[QUOTE=Aes820]

I havn't heard much about wharfedale gear, sorry.[/QUOTE]

Its pretty cheap...like cheaper than behringer cheap so i just want to know what its like

Thanks for that Chris.. thats link u put up was awesome :)
Should have read something like this before purchasing the speakers i got.
The db efficiency is the thing i found most interesting.. and now im beginning to understand it.

I guess it means if i put out around 350w rms through my 8ohm speakers (sensitivity of 96db @ 1m/1w) and 350w rms though my 4ohm speakers (sensitivity of 101d @ 1m/1w - which as u say equates to round 2db extra efficiency) , the 4ohm speakers would be somewhat louder at this wattage.

So in that term, id rather get the 2 x 4ohm samson speakers, but as u say.. i now need to weigh up the transporting of cabinet issue...ill sort that out soon hahah

Oh..and one snag.. just checked the specs of the Samson 4 Ohm Speakers again.. heres what it says:
Power Rating (at 8ohm): 350 Watts RMS, 600 Watts Program
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Frequency Response: 35 Hz – 20 kHz ± 3 dB
Sensitivity: 101 dB SPL @ 1W/1m
MAX SPL: 128dB
LF Driver: 2 x 15-inch heavy-duty driver
HF Driver: 1-inch exit, 44mm Mylar diaphragm
compression driver
Protection: Internal overload Lamp on HF driver

THe problem i have is what it says at the Power Rating.. ie. says at 8ohms 350w rms. But it says impedance at 4ohms.
I initially thought it meant 350rms at 4ohms.... but now im pretty sure that the 350w rms is at 8ohm.... what do u think chris??
I wonder what rms the speakers are at 4ohm?? ive emailed the site about this.. hoping they get back to me soon.

well im off to do some more research... thanks again for that link ;)
cheers,
steve

[QUOTE=aussiegnr]
I initially thought it meant 350rms at 4ohms.... but now im pretty sure that the 350w rms is at 8ohm.... what do u think chris??
I wonder what rms the speakers are at 4ohm?? ive emailed the site about this.. hoping they get back to me soon.
[/QUOTE]
That's a good question. I can't think of anything to explain that just now. Perhaps wait till the manufactures get back to you.

Yeah ill do that.. just checkin out some other speakers.
Ive come to realisation (well i did recently anyways) that my powered mixer is all i need.. ie. probably the cheapest powered amp with that much power.. giving the 2 x 400w @ 4ohms.... hence all i need to do now is find the correct speakers.
After lookin at that great Speaker links chris sent a few posts ago, im not only searchin for the 4ohm amps, but also taking a note of the db.

Jeez i hope my questions are helping other people out... or i hope chris answering my questions helps people out hahah
well i have another couple for you chris, if u dont mind :)
I just saw some speakers and it has the following spec regarding db:
Sensitivity: 98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter.
Maximum Output SPL at 1 Meter: 120dB Continous 126dB Peak.

I thought Sensitivity was what the speakers Continuous db was...
Whats the difference... are there any good links on these.. ill have a search for some now.. and see what i can find.. if i get a good one..ill send it in.. its the least i can do with all the help uve been doing.

btw.. i finally overcame my fear.... we gigged first time ever.. was first time ive ever sang in front of more than 2 people.. same with the guitarist and drummer. This was at my school.. infront of my teacher peers.. and students.. 'tough crowd' ahhahah well i have to say although we didnt do our best, due to not getting sound exactly right, some tuning issues, and the drummer goin bit too fast occasionally (i love using the drummer as a scapegoat ahhah), but we did rock :) We didnt get to talk to many people during or after because it was getting late 8pm and most where ready to leave this expo function... but we did get some good feedback, but tommorrow will be the d day.. kinda.. its back to school..and talk will get around bout our performance.. ****..now im nervous hahah nah.. i loved it.. thats the important thing..
We just did covers: Have u ever seen the rain, Knockin on heavens door, Patience, Civil War, Kashmir, Stairway to heaven, Jack n Diane.. and TNT..
Funny how i couldnt sleep the night before.. i was so **** nervous..but prior to the show..when i thought id be most nervous.. i gradually pumped myself up.. did a good warmup with vocals in the music room 20mins prior, then hit the stage in the gym...
so yeah.. the rambling is over... im a quite a shy guy.. and public speaking has been my biggest fear all my life....so jeez im so **** proud of myself (if i can say so myself) and my bandmates for doing this... just makes me wanna do it more. Makes me also wanna get a better sound system even more so... new speakers, plus a monitor would be great.. cant wait.
as u can tell..im pumped... probably wont be able to sleep tnight cause i still have all the energy rush from our first ever gig ;)
cheers,
steve

Congratulations. For a first gig, I'm sure it went well.

The continuous power output of an amplifier would be rated in watts, RMS. This is like the [B]average[/B] power output of an amp.
Because music is always changing, and the audio wave contains many variations in intensity. The power output of an amp is not always consistant.
So, this continuous power output is the average of what the amp will pump out under normal working conditions.
Those speakers will be able to produce a maximum level of 120dB under these conditions while receiving their maximum rated RMS watts.

Peak power is the absolute maximum amount of power that an amp can output. However this peak may only be for fraction of a second. This peak level would be the upper limit of your amplifers performance.
Speakers can peak to, but with speakers, this peak limit describes the absolute maximum amount of power the speaker can receive before damage will occour.

If you consider the fact that everytime you add 3dB you double the power, and there is a 6dB difference in those speakers rated continous to peak rated power handelings.
If, for example, those speakers are rated to handle a maximum of 400 watts continous. Then they will be able to handle an absolute maximum peak of 1600 watts.
This figure can help while shopping for a suitable poweramp for the speakers.
But, If all this doesn't sound too clear. It need not be worried about too much.
The majority of small PA users may not need to know all this.

That makes sense.. got the pic how db rating of speakers relates to max watts ;)
Its getting clearer and clearer which is great.
Ok.. one more thing.. so what does the Sensitivity mean then, ie. : Sensitivity: 98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter.
This i the the way most specs are shown in regards to specs and speakers..
Alot dont show the continuous spl and max spl.. but rather just the Sensitivity SPL.

well.. back to work..
thanks again chris..
talk soon,
steve

That "98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter" thing describes the speakers efficiency.
It is an idustry standard of measurement to guage the peformance of a speaker.
It tells you how good that speaker is at converting an electrical signal into acoustic energy.
And, obviously, the higher the better.

It is a measurement of the sound created by a speaker when it is fed a 2.83 volt signal (equal to 1 watt through an 8 ohm speaker) at a distance of 1 meter.

But. Take note that 2.83 volts through a 4 ohm speaker is equal to 2 watts. So the efficiency of a 4 ohm speaker is always going to be 3dB higher than an 8 ohm counterpart. And when comparing them to each other you must deduct 3dB off the rating of the 4 ohm speaker.

Cool all makes sense... great stuff.
Now just to tie things up one more question: so in terms of db.. is sensitivity spl the thing to look for, ie. that 98db 1w/1m thing....
rather than the Maximum Output SPL at 1 Meter eg. 120dB Continous 126dB Peak??

ie. im thinking that the sensitivity spl or effieciencty, will generally mean a higher continuous or peak.. is this right???

Basically am i right in saying, in terms of checking the effieciency or db rating, all i should look at is Sensitivity SPL?? I do remember u saying if comapared to 2 speakers of the same wattage, if one has sensitiviy of 96db 1w/1m and the other has 99db 1w/1m, that at the same wattage (from the amp) the second speaker would be twice as loud.... or another way to put it... the second speaker can reach the same loudness with half of the wattage used for the 1st speaker??? is this right... well hope so.. if so.. then im getting clearer about it all :)

have a great day chris, and the rest of ya,
steve ;)

Yeah. When speaker shopping the thing to take note of most is the speaker efficiency.
It is that, combined with the power handeling of the speaker, that the maximum SPL figures are derived from.
But, with highly efficient speakers, comes an equally high price tag.

But, yes, you seem to have a correct understanding of the concepts with speaker efficiency. But the majority of PA buyers need not know this, although it is handy for those who want the best stuff regardless of the price tag.

Excellent stuff chris :) Thanks for all ure help dude.. yeah itll definately help me out :)
Im gonna go to Better music tommorrow.. may well purchase some speakers.
Just recently found another 4ohm speaker, but in this case..its only a single 15" rather than the 2 x 15" of that previous 4ohm samson speaker i spoke about.

These are the speakers:
[url]http://www.musicianswarehouse.com.au/default.aspx?Pg=21&ProductCode=HPS154X[/url]

they are peak audio speakers, ... comes in 8ohm(HPS-154X) and 4ohms (HPS-154XA) .. and initially got info that these were 300w rms at 4ohms, but after emailing the peakaudio site, they told me this model has infact been upgraded to 400w rms at 4ohms.. perfect.. well im happy with 350 - 400w rms at 4ohms.
But fact that its a regular sized speaker box makes it even better...
And even better is the fact that they are sold in canberra at Better music and Pro Audio.. so ill check them out tommorrow..and any other 4ohm speakers they have.
The only thing ill check also is the db efficiency ;)

One thing i kinda find unusual though... ive seen this on a number of sites selling speakers... when there is the same speaker cabinet that lets say is 300w rms, and it comes in either 8ohm or 4ohm... but are the same price or slightly different...
id think, considering that the 4ohm allows for much more power use of an amp like mine
that itd be much more expensive...

anyways.. have a good weekend peeps
steve :)

[QUOTE]id think, considering that the 4ohm allows for much more power use of an amp like mine
that itd be much more expensive... [/QUOTE]

I would too, since lower impedance speakers certaintly used to be harder to make.

Yeah.. i still find it weird.. i mean.. when i first got into my PA research.. and finally began looking for a simple setup powered mixer... all powered mixers would advertise their output in 4ohm ratings (or their total bridged output).. so theyd look so promising etc... even though most cabinet speakers come with 8ohm impedance and only use half (or abit above) the 4ohm amp rating.
considering this.. i would think that itd make sense to have more 4ohm speakers available.. its taken me weeks of net search to find some 4ohm speakers that had an rms of 300-400w (at the 4ohm impedance).
I didnt know that 4ohm impedance speakers were harder to make.. maybe thats the reason they are harder to find... this and the fact that they allow for great power usage (louder volumes with a same sized speaker) makes me question the pricing of them...
either way.. im happy that they dont cost much extra hahaha what am i complaining about.. im just curious :)

alright right now my band is using this PA system for our singer. and soon we'll be putting our drummer through it, well his bass drum. [URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/632200/]here[/URL]
now, its only 80 watts, and my guitar amp is 120, bassist has 120, and of course drummer is loud as hell. so we cant even hear the singer most of the time. hes gonna be upgrading soon. and we're wondering if we can replace just the speakers with something like [URL=http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=1230&CID=CLB]this[/URL]

not that exact model maybe, but something like that. could we do that, and then replace the mixer later? and will it be much louder with 150w or 300w speakers instead of 40w if we're still using an 80w mixer?

[QUOTE=devildriver421]alright right now my band is using this PA system for our singer. and soon we'll be putting our drummer through it, well his bass drum. [URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/632200/]here[/URL]
now, its only 80 watts, and my guitar amp is 120, bassist has 120, and of course drummer is loud as hell. so we cant even hear the singer most of the time. hes gonna be upgrading soon. and we're wondering if we can replace just the speakers with something like [URL=http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=1230&CID=CLB]this[/URL]

not that exact model maybe, but something like that. could we do that, and then replace the mixer later? and will it be much louder with 150w or 300w speakers instead of 40w if we're still using an 80w mixer?[/QUOTE]

it will be no louder at all. Sorry guys- you just need a bigger system, full stop.

Yep.
The actual power comes from the PA head.
The power rating of the speakers is merely an indication of how much power those speakers can safely handle. That is, those speakers can handle [B]up to [/B]300 watts.
You'd want to save up for a more powerful PA setup.

well my friend doesnt have the money for a whole PA system right now, so he wants to upgrade bit by bit.
whats the difference between actives and passives? because i found passives for $50 each, cheap yes, but 150w. so if he got those speakers could he still use the mixer he has now, and then get a 300w mixer later?
[URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/609014/]here[/URL]

also, will the feedback start at a higher volume due to the louder speakers, or is that because of the mixer? so even though the speakers are nearly 4x as powerful, they wont be any louder at all? id think the 80w being pushed through the bigger and more powerful speakers would make it at least a little louder

Active speakers have the amp built in to the speaker.

alright again sorry about all the questions, kinda new to this, and this forum is full of knowledge :thumb: anyway right now with the 80w mixer, could we just buy a 400w speaker and use only one, and then get a big mixer and another speaker? i mean 400w, its not like the mixer is gonna blow it, is it ok to run only one speaker. if not, could i use the 400w and the 40w speaker now? 40w each channel on the mixer

also, could he get the 400w speaker, then a 2x400w mixer, and only run one speaker? its a 800w bridged mixer, if that makes any difference. would that be ok, or would it be all 800w going into the one speaker?

Hi there Devildriver..
well i have to be honest, i dont quite understand the question.. maybe cause im in a rush and didnt get much sleep,
Anyways.. i have a powered mixer rated at 2 x 400w rms each side.. its at 4 ohms, hence im bout to purchase 2 x 350 or 400w rms speakers at 4ohms impedance.
Personally.. id get either 2 of the same speakers, ie. a pair... or if i was to get a single speaker, id get a single powered (active) speaker of around 300w rms, and most powered speakers ive seen have great efficiency, ie. hi sensitiviy, at round 100db+ 1w/1m.

In fact, after i get my 2 x 350-400w rms speakers (which ill use for FOH, ie. facing audience), ill get a single 300w rms powered speaker as a monitor... itll make a big difference...

This probably wont help heaps, but i do know if i was to get only one speaker itd be a powered one..

cheers,
steve

actually yea that kind of helped...sorry ill be more clear though:
we have an 80w pa system, with an 80w mixer and two 40w speakers. its not loud enough, so we're gonna upgrade. he doesnt have the money for everything right now, so we're gonna upgrade in pieces. we want to get 2 400w speakers, and a 800w mixer(very very loud i know, but we're gonna be doing shows and micing drums and everything). so could we get one of the 400w speakers for now, run that with his 80w mixer, and then later get the other speaker and the 800w mixer?

[QUOTE=devildriver421]actually yea that kind of helped...sorry ill be more clear though:
we have an 80w pa system, with an 80w mixer and two 40w speakers. its not loud enough, so we're gonna upgrade. he doesnt have the money for everything right now, so we're gonna upgrade in pieces. we want to get 2 400w speakers, and a 800w mixer(very very loud i know, but we're gonna be doing shows and micing drums and everything). so could we get one of the 400w speakers for now, run that with his 80w mixer, and then later get the other speaker and the 800w mixer?[/QUOTE]
There would be no advantage in doing so.
The 400 watt speaker may not be any noticably louder than the 40 watt speaker.
The power rating on the speakers describe how much power they can handle. Not how much power they can pump out. The output of the PA head is what determins that. And if you are just going to be used with that 80 watt powered mixer, then that is all the power you're going to be getting.

My advice would be to save your money until you can afford to buy a decent system. All at once.

yea but its actually cheaper to buy separate, unless you can prove me wrong and find a 800w pa system for less than 650. and ive heard great things about peavey speakers and decent things about behringer. we're not trying to be louder now, we jsut want to buy it in pieces, and i was wondering if we could use the bigger speakers until we do ge the bigger mixer. we'd only have one 400w speaker though, so should we run just that, or that and the 40w speaker? i understand what youre saying about no advantage, but its just easier like this.

Save your money.
By the time it takes you to save up for the other speaker and powered mixer to go with the one you just blew your money on. Another product may be around that is even better suited to your needs and your budget.
Wait till you've got enough moeny for the whole upgrade. Then decide on what best suits your needs for your budget.

i know what youre saying, believe me, i thought about it. the thing is, for about the same price, the best we're gonna get is like 200w, and we have an 80w right now, not nearly enough, and its only the singer, so just imagine when we mic up the drums, and amps for shows and such. i was thinking like 400w, but for a total of like $100 more, we can have 800w. so why not? i mean we'll have the extra power if we ever need it. Its just so much cheaper to buy it all separate, and whats the difference? we'd have everything within like 2 months anyway, so its not like anything big is gonna come out. ill talk to the person whos actually buying it and see what he says though. and thanks for the advice

[URL=http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631254/]here[/URL] is the pa system with the mixer we're planning on getting. we dont need everything there, but we can get the mixer and speakers for 650, and then with the other 150, get that many mics with cables, and have some money for food after :thumb: its a good deal, we just dont need all of that. we have microphones and cables and everything, so we could save money and get, what im assuming are better speakers, because ive heard great things about peavey.

If we talk australian dollars (youll have to try converting if ure from US)
my 800w powered mixer was about $550... btw.. 800w means 2 x 400w at 4ohm or 2 x 200w at 8ohm... so if u gonna get 400w speakers, make sure they are 4ohms.
8ohm speakers are easier to find, so if u wanna get them, get about 150w - 200w rms. I personally, from my experience, would go for the pair of 350-400w rms speakers which have impedance of 4 ohm..... and make sure they have good efficiency.. ie sensitivity..
Im getting a pair of 350-400wrms at 4ohm speakers with db sensitivity of 101db @ 1w/1m.. and theyll cost bout $500 each..
so..its $1500 all up.. well worth it i reckon... all i need now is a decent monitor.. for that ill get a single powered box about 300w rms... and yeah..bout $2000 all up.. i think thats a pretty good price for a whole set up thats pretty flexible.. ie. the mixer is..
cause im getting 4ohm speakers, means i have less flexibility in terms of stacking more speakers on top etc... but thats not a problem, since these 2 speakers will ..or should/fingers crossed, be easily enough power/volume for our use...
great thing about my powered mixer is that i can also put in a poweramp if id want to add more speakers.. alot can be done with these powered boxes.. so i do recommend one..
btw.. i have the Behringer PMH880S EUROPOWER... cheapest powered mixer ive seen with that amount of power and flexibility.. so far so good.. :)

Yeah like chris says..if u plan on getting a decent system, save and buy the powered mixer and 2 cabinet foh speakers in one go... make sure they match..
youll probably save money with some deal or package u can get from buying everything at once... and if u buy a package from a store.. its less likely things will stuff up..ie. the match should be spot on.

cheers,
steve

that behringer PA setup looked fairly nice. you might want to upgrade one of the mics for your main vocalist.

heheh oooops.. just checked out that package u were gonna buy.. i infact have that Behringer Powered Mixer.. its great..
As for the speakers in this setup..well i have speakers currently at the same specifications, ie. 200w rms at 8ohms and around 96db sensitivity.
For me..not powerful enough.. recently did my first ever gig at the school's gym... people told me later that the vocals needed to be higher in volume compared to the guitar and drums... and as it was.. i was pretty much using most of the amps power..
hence.. im gonna replace my 200w rms @ 8ohm speakers with 2 x 400w rms speakers, both of which are @ 4 ohms.. hence being able to use more of the amps capibilities.
Also, these new 400w rms speakers i have an efficiency/sensitivity of about 101db.. which when compared to the 8ohm speakers works out to be about 2 db increase in efficiency ( my 8ohm speakers were 96db, and these 4 ohm are 101.. but since they are 4 ohm one has to deduct around 3db.. which means at 8ohms itd be about 98db.. so about 2db better than my 200w 8ohm speakers - this is right aint it chris?? hahah)
. Anyways.. the way i see it.. by doing what im doing.. ill have a considerably more louder system.. ie. be able to crank it up just a bit louder than how it is now..but still have quite a bit extra volume in reserve if i need it...

Hope this helps.
cheers,
steve

Been doing some more research at a local PA shop..hmm..
i think im may just pay alot and get 2 very good powered speakers... seems to me from what ive heard and read that they are the most efficient...
may just keep my powered mixer and use it as a mixer until i find some good quality, ie. high efficiency, unpowered speakers.
A few peeps ive talked to think its just a waste of time for me to get 2x 4ohm speakers at 350w rms+
Thats still an option..but until i find a good pair, ill just get a good pair of powered speakers, cause if they are lets say 350wrms +.. thatll probably be all ill need for a long while anyways.. i heard a very loud powered speaker the other day.. about $1700 for one speaker... forgot the exact brand. but jeez.. if i had 2 of these.. my needs would be pretty well met.. and most importantly in a very small package.. they were about 18kg each.. ie. only 12' instead of the 15's i have. Very clear and good for vocals.. ive heard mackie is a great brand for small speakers eg. 12', with alot of punch.. and great for vocals.. ill do some testing in the next couple of weeks.

btw currently im putting my 2 x 200w @ 8ohm powered amp though 2 x 200w rms speakers, im wondering how much watts my behringer is actually putting through these speakers... the guy at the store reckons the reason its not that loud, is cause of the quality of the amp, ie. behringer.and yes it was quite cheap, but he thinks this cheapness may mean that the amp isnt really pushing that much through..or the speakers i have.. a low effiecency at the varying levels, ie. lows-highs
Another reason im thinking of getting a set of powered speakers, ie. knowing ill get what i pay for.. efficient speakers which do what they say they do.. ;)
or ill get a good power amp..and get a mixer seperate.. and good set of speakers..
my quest to have a very loud (if required), very portable and easy to use styem continues...

cheers,
steve

Well. I'm incredibly happy with those powered speakers I've got.

They are 300 watts a piece and I think the cost around $900 each.
Their make and model names are the Quest QSA300.
I think Quest also make a 400 watt version of these speakers. With 15" speakers. Which may be worthwhile looking into to.

But, I reckon those speakers you've got already are pretty good.
Why not perhaps look at off loading that Behringer powered mixer and find a more suitable and higher quality poweramp for it (a Crown).

If you get yourself a mixer and a decent poweramp. It would be a pretty good setup. And would be just as transportable as what you've got now.

I don't know if you are keen for this idea or not, just passing a suggestion.

hey chris..thanks for the suggestion.
Im almost definately gonna get rid of those speakers... for the size, they just arnt powerful enough for my needs.
I was seriously thinking of getting the Peak Audio Speakers (ie. 350w -400w rms @ 4ohm impedance apparently at sensitiviy of 101db) until the guy at the store saying that id probaby not be that happy with them... he recons they wouldnt be much louder than the 200w rms 8ohm sensitivity of 96db speakers i currently have... what u think chris??? Just wish i could actually test em.. and hear em before purchasing.. but they have to be sent to the store first.. and i think id have to buy em if i wanted them sent..?? This is the option im thinking of cause i dont wanna waste or sell my powered mixer... well not if i can get a good loud result from it.. If i knew id get a considerable louder system (than what i currently have with my powered mixer and pair of 200wrms 8ohm speakers) from purchasing a pair of 4ohm 300-400rms speakers, id definately go for it..and also purchase a powered speaker or 2 for monitors.. whichd probably be louder than the FOH haha

BTW, the reason im thinking of getting a pair of powered speakers is cause i know they'll be very effiecient and loud and easily portable..Here is an interesting article i found on powered speakers:
http://www.stekaudio.com/`ART300a%20appraisal.pdf
I mean..if i could get a pair of 12' speakers.. theyd be smaller than what i currently have..and im sure louder than the speakers i have, since they are over 300watts..

Btw for a real loud but good system.. whats the cheapest way to go (Id probably spend 2-3,000 at most):

1. Powered mixer (what i currently have) + 2 Foh speakers @ 4ohm + 1 or 2 powered speakers as monitors??

2. Im thinkin itd be cheaper to buy a good Powered amp and a small mixer (since id only need around 4 channels) and good Foh Speakers.

3. A mixer and a couple of POwered speakers... this seems to be a good choice for power in a very small package.. only the flexibility is a problem .. if a monitor is required.

As uve probably already gathered in the last few weeks or should i say months, im still in very indecisive mode.. just doing more research... ill keep pluggin away.. not purchasing anything until im 100%.. who knows.. may get a good deal or something.. also think ill pop into pro audio again with my powered mixer and speakers and hook it up and compare to other speakers..

ciao for now;)
steve