depends on how how literal your definition of sustainable is.

why would you want to sustain civilization? is my definition of sustain really messed up due to English not being my first language? I'm confused.

I just read a book by daniel quinn called "beyond civilization" which was really interesting, and talked about how a few ideas that our culture (that is, the dominant culture of the world...not American, not Western, but the culture of 'civilization') keep us heading in a negative direction that makes most of the world unhappy but content. Those ideas were [i]civilization must carry on at any cost[/i], [i]civilization is the highgest human achievement and cannot be surpassed[/i], and [i]we must always grow / expand / make more[/i]. He goes on about all of the old civilizations in the Americas whose "demise" wasn't really a demise at all, but a choice to walk away from civilization because they realized it didn't benefit most of them...their culture didn't hold the beliefs of ours that keep us going despite all of it's problems. New laws and programs won't fix our problems. He describes those as sticks in the mud of the river of vision...the river flows to the same place and ultimate end (societal collapse) but the sticks just cause slight impediments at one point or another.

He suggests a return to tribalism. This doesn't mean sitting in caves with spears, it means people being a part of a group that has a purpose and has the mindset that [i]what's good for one is good for the tribe[/i]. We can't go back to the old ways, we just have to find a new way and move [i]beyond civilization[/i] (WHOAH THATS THE NAME OF THE BOOK LOLOLOLOL).

In many senses I agree with him and I have thought all of these things before, so in some way I agree with Martin. Not that cities are unsustainable, but our way of life definitely is. Cities are just the shadows cast by the way of life, not the root of the problem.

civilization does not have to be synonymous with expansion and growth, maybe capitalist civilization functions that way but i think that dude is off in suggesting that civilization is inherently unsustainable

anyway, sustainable cities, the class, really forgoes any stupid anarcho capitalist bs like 'cities are unsustainable' and looks at practical, functional ways to meaningfully reform cities to be more efficient, addressing issues of social inequity, green space, water, waste and energy management, etc. which is a lot more effective than just saying cities are unsustainable

The problem is people want sustainability and liberty, but that's where they trip up. Societys that are less free are more likely to be sustainable, but giving people freedom means they have scope to **** up.

[QUOTE=christsimpson;17929669]why would you want to sustain civilization? [/QUOTE]

Sustain means to keep going.

Why? You know all those "flawless" skram bands you enjoy?

Gone.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;17930138]civilization does not have to be synonymous with expansion and growth, maybe capitalist civilization functions that way but i think that dude is off in suggesting that civilization is inherently unsustainable[/quote]

He's just using civilization to refer to a specific culture, that which dominates the world. "civilization" is a culture (a set of beliefs) to quinn. he doesnt want to be 'uncivilized,' he wants to be better than 'civilized.'

[quote]anyway, sustainable cities, the class, really forgoes any stupid anarcho capitalist bs like 'cities are unsustainable' and looks at practical, functional ways to meaningfully reform cities to be more efficient, addressing issues of social inequity, green space, water, waste and energy management, etc. which is a lot more effective than just saying cities are unsustainable[/QUOTE]

yep. simplifying it to 'cities are bad' is dodging an entirely answerable question.

[QUOTE=whitesquares;17930237]Sustain means to keep going.

Why? You know all those "flawless" skram bands you enjoy?

Gone.[/QUOTE]

anarchy means i listen to skramz

[QUOTE=cobert;17930253]He's just using civilization to refer to a specific culture, that which dominates the world. "civilization" is a culture (a set of beliefs) to quinn. he doesnt want to be 'uncivilized,' he wants to be better than 'civilized.'[/QUOTE]

i dig that

[QUOTE=whitesquares;17930237]Sustain means to keep going.[/QUOTE]

ahh... I for some reason thought it meant something like "maintain at the current level". I need to not suck at English.

Well it does...

verse from anger and rage rules

[QUOTE=christsimpson;17930857]ahh... I for some reason thought it meant something like "maintain at the current level". I need to not suck at English.[/QUOTE]

I honestly think this is your main issue here. It seems a lot of the time something you're implying or something we imply is lost in translation and everyone is like wtf??

no he is obviously just a huge faggot

no that's the intelligence barrier, not the language barrier being in effect. j/s.

from now on instead of replying negatively to anything indietrash says we just have to say that it was lost in translation and we have no clue what he's getting at.

so anyway how about that Agna Moraine's Autobiography and Rentamerica split? great stuff. it's pretty flawaitforit



















































































less.

[QUOTE=christsimpson;17934595]no that's the intelligence barrier, not the language barrier being in effect. j/s.[/QUOTE]

bahahahahaha at your implication that you're more intelligent than anyone.

average indietrash post vary only slightly

"this 90s sounding skramz band 'youth pictures for a pedophile in winter' who no one really gives a **** about just came out with a flawless 10 inch. i cant wait for 'silhouette of your penis' to do a split with them"

"moshing doesnt belong in hardcore shows, did i mention i was castrated at the age of six?"

"you americans are all slushy big gulping war hawks, im european ignore all the shitty things we've done."

indietrash its my birthday today rec me a random screamo band that has 35 myspace friends and i will actually listen to it

[QUOTE=flesh;17935050]average indietrash post vary only slightly

"this 90s sounding skramz band 'youth pictures for a pedophile in winter' who no one really gives a **** about just came out with a flawless 10 inch. i cant wait for 'silhouette of your penis' to do a split with them"

"moshing doesnt belong in hardcore shows, did i mention i was castrated at the age of six?"

"you americans are all slushy big gulping war hawks, im european ignore all the poopty things we've done."[/QUOTE]

martin: A+ poster

[QUOTE=Iluvatar;17935057]indietrash its my birthday today rec me a random screamo band that has 35 myspace friends and i will actually listen to it[/QUOTE]

hb man!

I'll recommend five vastly different ones, and then you can choose which one you want to listen to based on whatever.

[url]http://thatspunk.net/blog/2009/09/i-witness-i-witness/[/url]
crust-tinged screamo from Russia, with highly relevant anti-fascist lyrics.

[url]http://thatspunk.net/blog/2010/01/quiritatio-as-the-dead-march-birds-will-fall-from-heaven/[/url]
very much metal sounding epic screamo band from the cold and dark Northern Norway.

[url]http://thatspunk.net/blog/2010/02/mapadelmundo-demo/[/url]
very brutal and loud Kazakh screamo band with a song title stolen off the lyrics to "Gloria" by Mineral.

http://thatspunk.net/blog/2009/05/dont-fu ck-with-columbus-demos/ [copy it and remove the space - the swear word filter ****s with the URL]
loud Orchid-like guitars that shred hard played by some Polish dudes.

[url]http://thatspunk.net/blog/2010/02/lizards-have-personalities-in-all-honesty/[/url]
an American band that pays homage to screamo greats like Saetia and I Hate Myself.

im not gonna bother clicking those links but 'as the dead march birds will fall from heaven' has got to be the worst ****ing band name ever. it reminds me of when me and neeshee would make up really generic screamo names like oh socrates! or if we are all part of the sea, why not toss what we own?

oh and my dad bought me fresh fruit for rotting vegetables on vinyl lol

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;17935104]im not gonna bother clicking those links but 'as the dead march birds will fall from heaven' has got to be the worst ****ing band name ever. it reminds me of when me and neeshee would make up really generic screamo names like [B]oh socrates! or if we are all part of the sea, why not toss what we own?[/B][/QUOTE]

loooooooooool

they sound like actual bands too lawllawl

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;17935104]'as the dead march birds will fall from heaven' has got to be the worst ****ing band name ever.[/QUOTE]

it's not a band name.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;17935106]oh and my dad bought me fresh fruit for rotting vegetables on vinyl lol[/QUOTE]

hahaha nice.

[QUOTE=cbmartinez;17935106]oh and my dad bought me fresh fruit for rotting vegetables on vinyl lol[/QUOTE]

\m/

yah he would always tell me how he bought it back when it came out but he gave it to his friend for free and how much he regretted doing that. we were at the record store the other day and they had it for like 11 bucks so he bought it and then he's like "well i would have passed this down to you at some point anyway so here"

I've never actually heard it :(

/ashamed