[QUOTE=Chaindrive]But let me just say this, and it's in no way condescending: theory is great, but real life is so much more textured.[/QUOTE]

Naturally. My belief is that everything in life is equal parts theory and execution. I learned the theory in a hurry, but it took a lot of trial and error to learn the execution that works. That's just how it is, and I'm at peace with that.

However, I do try to give people as much theory as I can, because it gives the process of learning execution a stronger method to the madness, a system for knowing what to look for, and in general helps you avoid looking like a monkey trying to screw a football.

If you're all theory and no practice, you're just a talking head. If you're all practice and no theory, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]Naturally. My belief is that everything in life is equal parts theory and execution. I learned the theory in a hurry, but it took a lot of trial and error to learn the execution that works. That's just how it is, and I'm at peace with that.

However, I do try to give people as much theory as I can, because it gives the process of learning execution a stronger method to the madness, a system for knowing what to look for, and in general helps you avoid looking like a monkey trying to screw a football.

If you're all theory and no practice, you're just a talking head. If you're all practice and no theory, you're a blind squirrel trying to find a nut.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. But it's been my personal experience (lots of decades there) that guys just meander through relationships without a clue as how to act. Good guys, bad guys, doesn't matter. They all do the same thing, pretty much. They're absolutely clueless. And have absolutely no common sense. The most common thing I've discovered is "Huh?" from them.

It sucks.

[QUOTE=Chaindrive]Exactly. But it's been my personal experience (lots of decades there) that guys just meander through relationships without a clue as how to act. Good guys, bad guys, doesn't matter. They all do the same thing, pretty much. They're absolutely clueless. And have absolutely no common sense. The most common thing I've discovered is "Huh?" from them.

It sucks.[/QUOTE]

To be perfectly honest, up until about the last year or so I used to be like that. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for women.

It's very frustrating that guys never seem to see our side of it. But we, definitely see their side.

[QUOTE=Chaindrive]It's very frustrating that guys never seem to see our side of it. But we, definitely see their side.[/QUOTE]

Well, most of the time. Just as there are guys like me who get our act together and try to understand how this whole thing works, there is an opposite side of the coin with women who cannot for the life of them understand how men work.

It's just something you can't avoid.

[QUOTE=Chaindrive]It's very frustrating that guys never seem to see our side of it. But we, definitely see their side.[/QUOTE]

No way. You can't say that last sentence with any authority if you think you're speaking on behalf of the entire female tribe. I have proof.

I'm not saying that men are omniscient, but there's no way you can say that all women can see both sides to the story, when that is clearly, clearly not the case.

[QUOTE=Jom]No way. You can't say that last sentence with any authority if you think you're speaking on behalf of the entire female tribe. I have proof.

I'm not saying that men are omniscient, but there's no way you can say that all women can see both sides to the story, when that is clearly, clearly not the case.[/QUOTE]

Where, exactly, did you find the words "all women" in my statement?

We're going to play a handy game of Context Clues!

Or, maybe we'll have an English lesson! Whichever is best.

[quote]It's very frustrating that guy[b]s[/b] never seem to see [b]our[/b] side of it. But [b]we[/b], definitely see [b]their[/b] side.[/quote]

Sup, bolded stuff?

Guys NEVER see our side of it. But, I never said we ALWAYS definitely see their side.

Geddit?

Man, I've run across a dumber than rocks woman lately. She's 45 and appears to be stupid beyond belief. Not only that, but she's a total attention whore. I bet SHE doesn't see their side of it.

[QUOTE=funluvinhobo]my first date with my gf sucked

i ****ed up the cinema and food times
[B]i elbowed her in the head in the cinema[/B]
the kiss sucked

but its 4 months on and its going great, just keep it cool with her and youll be ok[/QUOTE]
Don't you feel like an [B][U]IDIOT[/U][/B] when you do that stuff? :p

It's ok Greg. You can still get her next time, first dates don't mean a whole lot..2nd and 3rd ones tend to be the deciders. (No pressure :p)

[QUOTE=Chaindrive]Guys NEVER see our side of it. But, I never said we ALWAYS definitely see their side.[/QUOTE]

Still, don't you think it's a little unfair to say that men never understand?

You know full well that some of us regulars understand women better than a lot men do and we offer consistently good advice to both men and women who come here asking for help.

[QUOTE=Steerpike]Still, don't you think it's a little unfair to say that men never understand?

You know full well that some of us regulars understand women better than a lot men do and we offer consistently good advice to both men and women who come here asking for help.[/QUOTE]

I should have qualified that...OLDER men never understand. If you guys were my age (especially you) I could deal alot better with you guys. As it is, it's just a bunch of guys my age who haven't got a clue.

And that's what I have to work with.

To be fair, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to men. Have you ever seen the book titled "The Rules?" It's supposed to be a guide for women on how to play hard to get and land a winner of a man.

However, the authoresses seem extremely bitter, as they tend to treat men as the enemy in much the same way that a lot of sexhounds treat women as the enemy in a battle of sexual tactics. All of these "rules" are grounded in simple psychology, but tinged with an air of bitterness and cynicism that is designed to not simply allure men, but train them like puppies.

They actually advise women who have been spending a lot of time in a few weeks with a man early on that they've screwed up the relationship and should dump him and go find somebody else. They also say that if he calls late in the week to set up a date for Saturday or if he calls and invites her out spur of the moment to decline.

What kills me is that this book has cracked bestseller lists despite the fact that many competent people know it's one of the worst examples of self-help scam work ever devised. Here. [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446602744/sr=8-1/qid=1151895635/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2343278-2551802?ie=UTF8]See for yourself.[/url]

An entire cult is grown around this book of women who [i]think[/i] they understand men, but instead are just using basic principles of psychology to use men to validate their egos. It's a perversion of what should be useful knowledge.

So yes, there are a lot of men out there who don't understand women. But on the flipside of the coin, there are plenty of women out there as well who are every bit as clueless.

Wow, I deem that book dangerous. Haha.

Well, I have this to say about that book: all the machinations that women who follow this will have gone through are going to be totally unnoticed by any man. If you play hard to get (don't call, etc.) they won't notice. If they suggest going out on short notice and you turn them down, they won't notice.

Only girls that play by those rules inadvertently will get noticed by men. And that would be the girls that are only out for a paycheck, father for her kids, new car, etc. No one with substance. I've seen it time and time again.

Believe me, if I don't call a guy, no matter how much he likes me, he won't ache about it.

As I said, the whole thing is grounded in basic psychology. A few weeks of independent study on interpersonal communication and intro-level psych could yield most of this knowledge.

What makes "The Rules" so absurd is what these two women have decided to do with this information.

I've heard people compare "The Rules" as the female counterpart to the works of dating counselor David DeAngelo. While both sides are based in the same psychological principles, the key difference I've noticed in DeAngelo's writing is that he's strongly opposed to men acting contrary to their personalities. He offers his opinions and experiences on what has worked for him and his friends and clients, yes. But one of his core messages is "Do not act differently around women than you would around your guy friends, because that is you at your most natural and honest state." I don't agree with everything he says, but this is a sentiment I very strongly agree with. It's why I've repeatedly told some of the people here, "Act like her boyfriend, not like her girl friend or her best friend."

"The Rules" takes basic information about human nature and distorts with a bent toward manipulation and desperation.

[QUOTE=Chaindrive]Well, I have this to say about that book: all the machinations that women who follow this will have gone through are going to be totally unnoticed by any man. If you play hard to get (don't call, etc.) they won't notice. If they suggest going out on short notice and you turn them down, they won't notice.

Only girls that play by those rules inadvertently will get noticed by men. And that would be the girls that are only out for a paycheck, father for her kids, new car, etc. No one with substance. I've seen it time and time again.

Believe me, if I don't call a guy, no matter how much he likes me, he won't ache about it.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between playing hard to get the flirty, effective way, and the way that those two women were suggesting.

The first is just part of tit-for-tat men and women engage in while dating early on. They're basically teasing each other for their mutual entertainment, knowing the anticipation will make the conclusion all the sweeter.

The second is manipulation and a cry for attention. Plain and simple.

To be honest, I recommend guys read the book anyway. Think of it as the "Field Guide to the Untameable Shrew."

[QUOTE=Steerpike]To be fair, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to men. Have you ever seen the book titled "The Rules?" It's supposed to be a guide for women on how to play hard to get and land a winner of a man.[/QUOTE]
"the rules" is more just for finding some guy who she can turn into a complete pu[I]s[/I]sy and then marry

[QUOTE=I Am a Hat]"the rules" is more just for finding some guy who she can turn into a complete pu[I]s[/I]sy and then marry[/QUOTE]

Notice how I said "supposed to be" as in "marketed as."

I know as well as you do that this book is an emotional con job.

Steerpike, are there any books you would suggest that are actually worth reading?

i highly endorse emotional con jobs though



i'd actually have fun hanging out with a woman who follows "the rules"

That book is nothing more than ludicrous. In my oh so humble, inexperienced, opinion.

[QUOTE=Mr. Ron]Steerpike, are there any books you would suggest that are actually worth reading?[/QUOTE]

Look into Susan Jeffers' books. This woman actually knows what she's talking about.

The I really really really like has boyfriend, yeah, usual crap. But recently, she doesn't seem happy with him anymore. They've been going out for like half a year. And I wanna tell her how I feel about her. Should I do it?

[QUOTE=followedformat]The I really really really like has boyfriend, yeah, usual crap. But recently, she doesn't seem happy with him anymore. They've been going out for like half a year. And I wanna tell her how I feel about her. Should I do it?[/QUOTE]

No.

Haha, I wouldn't do it either.

To be honest, half the stuff in this thread seems to be from thirteen year old kids that have no idea about relationships, and don't seem to be thinking too hard about what they're asking.

Haha, I wouldn't do it either.

To be honest, half the stuff in this thread seems to be from thirteen year old kids that have no idea about relationships, and don't seem to be thinking too hard about what they're asking.

OK to make a long story short, I called her and asked her what was wrong and she said she felt awkward around me because she had just gotten out of a bad relationship and isn't ready to "date" yet. I understood that,

But this morning, I got a message from her and she said she sent a long message to Mike and she was worried about him and all that crap. So it looks like she's trying to get back together with him for the umpteenth time. He's already told me he hates her and doesnt want anything to do with her, so I told Sara not to try and hook up with her or anything, and i only said that to her because I didnt want her to get hurt by him again. But she took it the wrong way and now wont speak to me.

:(

[QUOTE=nobodyblossomsforever]OK to make a long story short, I called her and asked her what was wrong and she said she felt awkward around me because she had just gotten out of a bad relationship and isn't ready to "date" yet. I understood that,[/quote]

So the bomb was partially her nerves, but I don't doubt that your anxiety didn't help matters either. She probably would have been a lot more secure around you if you hadn't been as incredibly nervous yesterday. Women pick up on this more than you and I ever will.

[quote] so I told Sara not to try and hook up with her or anything,[/QUOTE]

You didn't just shoot yourself in the foot on this one. You took a god damn AK-47 to it.

Never, never, [i]never[/i] tell a woman in any way what she can and cannot do. How would you react if a woman was doing the same to you? "Don't try to hook up with her." You [i]would[/i] take that as her not trusting you and trying to control you, so don't tell me you'd understand she was only trying to help.

Honestly, I think you in your insecurity have blown it and should move on. But you should probably wait to see what everyone else here says.

Yea I know, it's quite clear I'm a complete dumbass and I deserve a negative rep from every Elite member on this board, but I apologized to her and she said it was okay. But now she recently told me she needs time to think for herself, and now she hasn't talked to anyone in the past few days. I'd really like to know why.

Ok, there's this girl in my class who I've known like all my life. She's always been sort of stuck-up. But recently (like over the last year), I've noticed that she's been a lot more flirty with me than usual, you know, teasing me, making deep eye contact, that kinda stuff. She's hot, and I've sort of always had a thing for her, but the thing that's kept me back is the fact that she's like the biggest partier I've ever seen. Literally, at every school dance we had this year, she was wasted. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that she's at least a little attracted to me. So what should I do?

Has she been like that with anyone before? Or has a reputation or anything?

Hey guys, I havent been on much recently, but i decided that when i get a little bit, Im gonna need to vent/get advice on summer, relationships, and friends leaving. but yeah. It wont be for a little while though.

[QUOTE=Tortex88]Ok, there's this girl in my class who I've known like all my life. She's always been sort of stuck-up. But recently (like over the last year), I've noticed that she's been a lot more flirty with me than usual, you know, teasing me, making deep eye contact, that kinda stuff. She's hot, and I've sort of always had a thing for her, but the thing that's kept me back is the fact that she's like the biggest partier I've ever seen. Literally, at every school dance we had this year, she was wasted. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that she's at least a little attracted to me. So what should I do?[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt do anything. It seems like she is just looking for attention from you, rather than actual interest. If she wanted anything more, after a year, she probably would have made more of a sign than just eye contact.

Don't read too much into things.

[QUOTE=nobodyblossomsforever]Yea I know, it's quite clear I'm a complete dumbass and I deserve a negative rep from every Elite member on this board, but I apologized to her and she said it was okay. But now she recently told me she needs time to think for herself, and now she hasn't talked to anyone in the past few days. I'd really like to know why.[/QUOTE]

First of all, beating yourself up over it makes it worse. Stop it.

When a woman says something like she "needs to time to think for herself" it means she's not interested in you at all. Move on.

if a girl says she needs time to think things out, at least in my opinion, it means that she doesn't have strong enough feelings for you that they'd superceed what she's going through. i mean, there's hope but it depends on how things play out.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

context: basically i had the perfect opportunity to talk to my boyfriend about his hanging out with his ex-girlfriend and how it bothers me... but of course i said sure yeah that's fine. [he's been in philly so i've only been seeing him on weekends. his ex-girlfriend and i are going to germany for the next three weeks which is why he won't be seeing either of us]

several of his IMs compiled together from earlier tonight: "well i kind of want to do something with linda friday night since its the last time i'll see her in a long time so maybe we could just hang out after the movie or the work respectively unless you have some moral objection to it"

i feel like she's his second girlfriend... not ex-girlfriend.

/sigghhh

Soo..update on my situation.

The girl was all over me yesterday. She's bad to me, though. I walked her out to her car after she got off work and we talked and then she got in her car.

"Am I going to have to fight you for a hug every time?"
"Nope."
(~.^ <---I made that face) "Really?"
"Nope."

Apparently tickling the mess out of me, standing in my way everytime I got up to go somewhere, sitting on me, playing with my ears and totally tweaking me out wasn't enough to earn a goodnight hug. :X

I guess I'll have to get her back at the movie saturday.

just be forward with her. Chicks love that sort of thing, and it allows you to act more, instead of rationalizing things over and over, and formulating hypothetical situations where you are rejected

[QUOTE=Kurrpt]just be forward with her. Chicks love that sort of thing, and it allows you to act more, instead of rationalizing things over and over, and formulating hypothetical situations where you are rejected[/QUOTE]

Wait, are you talking to me?

:p I'm pretty sure I've got this one. She's just mean. I like that.

dude, you like it at first, but i guarentee ya the "mean" thing gets old :lol:




:thumb:

yeah mean bitches usually are dumb and boring bitches