The Samsons are pretty good, SBT.
A bit more top and bottom end than their competitors and not so much definition in the midrange when comparing them to really high end stuff.
For the money, you can't go wrong (I think Nick's heard mine).

So much bad advice. Sooooo much bad advice.

Just get the Duet, the new one that is, the 2020, Pro Tools 9 and a 57 and call it a day. This system should last you 5 years. Or at least until you decide you need to step it up and start buying high quality analog gear.

Moseph: The thing with the duet, especially the new one, is you are getting two really decent converters, and two really decent preamps.

It's priced more than competitors because it is better and uses better components.

Good luck finding a two channel, digitally controlled (but analog) preamp with Soft limit compression (with three modes), a two channel converter at the same calibre and Apogee's 'sound' for the same price. Plus a digitally controlled head phone amp and monitor system.

Not to mention it's all in one compact simple form factor it really is the best two channel mid level interface you can get.

****

THERE IS NO POINT IN GETTING MORE THAN 2 CHANNELS UNLESS YOU ARE DOING DRUMS OR LIVE RECORDING. AND ONCE YOU GET TO THAT YOU WILL NEED MOAR MICS AND MOAR SKILL SO START WITH TWO CHANNELS AND MAKE THAT WORK.

****

Fuck this growing into shit. You buy 8 sub par pres/converters and you plug in 8 sub par mics and you get a fucking shitty sound. Not worth it, go find somebody else to record your drums. Or better yet just have a simple set up.


Rant over.

Oh and buy some headphones. Good headphones are better than good speakers. I.e. Good speakers are the equivalent of shitty speakers in a shitty room.

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18516192]Oh and buy some headphones. Good headphones are better than good speakers. I.e. Good speakers are the equivalent of shitty speakers in a shitty room.[/QUOTE]

Already did, got these
[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyerdynamic-DT990-PRO-Headset-250/dp/B0011UB9CQ[/url]

But I want some semi decent speakers as
A: mine are on the way out and
B: headphones will never reproduce the stereo effect that speakers do, and besides that mixing entirely on headphones isn't such a great idea.

Sorry bro, I meant to say that to Leftfacedownsyndrome. But same applies

Yes but buying shitty speakers with a shitty stereo image in a room with an even shittier stereo image is just a recipe for wasted money.

Check out the Adam range, they are completely affordable and will last you a lifetime. Even if you get the smaller ones then and you feel like you need a bigger speaker you can always keep them as your smaller reference monitor.

I know, I'll be using the headphones for most of it it's just that the only speakers I have in my house are the ones I'm using at the moment and they've got a bloody huge low-mid spike and are starting to crap out and I need something at least semi decent not just for mixing but for listening to music. Would it be a better (read: cheaper) option just to get some nice PC speakers rather than shelling out for monitors which won't be used to their full potential in my bedroom?

My ass room with ass speakers translated pretty well in a professional room. Even when I didn't know wat the eff I was doing. Almost sounded the same. Couple things popped out but mission accomplished

I have those headphones and they sound nice, but they hurt after an hour

Yeah I was surprised how sick of wearing them I got considering they're actually quite comfy.

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18516192]Oh and buy some headphones. Good headphones are better than good speakers. I.e. Good speakers are the equivalent of shitty speakers in a shitty room.[/QUOTE]

I won't bore you with the entire story (not typical of me, I know), but me wanting some good headphones was what eventually lead me to wanting to get back into trying to record. I have some Sony MDR-ZX700. People hate on Sony, but I can't complain at all. I posted earlier that I ended up getting the PreSonus Firestudio Mobile. Have to say, been using that as a sound card and it has just made me love my headphones more (DUH, higher quality audio output).

With that said I'm still looking into possibly getting some open-backed headphones just to have two ways to listen to a mix and judge it (open and closed). I've been over the battle of the brands with many people, but when thinking about open backed I'll probably be looking at the AKG K701, Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro, and maybe even (the little higher priced) Sennheiser HD600. I currently don't have room for full sized monitors and sure as hell don't have a sound padded room to put them in.

[quote=Sad But True;18516338]I know, I'll be using the headphones for most of it it's just that the only speakers I have in my house are the ones I'm using at the moment and they've got a bloody huge low-mid spike and are starting to crap out and I need something at least semi decent not just for mixing but for listening to music. Would it be a better (read: cheaper) option just to get some nice PC speakers rather than shelling out for monitors which won't be used to their full potential in my bedroom?[/quote]
http://www.tannoy.com/StudioSummary.aspx#&&mGsP1ZtB8XY6xwwuIcOsgpMRFgDU+43Sf5CY42z6mdYKuS6R+CY3xG4Vu4i+b5LKERKmGAhLRoezNDlCre9sLCd5GgQrD5BwY4O9GVeugCHjIeKbvgROZ1jsEF8XU/UUGOfBJwnh+KPazJcSzpxKaQ==

Get these!

[quote=Convectuoso;18516190]Moseph: The thing with the duet, especially the new one, is you are getting two really decent converters, and two really decent preamps.[/quote]


Which is actually why it's perplexing to me: if you're the type of person who is considering the highest-priced all-in-one because of it's quality, you're probably also the person who's going to pass on it and move up to the next tier: i.e., something with better than "really decent" converters and a name-branded set of pres of some kind.

To be fair, I get the Apogee ONE even [I]less[/I] (who the eff are they trying to sell to?).

I'm not knocking the product at all: I'm sure it's fine (then again, I'm no gear snob). I'm just confused by the marketing aspect of the thing.

I don't really dig all digital control. Also I'm on windows so that defeats that

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18516192]Oh and buy some headphones. Good headphones are better than good speakers. I.e. Good speakers are the equivalent of shitty speakers in a shitty room.[/QUOTE]

The hell? Mixing with headphones is probably the worst thing you can do for a mix.

[QUOTE=chronopops;18517537]The hell? Mixing with headphones is probably the worst thing you can do for a mix.[/QUOTE]
Trust me, it's easier mixing on semi decent head phones that it is on mediocre speakers.

It's not a bad idea at all to mix on headphones.

I personally do my best to mix on as many different things as possible. One engineer I know has the mentality that, if you can make it sound good in ipod earbuds chances are it will sound good on most other things.

I mixed one song at another studio using their sennheiser 880 open headphones and it was one of the best mixes I've done. How I wish i could afford a pair of those.

[quote=Moseph;18516569]Which is actually why it's perplexing to me: if you're the type of person who is considering the highest-priced all-in-one because of it's quality, you're probably also the person who's going to pass on it and move up to the next tier: i.e., something with better than "really decent" converters and a name-branded set of pres of some kind.

To be fair, I get the Apogee ONE even [I]less[/I] (who the eff are they trying to sell to?).

I'm not knocking the product at all: I'm sure it's fine (then again, I'm no gear snob). I'm just confused by the marketing aspect of the thing.[/quote]
No that's not true really.

What I'm saying is, take the GAP Pre73 for example. Heralded as one of the best mid level pre's. They're about 600 or so dollars here. And about 800 for the Duet.

Now I could probably make a record with two Pre73's, that's 1200 dollars. But to make a record with them I then need converters. For Apogee quality at a low level the only other thing besides the Duet is the Ensemble or One, but I wouldn't go for the One cause it's only 1 channel.

So I'd probably go for an Echo Interface. Which is 300-800 dollars.

But the converters probably aren't as good. And it's not as convenient.

I could also make a record just with a Duet. For $800. And you'd probably not notice the difference.

All of a sudden you're spending like twice what you need, when the Duet would give you everything you need.


The Pre's kick the shit out of Focus-shite, Digibanine and even Echo. The converters are probably the best you can get down at that level.

My argument comes down to you don't need more than two channels unless you have a nice room, a nice drum kit and nice mics. Substitute mediocre or crap into any part of that equation and IMO it's not worth it.

And besides, for most styles I could get away with 1 or 2 mics. Unless it's anything that requires multi-miking I'd rather get the natural image of the kit and work on that. For anything folk or indie I could probably use one OH mic and one Kick Drum mic.




The only thing I would add to the Duet is SPDIF. But even then I don't care.

[URL]http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/hear-one.php[/URL]

Lmao after hearing this I want a ONE now.

Half the stuff on that page sound better than most of the shit on this forum, and most of it was recorded with the ONE's internal microphone. That's awesome.

Not been reading the whole last few pages, but yeah - I agree, more than 2 digital channels is only really required for recording drums. Even still, it's a hell of a lot more convient to go with a VST/samplier until you're talking some serious business with your music. Only then would I consider getting a 4/more channel interface - partially because as mentioned, recording drums doesn't just incur costs in interfaces, extra mics and shite will drive the cost up massively.

As for mixing with headphones - the best advice I've heard is more or less just be careful when it comes to stereo imaging, because it's likely to appear a lot more extreme on headphones than with speakers.

Also, apogee suck for making their interfaces mac only.

[quote=Convectuoso;18517881]No that's not true really...[/quote]


We'll have to agree to disagree. My opinion is most folks who are going to care more about cost over sound are probably not gonna buy the top-dollar device. Just like you "wouldn't care" that the Duet isn't quite as good as the specialist hardware, you'd probably "wouldn't care" if you spent $200-500 less and got something with similar features but maybe less of a reputation/good-sounding hardware. Particularly if you're a novice and don't know the difference anyway.

Anybody who absolutely is putting quality over cost is probably gonna pass and get specialist hardware. Particularly since if that's the case you're likely looking for more than 2 channels in your system anyway.

There's also something to be said about the fact that this little thing called the 90s happened, and since then there's probably been more good-sounding albums recorded using nothing but a pile of 58s, a 1604 and a Blackface ADAT than you'll probably ever get to make in your lifetime.

You can talk up great-sounding gear all you like (there's certainly nothing wrong with it), but there's definitely something to be said about just jumping in and getting your hands dirty.

sad but true, you got the right headphones for mixing, stick with em

moseph, you can't really argue with the assumption that someone who likes expensive gear is going to pass and go straight to a multi in, interface. there is a reason to have both no matter how "big" you go... and if you buy quality gear from the beginning, you won't find yourself with a bunch of useless gear down the line, rather, awesome gear that you can still use to aid your production. For example, you could have a co engineer edit guitar tracks while you're tracking bass, you could slave the duet to your main interface as a DI and save some of your other tracks for live channels while still maintaining audio integrity. I could go on but i think you get the idea

and come on the 90's? that's your argument?? i can guarantee that those recordings (whatever they may be) that sound so good eventually went through something nice when they were mixed like an api, neve or ssl console. Another thing... a lot of recordings from the 90's sounded like dogshit on a stick still hot from bitch anus; the ones that sounded rad like RATM, STP, Soundgarden etc were recorded on quality gear...

i'm not sure what you're trying to argue here but god damnit moseph, stop telling people to get shitty gear

[quote=Xomblies;18519477]moseph, you can't really argue with the assumption that someone who likes expensive gear is going to pass and go straight to a multi in, interface. there is a reason to have both no matter how "big" you go... and if you buy quality gear from the beginning, you won't find yourself with a bunch of useless gear down the line, rather, awesome gear that you can still use to aid your production. For example, you could have a co engineer edit guitar tracks while you're tracking bass, you could slave the duet to your main interface as a DI and save some of your other tracks for live channels while still maintaining audio integrity. I could go on but i think you get the idea[/quote]

That wasn't what I was getting at. I was saying that if you're top concern is quality, you're probably passing on the duet and getting 1-2 channels of top-notch specialty stuff instead. If your top concern is getting something that doesn't cost a whole lot, you're probably also passing on the duet and grabbing something with a smaller price tag.

That's literally it: I just don't get who they're really selling to (other than Convectuoso, apparently).



[quote=Xomblies;18519477]and come on the 90's? that's your argument?? i can guarantee that those recordings (whatever they may be) that sound so good eventually went through something nice when they were mixed like an api, neve or ssl console. Another thing... a lot of recordings from the 90's sounded like dogshit on a stick still hot from bitch anus; the ones that sounded rad like RATM, STP, Soundgarden etc were recorded on quality gear...[/quote]


I'm not talking about any particular ones, actually: I'm just playing the odds. The amount of BlackFace ADATs/Mackie 1604s/Shure SM58's that got sold in the last 20 years is a pretty large number. In amassing my own gear collection, I came across some other home recordists who let me hear some stuff they did, and much of it sounded quite good. I reckon there are more than a few dozen folks within 2 hours driving distance of me that have gotten similar results over the years.

If you want a good idea about "more with less" pick up both of the TapeOp compilation books. The fact of the matter is that just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it doesn't sound good. The inverse of that is also true.


[quote=Xomblies;18519477]i'm not sure what you're trying to argue here but god damnit moseph, stop telling people to get shitty gear[/quote]

You're drawing conclusions that aren't there. I don't recall ever encouraging anybody to buy "shitty" gear (though your threshold for "shitty" is significantly higher than mine). I do recall saying get what you're comfortable getting because it won't matter too much if you're new. Also that I'm not getting the marketing for Apogee's home recording interfaces. Beyond that, I'm pretty sure you're finding nonexistent subtext.

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18517546]Trust me, it's easier mixing on semi decent head phones that it is on mediocre speakers.[/QUOTE]

Uhh, dunno about that, bro.

I've done both, and headphones almost always give you a super inflated sense of bass and don't give an accurate picture of levels or EQ at all...

Buy some decent monitors and you're way better off...

Yeah you see that's where it get's hairy, what is a decent speaker? A decent speaker could be anything.

And the other part of my argument that you seem to be just ignoring is once you place a decent speaker in a shitty room, you have a mediocre monitoring environment.

I think the untreated room argument is pretty tiring. It's not THAT BAD. You shouldn't be mixing at high levels anyways

[quote=chronopops;18519741]Uhh, dunno about that, bro.

I've done both, and headphones almost always give you a super inflated sense of bass and don't give an accurate picture of levels or EQ at all...

Buy some decent monitors and you're way better off...[/quote]


Seeing as this thread is about "Home Recording", you should probably also consider the cost factor. For me, "good" speakers didn't exist until you were spending $1000/pair (though the ADAM A7's were just under that for awhile while they were flushing them out last year). However, "great" headphones can be had for about $200-300.

Headphones also, as Convectuoso mentioned, are relatively independent of the room you're in, which might be a key thing to consider if your living conditions aren't well-suited to setting up a dedicated listening station. This doesn't consider the additional costs of room treatments, which build up pretty quickly.

There are, of course, other workarounds that can be considered:

[url]http://web.archive.org/web/20090304015613/http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml[/url]

[url]http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/audio-softwares/head-fit[/url]

[url]http://www.midnightwalrus.com/Canz3D/[/url]


I've used the first two. The first one is my favorite (sadly, the dev has apparently gone under). It's not perfect, but it does help with spatial issues and dramatically reduces listening fatigue related to stereo separation.


[quote=Convectuoso;18519748]Yeah you see that's where it get's hairy, what is a decent speaker? A decent speaker could be anything.

And the other part of my argument that you seem to be just ignoring is once you place a decent speaker in a shitty room, you have a mediocre monitoring environment.[/quote]


To be fair: you yourself use "decent" like it means something all the freaking time. That being said, I agree with that assessment. Not everyone will like the same things, and in many ways I'm envious of folks who think the Rockit 5's sound great (I couldn't put my finger on it in the store, but they didn't sound quite right, particularly when compared to the Dynaudios/ADAMs/Events).

[quote=Kuffuffled;18519819]I think the untreated room argument is pretty tiring. It's not THAT BAD. [/quote]
Okay so when you can consistently (and that means every time, you might get lucky once) produce mixes that don't have low end problems and have no lower mids because your room hyped them, I'll believe you.

[QUOTE]You shouldn't be mixing at high levels anyways[/QUOTE]
Says who?

The only way to judge sub bass and even regular bass is to crank it every once and awhile. And whilst mixing done at lower volumes is way easier to get the balance right, you always want to be able to turn it up loud and not have it rip off your ears.

Essentially you're right, but again as I said previously, there are few hard and fast rules.

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18520098]Okay so when you can consistently (and that means every time, you might get lucky once) produce mixes that don't have low end problems and have no lower mids because your room hyped them, I'll believe you.[/QUOTE]

am i reading this correctly are you saying that you want kurt to "prove to you" via example that he can mix decently with an untreated room

[quote=Epidemechanical;18520107]am i reading this correctly are you saying that you want kurt to "prove to you" via example that he can mix decently with an untreated room[/quote]
No, I meant it figuratively.

As in show me anyone that can. Not just Kurt!

[quote=Convectuoso;18520158]No, I meant it figuratively.

As in show me anyone that can. Not just Kurt![/quote]



You might want to pick your battles a little differently, here:


[quote=Convectuoso;18291757]The only engineer...well musician even...that I've heard get amazing results and I know mixed on headphones is Sufjan Stevens.

But he defies a lot of engineering laws because he simply is amazingly talented.[/quote]

Didn't even have to leave the thread.

That's not a "one-off" issue, either: you're talking about an entire album, which has 15 songs on it.

[quote=Moseph;18520164]You might want to pick your battles a little differently, here:




Didn't even have to leave the thread.

That's not a "one-off" issue, either: you're talking about an entire album, which has 15 songs on it.[/quote]
Did you not see the Caveat?

"...he is amazingly talented".

And besides, that album has low end funnies all over the place :lol:


AND this isn't an argument about whether you can mix on headphones or not.

It's an argument about whether, at the level at which SBT is at, in the room he is mixing in, he should probably stick to headphones or get some speakers with at least crude room management. Or just treat his room at the same time.

Buying shitty Samson speakers and thinking it will improve his mixing is just stupid.

I never said or implied that it would improve my mixes, but now you mention it, it probably would. I don't see how getting those speakers could possibly be any worse than the setup I have now, ie, some low-mid heavy PC speakers and my headphones. It just means I'll have some some slightly better speakers and my headphones. You're also assuming I'm going to mix entirely on one thing, which I'm not. I'd use the speakers and the headphones together for an immediate and somewhat accurate representation of my mixes and then test them on as many other things as possible.

My speakers are the weak link in my mixing setup, how could replacing them with something more suited to the task possibly be a bad thing?

Because you'll end up replacing them six months later when you realize how crappy they are and then lose probably half of what you paid for because nobody wants them.


Sorry for trying to save you money in the long term.

If you want to go a bit cheaper than what you've already listed, SBT, check out M-Audio AV 40's. They're pretty good, and can be pretty cheap (I think I picked mine up for about 80 quid, some are kicking around for 90/100 after a brief googling)

They're not exactly the most fantastic speakers out there but they're head and shoulders above anything in that price range (and even a bit above).

[QUOTE=Convectuoso;18520245]Because you'll end up replacing them six months later when you realize how crappy they are and then lose probably half of what you paid for because nobody wants them.


Sorry for trying to save you money in the long term.[/QUOTE]

I've got by on much worse for much longer. I think I'll be fine.

[quote=Sad But True;18520326]I've got by on much worse for much longer. I think I'll be fine.[/quote]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9NFD7xcbBk[/URL]
If you call this getting by then be my guest.




**in before eyeliner**

Yeah, by definition getting by is just enough, and that is. Sorry we can't all be fucking masters at it. Get your head out of your ass.

Every little helps. Mixing on average speakers is better than mixing on crappy speakers.

Theres something to be said about using crappy speakers to your advantage though. Sounds crazy I know. But i know a few engineers that will do this, mix on yamaha NS10's (which sound like shit) but their selling point was if it sounds good on these it will sound good on most everything else.

Ideally you should have a few different listening mediums when mixing. At least monitors and headphones, a smaller set of crappy computer speakers is a good thing to use as well. I've sometimes even used ear buds. I try and think of what other people will be listening to the music on. Most people don't have studio quality speakers.

[quote=dave mustaine #2;18521252]Theres something to be said about using crappy speakers to your advantage though. Sounds crazy I know. But i know a few engineers that will do this, mix on yamaha NS10's (which sound like shit) but their selling point was if it sounds good on these it will sound good on most everything else.[/quote]


And that something is "be very careful about it."

Part of the allure of the NS10s (as I understand it) was that they "happened" to translate pretty well to lots of other systems.

There is such a thing as a crappy-sounding speaker that also doesn't translate well. I would guess that most crappy-sounding speakers fall into that category, actually.

So you do need to vet your playback system quite a bit and make a decision in context of this if you're gonna shoot for this aspect of "crappy" speakers.

I'm still a huge proponent of "listen first, then buy." Particularly if you can compare lots of different options at the same time. Monitoring is pretty heavily influenced by personal preferences. Even at the lower-tiered stuff there's pretty big variability in sound.

[quote=Sad But True;18520845]Yeah, by definition getting by is just enough, and that is. Sorry we can't all be fucking masters at it. Get your head out of your ass.[/quote]
:lol: Sorry did you forget you were on the internet?


Lol it's not about being a master, it's about thinking you're getting by when in reality your product isn't showing that. A little reality check is fucking healthy no matter what level you're at.

Dude I'm just trying to do you a favour. I went through exactly what you're going through. I bought some Alesis M520 USB's and sold the like 3-6 months later because you couldn't mix shit on them. Save some money, get some better speakers, honestly, do you not have time to save some extra dough and save yourself some money in the future instead of being short sighted and stubborn? I'll be the first one to tell you "I told you so" when you do sell them.




And yes Mo' beat me to it kind of.

The NS10's are good for mixing and balancing because the expose the mid range a fuck of a lot better than speakers in it's class. They expose all this yucky shit in the mid range that you might miss on 'better' sounding speakers. And once you learn them, you can mix like the wind, apparently...


But that said you either need a sub or Larger speakers to check you bass on.