kristianwilliams: To make the most out of that powered mixer you'd want to get a hold of a pair of 4 ohm speakers rated at at least 400 watts each.

Or you could get two pairs of 8 ohm speakers rated at at least 200 watts each and run them in parralleld pairs.

Bare in mind the speaker efficiency rating of the speakers you buy. The higher their efficiency rating then the louder they will be. Anything over about 95dB is good. But the more the better.

And whatever speakers you end up getting. Look into getting some stands as well. Get the speakers up to about head height. They'll sound a lot louder if they are pointing at the audience's ears as what they would if they are pointing at the audience's ankles.

thank you very much for your help. Would these be a good purchase?

[url]http://www.peavey-eu.com/products/messenger/pro15.cfm[/url]

or should we go for something with bigger RMS?

Those look pretty good.
May you may be overpowering them a little too much.
Something that can handle more RMS would be better.
Say, 350 watts RMS absolute minimum.

I'm just afraid of suggestign you get something that you later damage by overpowering them, you best be safe than sorry

EDIT: Actually, on second thought. Those ones you linked to are 1000watts peak. Which is pretty high. More than double the RMS of your powered mixer. Um, I think they should so the job.
And 500 watts program, which basically means it can handle an average of 500 watts while amplifying general 'music'. They might very well be suitable.

It may be advisable to talk to someone in a music store and confirm this before handing over your money. But I reckon they could be pretty good.

thank you for all your help. I've learned more in the last day reading this thread, then I have ever trolling through books ;)

i've told the lead singer about what I've learned (needing a 4ohms 400rms with a 95db+) and that the ones I've suggested may be ok (4ohms, 250rms but with a 500program and 1000 peak, with 98db)

so we're going to have a look at them today. thanks guys :D

Just a quick little fact for you.
When you want to compare the efficiency of a 4 ohm cabinet to an 8 ohm cabinet. Then you'll need to subtract 3dB from that of the 4 ohm cabinet to make it a fair compaison.

So, a 98dB 4 ohm cabinet would be comparable to a 95dB 8 ohm cabinet.
But still, anything over 95dB is fine.

quick question, sorry to bug you guys again, but we've stumbled upon another set of speakers that the store said would be better suited, but I'm not too sure, wonderd if you could help


amp/mixer = 2X400w at 4ohms.

option a) 200w RMS 400W con, and 800w max. 8ohms. 96db
option b) 250w RMS 500W con, and 1000w Max, 4ohms 98db

both are similerly priced, but the guy seemed admient at option "a" being better and louder and clearer for us.

The amp is rated to pump out 400 watts per channel while at 4 ohms. Running 8 ohm speakers off it will reduce this power output. To the equivalent of maybe 2 dB or so.

Not knowing anything else about the speakers other than what you've said just now. They look like a pretty even trade off.

If i were in your position (and could afford it) I would opt in buying two pairs of the 8 ohm speakers. You can connect them in parrallel off each channel of your amp when you need the full power output of your amp, like during gigs. And just run a single pair of the 8 ohmers for practising.

cheers aes820. We can only afford to buy one pair at the moment, I dont think we'll need to use the full 400w aside for gigs, as presently most gigs booked are for pubs/small clubs which is why they suggested the 200rms at 8ohms, as they said we'd be less likely to blow them if we did have to crank them up. (keeping in mind I'm a drummer and thus, not that bright with sound equipment at the moment) but would'nt 200rms be very very loud? the Guitarists amp is only on low (it's a 100watt) and it's very very loud (louder then my druming). or are vocals and guitar amps different as in sound levels??

You may often hear that a good standard for estimating how much power you'll need. Is 10 watts per person. Then add an extra 0 on the end if the gig is outdoors.

10 wats per person is fairly big! But the idea is to have atleast more power than you'll ever need so you don't have to crank it up.
And I guess that is an estimate if you are intending to run all instruments through the PA.

If you are just going to be running vocals through it. I think 6 watts per person should probably do.

I think a 2x400 rig may be suitable for pub gigs.
a 2x200 may be pushing it, but if you are only using it for vocals then it might be alright.

The loudness of a guitar amp depends on a lot more than just the number of watts it has got. It also depends on how the guitarists tune, how they EQ, and what speakers they are running through.

My guitar amp is 30 watts. through a 4x12. And it is insanely loud!
[url]http://www.dropbear.net/files/Amps.jpg[/url]
It can very easilly drown out my 2x300 watt Biamped PA speakers.

But. What you'll have to do while sound checking is get someone with a good set of ears out into the audience and tell you what levels you all need to be at.
It's alright if you all have to turn down a bit. There's no need for you all the play as loud as possible. Just get a good mix together and you'll sound fine.
The audience dont like it if they can't hear themselves think either.

[QUOTE=Aes820]My guitar amp is 30 watts. through a 4x12. And it is insanely loud!It can very easilly drown out my 2x300 watt Biamped PA speakers.[/QUOTE]
WOW! :amaze: That's insane.

I have a 2x100 watt system that does a great job for small gigs with just vocals and guitar through it. But because I run a few drum mics and the bass through it, I added a 500 watt powered sub. That helps out the situation.

hey guys..um first im wondering if i have a crappy little 6 channel powered mixer...could i buy a non powered mixer and not buy a power amp and just run the non powered- threwthe powered- would that work...second what are some good cheap monitors...? third... is it better to mic guitar/bass amps or use the amps-line out thing to the mixer...thanks guys!

First question. Yes you can, but watch your levels.
Second Question. Check Peavey or Behringer

Third. Definately mic the guitar amp.
But because of the low frequencies with the bass, micing the amp doesn't usually sound too good. (unless you use really high quality and expensive mics).
You could use a DI box. Which would be the best option.
Or you could run from the amps line out (or headphone out) if it has one.

Aes, Ive noticed youve been helping alot of people in this thread, and since Im recently been investing in a PA system, as well as some other equipment, Could you give me a quick briefing on what ohms and phantom power is? From what i know already, Phantom Power is absolutely a must for most systems, but I dont know how many ohms make a good system and bad...especially in my low price range.

And a few 100 post back, You suggested this system "C100 Portable PA System 100W". I dont know how outdated that specific post was, but would you still recommend for a budget? or is there something else i can get for a few extra bucks thatll bring me a longer way?

Ohms are a measure of resistance. Or in the case of an audio signal, it is impedence.
It basically describes how much the signal coming out of your amp is going to be restricted by the speaker.
Like a flood gate in a river controlling water flow. With a large amount of resistance the current flow from your amp wil be impeded or resticted to a lesser amount.
A large amount of ohms (16) will slow down the current flow from your amp more so than a small amount of ohms (2).

So. An amp might be rated to pump out 200 watts while through 4 ohms. This 200 watts will be dependant on the rate of current flow out of the amp. So if you run it through more than 4 ohms, then this power output may decrease (this is knowns as running an amp cool) And if you run it through less than 4 ohms this power output may increase (this is knowns as running the amp hot).

It is fine to run an amp cool. You'll loose a bit of output power but there is no risk of damage.
Running an amp hot can cause problems. You can have an increase in power output. But because of the extra heat created you could burn out components within your amp.


Phantom power is definately not essential. Phantom power is for use with devices which need to draw a power source from somewhere.
Condensor microphones, or DI boxes require a power source to run. This can often be achieved by a 9 volt battery but can also be achieved through the use of phantom power.
With phantom power, a voltage is sent down a seperate wire within the XLR cable from the mixer. This voltage is used by the condensor microphones or DI boxes in order to operate.
If you are not using condensor microphones or anything that requires phantom powering then there is no need to have it. Although most mid to higher end products do have this facility as an option. But if it is not needed, then just leave it off.

And if you do use it then make sure you use properly balanced XLR cables.

The c100 would do if you are on a tight budget. Good for practising and jamming in a garage or community hall or somewhere of that size.
You wouldn't bother trying to gig with it. It may not be enough. But possibly alright for just a backyard sized gig.

aes, how do you know all this? anything anybody asks, and you know it. hah, anyway, about the running an amp cool thing, you said its not a problem, so if i had an amp rated for say 8 ohms, could i run it at 16 and it would be fine? im just wondering so i know, im not gonna be doing this, more out of curiosity

It's fine to run an amp a little cool. If you can live with the reduced power output.

If it is a tube amp, the tone may sound a little thinner.
But for PA gear any change in tone may hardly be noticeable.

Yes, it's another what PA should I get post :D . But anyways, which one of these would be best for practicing and small gigs. The price doesn't matter.

[url]http://www.music123.com/SoundTech-STPA4040-i149904.music[/url]

[url]http://www.music123.com/SoundTech-S20-i131742.music[/url]

[url]http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/632200/[/url]

[url]http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630130/[/url]

[url]http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/608003/[/url]

Thanks guys.

I would go with the second one out of those choices.

[QUOTE=isojoe420]I would go with the second one out of those choices.[/QUOTE]

Thats what I was thinking too.

They are all in the same power range. Maybe the Kustom and the audiochoice also

Stay well away from amps that use their peak power output as a major selling point. They are bad news.

Out of those options. I think the C100 would be the best of a bad bunch.

Ok, are shows will be about 100 people max, we need no more than two mics and maybe some monitors for the drummer, how much wattage do you think we will need, and what are some good sets to look into?

Help is greatly appreciated!

[QUOTE=Silent Clepto]Ok, are shows will be about 100 people max, we need no more than two mics and maybe some monitors for the drummer, how much wattage do you think we will need, and what are some good sets to look into?

Help is greatly appreciated![/QUOTE]
A packed system from Yamaha or Peavey.
About 2x300 watts as a bare minimum.
And for monitors just use a small powered speaker. Or maybe also get one of those little 80 watt practise PAs like those linked to in the replies above, and use those as monitors.

ok, I'll check them out, thanks alot.

edit: ok, we looked at a Yamaha one that was 2x400 watt setup, with 8 channels. How many watts would each channel be getting then? and could you bridge it so two would get more or how does all that work? Thanks for all the help.

Think of channels as inputs. It can handle 8 things being plugged into it.
The mixer combines all these things. And it is then amplified by 2x400 watt power sections.

Yes you can bridge it if you want.
If an amp pumps out 2x400 watts while through 4 ohms. Then it'll pump out 1x800 watts through 8 ohms bridged.
But, you'll loose stereo dynamacs, as both left and right channels will be combined into the one mono channels.

Although the actual difference in loudness between 1x800 watts and 2x400 watts is neglible.
Bridging is handy if you really only need a mono output, such as for a monitoring system, Or if you want the extra watts for something liek a sub-woofer. Or if you are getting into tricky stuff, like power shading.
For your use, i'm thinking that bridging a poweramp is not generally necessary.

[QUOTE=Aes820]Stay well away from amps that use their peak power output as a major selling point. They are bad news.

Out of those options. I think the C100 would be the best of a bad bunch.[/QUOTE]

Actually the C100 is the same brand as Soundtech. It's Audio Choice... by Soundtech (look at the brand's image at the musicians friend website.)

So the S20 it is?

[QUOTE=Horenulas]So the S20 it is?[/QUOTE]
No. I think the S20 is the worst out of the lot.
The c100 or the Squire one would be better. Marginally.

[QUOTE=Aes820]No. I think the S20 is the worst out of the lot.
The c100 or the Squire one would be better. Marginally.[/QUOTE]

Why exactly is that?

Well. If it is power that you're looking for. Then seeing as the C1 is rated at having 160 watts peak. It's RMS power may only be around 50 watts or so. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. You really can't tell, because peak power is no clear indicator of the amps actual performance.
And it's only got 2 mincrophone inputs as apposed to the 4 on the other systems.

If it is a quality product that you are after, then you definatley get what you pay for.

Hey Aes, is there anything wrong with using my Marshall poweramp to run Audio through, untill I buy a SS poweramp?

I realise it'll colour it an awfull lot, but I just wanna test out these speakers I just bought, for feedback on ebay and such...

If it's gonna damage it, I'll wait till we (me and my mate) gig the speakers.

Nah. It should be no worries at all to use your poweramp for rull range audio.
EL34s aren't known for being exactally transparent. Not like 6L6s or KT88s.
But I reckon it'll sound great.

If the speakers are new they could do good with a couple of hours 'burning in' time anyway. Crank those little fukers! :)

Aes, I was curious to know what live sound gear YOU use.

Most of the stuff I have used and had (limited) experience with hasn't being my own.
It has being either hired on the night or belonging to the venue.

Because I just dead set cannot afford some of the rigs that you get in theaters or play-houses, or like at big gigs. Some of these seups are worth many thousands of dollars.

For my own gear. I use a little 100 watt powered mixer (similar to that c100 one that was linked to earlier). That my band use for the occasional practise or as a monitoring setup during small gigs.
I've also got a pair of decent 300 watt powered speakers that we use to run vocals through during small gigs. These are very nice speakers.

[QUOTE=Aes820]Well. If it is power that you're looking for. Then seeing as the C1 is rated at having 160 watts peak. It's RMS power may only be around 50 watts or so. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. You really can't tell, because peak power is no clear indicator of the amps actual performance.
And it's only got 2 mincrophone inputs as apposed to the 4 on the other systems.

If it is a quality product that you are after, then you definatley get what you pay for.[/QUOTE]

Is the difference between 12" speakers and 10" speakers greaT?

What matters more is the efficiency of the speakers.
And the frequency responce of the speakers.

But, because there is not much difference in price beteween these setups I don't think there'll be much of a difference between them anyway.

The description of the products don't even list the speakers efficicy and frequency responce.
Which is fine, it just means that these products are inteded as a more entry level system. For people who may not know or dont care about technical specifications such as these.

To answer your question: No, it shouldn't matter that much.

Which system would be good for my band that has two 120 watt(one tube) guitar amp, one 300watt bass amp, and a drumset?? our budgett was around 200-300 dollars but we figure we wouldnt get loud enough system with that kind of money so we are hoping to raise it to around 500 if that will get us a decent system.....

PAs don't include instrument combos/stacks.

[QUOTE=Aes820]Nah. It should be no worries at all to use your poweramp for rull range audio.
EL34s aren't known for being exactally transparent. Not like 6L6s or KT88s.
But I reckon it'll sound great.

If the speakers are new they could do good with a couple of hours 'burning in' time anyway. Crank those little fukers! :)[/QUOTE]


Hmm, will it still keep the louder than SS properties?

[QUOTE=soheaven]Which system would be good for my band that has two 120 watt(one tube) guitar amp, one 300watt bass amp, and a drumset?? our budgett was around 200-300 dollars but we figure we wouldnt get loud enough system with that kind of money so we are hoping to raise it to around 500 if that will get us a decent system.....[/QUOTE]


500? not much. my band has a 120w bass amp, a drumset, and my 120w guitar amp, soon to be upgraded to the 5150 which is 120w tube. we're getting a new pa system soon, and we're looking at close to $800, and its just the basics, power amp, mixer, speakers. we were looking at a powered mixer again because of the prices, but none were powerful enough, and if they were they had so many features that we didn't need and they ended up being mroe expensive. we're getting an 800w system though, so we can do shows with it. i dont know what you want to do, but get at least 200w, that'll barely work for practices. id look more at 400-500 or more