by myself. And it doesnt refer to anything other than ensuring the differences are well noted. There are of course cross overs - as with everything in music. :)

What makes something Funky is not simply a matter of perspective -

Funk being rhythm based, utilises:
- The One (where everything musically climaxes at beat 1)
- Swung 16ths
- Riffs and Grooves
- syncopated rhythms
- prominent bass lines and percussion
- rhythmic horn lines
- rhthymic based guitars
- keys provide colour and enhance the rhyhtmic stabs from the other instuments.

The melody (if any) comes mainly from the vocals (the melodic section).

wait - are we referring moreso to Funk the genre, or 'funky' the application or even the slang?
White people use the term Funk as a positive thing, but Black people use the term Funk as a negative thing.

Can we clarify then please?

[QUOTE]What makes something Funky is not simply a matter of perspective [/QUOTE]

...well I think it is ;) - besides, the many varied opinions (see the RHCP-Funk? thread for examples) of people using this board put that to rest. Different people will use adjectives in their own way - what makes something smelly rather than aromatic? What is the difference between colourful and garish?

However, what makes something FUNK (rather than funk-y) is a little more different, and i don't think that you or I, or Keb Darge, Louis Vega, Bootsy, James Brown, Eddie Bo, Gabriel Roth or Timothy McNealy (look these names up if they're not familiar) could come up with an all encompassing checklist to define what makes something funky.

The characterisics you've posted above is well thought out, but for every point you've made, one could list many funk recordings that directly contradict them.

I hope this post don't come across as dismissive - the more people are interested in funk music the better for me.....more people to perform to and sell records to!! ;)

soul

[QUOTE=franz sanchez]However, what makes something FUNK (rather than funk-y) is a little more different, and i don't think that you or I, or Keb Darge, Louis Vega, Bootsy, James Brown, Eddie Bo, Gabriel Roth or Timothy McNealy (look these names up if they're not familiar) could come up with an all encompassing checklist to define what makes something funky.

The characterisics you've posted above is well thought out, but for every point you've made, one could list many funk recordings that directly contradict them.
[/QUOTE]

see.. in order for me to come up with that list, I actively researched over 900 different tunes that had been released between 1963 - 1979. Those were the common components with all that had been 'termed' by Billboard etc as 'Funk oriented'. Other tunes simply were not funk: Blue Bayou ;)

And the difference between Soul and Funk comes down to the motivations:
The message of Soul was "I am equal to you; I want to be assimilated into your culture", therefore promoting a white appeal in many soul tunes.
The message of Funk was "I am my own person. I am proud of my heritage and I embrace it". (kinda thing), therefore embracing all cultural aspects that came to be (west) african.

Damn I loves de funk

Just replying to the "black people view funk as a negative thing", that is completley racist and wrong. I know the black guys I hang out with are known to say "Damn, that's funky" when they hear something they like. Even my old drum instructor, who is a pure funk drummer and grew up on funk, would often use the term funk or funky as a compliment.

Hmm.. i aint white. So I think I can say that if I like. If Im racist for poking fun at my own black skin - lynch me in your whitey way ;) (ps please.. joke okay?)

And Ive only ever heard black people refer to funk moreso in a negative connotation. And when I spoke to Billy Cobham at one of his gigs once, I asked whether funky was a good thing or a bad thing: He said in music - its the best. But he'd feel embarrassed if someone said he smelt a bit funky. :)

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]soul[/QUOTE]
i'd say that's a requirement for all good, genuine music. it's got nothing to do with funk specifically, people just tend to associate it with the whole funk/soul/gospel corner of things. you don't need to be playing something funky to put soul into your music.

[QUOTE]The message of Soul was "I am equal to you; I want to be assimilated into your culture", therefore promoting a white appeal in many soul tunes.
[/QUOTE]

..not so sure about this - those gospel singers that wanted to 'sing soul' were often ostracised by their own communities for their immorality.

'Soul' music's popularity, IMHO, lay as much with the sheer talent of the artists, and the cross-cultural themes of love, lust, heartbreak etc. Also, for white audiences (of the time), 'race' music (horrible term coined by separatist attitudes) was somewhat forbidden, and therefore more alluring.

Lex, we're going a little off-topic here, but the research you put into this sounds interesting. Wanna discuss this at length via email?

[QUOTE=dj_ando]i'd say that's a requirement for all good, genuine music. it's got nothing to do with funk specifically, people just tend to associate it with the whole funk/soul/gospel corner of things. you don't need to be playing something funky to put soul into your music.[/QUOTE]

does soul make things funky? hell yeah it does, so i'd say don't be such a **** and stop analyzing everything. i didn't even say it has to do with funk specifically, with all do respect :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=franz sanchez]..not so sure about this - those gospel singers that wanted to 'sing soul' were often ostracised by their own communities for their immorality. [/QUOTE]
If that is the case (and it was), they werent ostracised only by their own communities, but also by the white communities. Imagine.. these mofo singers who get onto a stage in front of 10,000 people and hailed as Gods and then cant get a cup of coffee because the store serves "White Only". *rolls eyes. How far we have come since then!
As Gospel roots are with the church, it would not have been looked upon highly to flaunt your talents for money I guess. The movie Colour Purple comes to mind.. (as a silly example)

[quote]'Soul' music's popularity, IMHO, lay as much with the sheer talent of the artists, and the cross-cultural themes of love, lust, heartbreak etc. Also, for white audiences (of the time), 'race' music (horrible term coined by separatist attitudes) was somewhat forbidden, and therefore more alluring.[/quote]

Yeh absolutely! Im of the opinion that early 1900s Racism was an atittude espoused by higher classes , because when you read a great deal about the times - you find that the lower classes, both black and white, lived together, sang together in church, played together, lived side by side together.. There are all sorts of entries that report on the free mix between lower class black and whites. IMO: Talent knows no boundaries - be they colour, linege or even genre ;)

And there were all sorts of 'coloured' inspired terms: Sepia Music, Ebony Music, the best was CrossOver Music. :lol: Seriously.. the labels were trying so hard to find a term that was appealing to white audiences but couldnt seem to get past their own issues of race! This was, however, in the leadup to RocknRoll. In 1953, Jerry Wexler saved the day when he announed on air "Lets Rock It Roll It" and thus came to Rock and Roll - thank gawd! Bill Haley had been known as a CrossOver artist until 1953 - but when you listen to this music, its definitely what RocknRoll came to be known as (well.. . crossover from Western Swing at any rate, with a few other genres like BueGrass chucked in there too!). There was DoWop at the same time too - which is rather un-coloured ;)

[quote]Lex, we're going a little off-topic here, but the research you put into this sounds interesting. Wanna discuss this at length via email?[/QUOTE]
it would be my pleasure to chat about it. It was exceedingly interesting - I even 'flirted' a little with Western African music in order to gain a greater understanding of funk roots. [email]ladyoflexicon@yahoo.com.au[/email]
Funk in the subject please :) PS I feel privileged.

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]does soul make things funky? hell yeah it does, so i'd say don't be such a **** and stop analyzing everything. i didn't even say it has to do with funk specifically, with all do respect :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I look upon the soul as a bit of a higher form. To me, funk is about earthiness, baseness, music to erm.. do the nawty biz to ;) Whilst it may take soul, it also takes the erm.. desire for copulation to make things truly funky j/k

Theres nothing wrong with analysing the krap out of something. Its what people like to do. If you dont like to do it - dont. But at least have a bit of tolerance for those who enjoy the analysis of, for breakfast lunch and tea :) to me, theres (almost) nothing better to sit down to a great tune and just musically analyse the hell out of it.. just for the simple pleasure of it. :)

[QUOTE=Lady Lex]I look upon the soul as a bit of a higher form. To me, funk is about earthiness, baseness, music to erm.. do the nawty biz to ;) Whilst it may take soul, it also takes the erm.. desire for copulation to make things truly funky j/k

Theres nothing wrong with analysing the krap out of something. Its what people like to do. If you dont like to do it - dont. But at least have a bit of tolerance for those who enjoy the analysis of, for breakfast lunch and tea :) to me, theres (almost) nothing better to sit down to a great tune and just musically analyse the hell out of it.. just for the simple pleasure of it. :)[/QUOTE]

well that may be, but there are always douchebags that do it to be a butthole

that whole bit about soul music being a bid to appeal to whites and preaching assimilation of black culture is straight up bull****. what's going on, anyone? and i could also refer to george clinton's early work as a member of the parliaments, most definitely a soul group, but most definitely not a conformist group.

Like James Brown said in that documentary, when one of his players questioned a groove because it couldn't be written on a piece of paper. 'Don't you trust the ears god gave you?'. To me that's the perfect explanation of funk, it's not music that is supposed to be explained - it's supposed to be felt by people who got the gift to feel it, we're blessed because it's my understanding most people can't feel it.

But what JB did was to only use rhythms, no melodies. This makes funk sound confusing to some because they can't piece it together. It took me a while to fully understand funk (if that's possible)

That the same bass line can sound badass by someone and lame by someone else probably got to do with the emphasis and timing which is as important in funk as in stand-up comedy, if it's off it sucks no matter how great it looks on paper.
There are rules to written music but the only rule in funk is that if it can't make you move any part of your body it's not done right.

And beats can be extremely funky, just check out some of the old-school hip-hop based ONLY on a drum break from a 45 rpm taken down to 33 rpm.

Is Backwoods by RHCP funk, or just funky? I've come to the conclusion that most of Freaky Styley is funk. But I've only just been getting funk lately with James Brown, George Clinton and Funkadelic.

[QUOTE=rhcp pman]Is Backwoods by RHCP funk, or just funky? I've come to the conclusion that most of Freaky Styley is funk. But I've only just been getting funk lately with James Brown, George Clinton and Funkadelic.[/QUOTE]

There's always one....:rolleyes:

Sorry, don't mean to come across as condescending or anything, but there's another thread for that discussion.

However, we all seem be in agreement that it's perception and interpretation that makes something funky. But it doesn't necessarily make it funk...

[QUOTE=TheDrunkenBoat]that whole bit about soul music being a bid to appeal to whites and preaching assimilation of black culture is straight up bull****. what's going on, anyone? and i could also refer to george clinton's early work as a member of the parliaments, most definitely a soul group, but most definitely not a conformist group.[/QUOTE]

Who had the money to finance the labels DrunkenBoat? Who were at the head of labels? Who do you think made the decisions in labels? You think during the 1950s & 60s that any high-powered corporate executives with black skin were about? This is Soul from 1960s too BTW. Whats Going On was mid-late 70s. And I dunno.. Id call that RnB rather than Soul.. but thats me :)

Look at the message - not necessarily the music. Think about Martin Luther King and his message. Martin Luther Kings' death IMO spurred on the message for Funk (Malcolm X, Black Panthers etc) for so many reasons - one being that black people realised that assimilation into white culture was not necessarily for them; and that they shouldnt be ashamed of their traditions and african culture.

Great ques. "Funk" is the attitude, the pulse. What defines "Funk" is the rythem...Playing off the "down beat", shading ghost notes on 2 & 4...allowing the pulse come before and after the intended beat. Like one guy said, think of 16th notes, 1e&a 2e&a 3e&a 4e&a... Play bass on the & of 1-3 snare on the & of 2-4, 16th notes on the closed hi-hat opening on the a of 1-3. That is the all standered "Funk" rythem, listen to James Brown...His rythem section are some of the most sampled "Funk" grooves in todays music...

the down beat? can you clarify what down beat means?

Because Ive seen docos and read plenty of papers where James, George, Fred Wesley, Bootsy - hell, heaps of funk musos, all claim The Beat in Funk was The One. Heck.. I hear it in the music.

Im curious - what is this down beat you refer to?

[QUOTE=franz sanchez]There's always one....:rolleyes:

Sorry, don't mean to come across as condescending or anything, but there's another thread for that discussion.

However, we all seem be in agreement that it's perception and interpretation that makes something funky. But it doesn't necessarily make it funk...[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm new to Jazz/Funk section. Just wandering over from RnM.

No probs - stick around for a while and have a little fun. ;)

The old RHCP thing is a long running discussion in this forum - plenty of differing opinions being expressed about it too.

Feel free to ask questions on all manner of jazz and funk things, but be sure to also have a search through the old posts too - loads of information there....

mojo

Jeez, where to begin with this?

At the top I suppose.

*School Project about funk huh?
gee I remember back before internet forums we had libraries where we had to go and do our own research. (just kidding man)

*Funk is slap bass?
That's like saying rock music is about double bass drumming or palm-muted power chords. Those are all just techniques, they don't make music. I realize you're just making an oversimplified statement, but come on. We expect better.

I don't think funk music isn't about any one particular instrument. I'm not going to be dogmatic and say what funk is or isn't but when I think of funk I think of a group acting together on a groove. I think it's about paying attention to what's happening around you and how you fit into the sound. I think it's about injecting feeling into the rhythm on whatever instrument you play your funk on. It's about how the pieces fit into the big picture of funk. This is how even drum machines can churn out funky sounding patterns, but it takes a human to put it together to make it funk.

And with all the theory being thrown around, I'm surprised no one has gone off on a rant about syncopation.

Umm.. read back thru the posts - subdivisions and syncopation is definitely mentioned :)

But yeh - I like that you mentioned the human element. With the wonderful technologies of drum machines etc.. we forget the human element of soul. Except.. my latest Pro Tools programm can offer swing subdivided 16ths for rhythms... far better than most humans can *damn.