[QUOTE=Dr. Jake Destructo]art rock is prog rock, as far as I'm concerned. And, by no stretch are APC metal. :lol: I don't even consider Tool metal. :rolleyes: Not like it matters.[/QUOTE]

Like I've said, Prog rock is so broad that the terms are almost interchangable. Straight up art-rock is not necessarily Prog and vice-versa.

[QUOTE=opeth_oasis]yeha i love thirteenth step, i know most wont agree but i prefer it over mer de noms[/QUOTE]

I also prefer Thirteenth Step over Mer De Noms, simply because it's a more well-rounded album than Mer De Noms. Mer has some of their greatest songs, but the last half is weaker than the first half and not near as consistent (if the last half had lived up to the first half in terms of greatness, it would probably be better), whereas Thirteenth Step was very much coherent as a full album, and also included some of their best songs.

Are there sites similar to toolshed.down.net?

[QUOTE=Kage]I also prefer Thirteenth Step over Mer De Noms, simply because it's a more well-rounded album than Mer De Noms. Mer has some of their greatest songs, but the last half is weaker than the first half and not near as consistent (if the last half had lived up to the first half in terms of greatness, it would probably be better), whereas Thirteenth Step was very much coherent as a full album, and also included some of their best songs.[/QUOTE]

i loved both the albums, i choose each cd according to what mood i'm in, nice and relaxed and just want to chill, 13th step, have a little energy and dont want alot of slow songs, mer de noms, and if i want passive or imagine, eMOTIVE.


But over all, i can maybe listen to them everyonce and while, but with tool, my day starts and ends with lateralus. The only album i can never be bored of..... ever

I like both bands almost equally now. I got into Tool first, and didn't really like APC at first, but after a few listens I really began to love them. At the moment i'm very much into them, and their songs don't really get boring, I disagree that APC are simply short, pop songs. The fact is, most people in the UK have never heard of APC or Tool, i've never seen a video from either band played on a music channel here. Besides that, APC has more longevity than the vast majority of pop music. I don't get bored of their good songs, and I would consider much of their music to be classic (ie: In ten years I could see myself putting 3 Libras on, or whatever), much the same with Tool.

There's no doubt that APC is more melodic than Tool, intrumentally, and with the vocals generally. This dosn't make it pop music by a long shot.

Anyway, two very different bands, love them both equally.

The only distinction I can make is that if i ever saw them live, i'd want Tool to play like a 3+ hour set, while i'd be satisfied with APC playing for an hour or two. I think this comes in the music style, and how long the songs are generally though, not necesserally because Tool are "better".

Edit: Oh, I was pleasently suprised to hear Passive in the movie Constantine, one of my favourite APC songs. The movie itself was actually better than I thought it would be, (I had low expectations).

[QUOTE=MuDvAyNe3B]why H. last? Third Eye is the best closing song i think if your combining them.[/QUOTE]



meh...when i finished, i noticed H. wasn't there so i just stuck it at the bottom

I'd take Triad over Third Eye for a closer. They're both two of my favorite Tool songs. Probably 2 of my favorite guitar solos as well. (The 2nd one in Third Eye, at least.)

[QUOTE=Shadius]

Edit: Oh, I was pleasently suprised to hear Passive in the movie Constantine, one of my favourite APC songs. The movie itself was actually better than I thought it would be, (I had low expectations).[/QUOTE]

Thats wierd, Because i just saw that movie yesterday. I was very surprised when i heard it in the movie.

[QUOTE=opeth_oasis]yeha i love thirteenth step, i know most wont agree but i prefer it over mer de noms[/QUOTE]

im the same way

Constantine kicked some major butt... and 'passive' sounded better than on "Emotive"

[QUOTE=Shadius]Edit: Oh, I was pleasently suprised to hear Passive in the movie Constantine, one of my favourite APC songs. The movie itself was actually better than I thought it would be, (I had low expectations).[/QUOTE]

That movie was pretty awesome. I didn't have a clue what it was when I went to see it. I hadn't seen a trailor, commercial, or knew a thing about it. It was an awesome movie to just randomly choose to see. I wanna get the DVD when it comes out for extra footage and special effects stuff. The demon in the mirror thing was awesome looking.

[B] I believe that I have found an alternate track listing for A Perfect Circle’s album Thirteenth Step. [/B]

Just so you know, this is a long read.

After reading the explanation for the so-called Holy Grail of Tool’s album Lateralus, the much talked about alternate song order, I began thinking about other CD’s I had which told stories or had specific orders, and if there were any different hidden possibilities. Weeks after I first tried Tool’s Holy Grail, I was in this thread, writing my own personal thoughts on A Perfect Circle’s album Thirteenth Step. I saw each track as another drug addict’s story, not as one particular person’s journey through addiction. I had read other interpretations online, some of which said that Thirteenth Step focused on one drug addict’s life. I didn’t feel this was possible, though. For the album to describe one man, the tracks would have to be in a different listing, in a chronological order of sorts. So I thought about each song’s lyrics and how they could be applied to the story of one man, a character who I call the Addict.

Just for good measure, here is Thirteenth Step’s original song order:
1. The Package
2. Weak and Powerless
3. The Noose
4. Blue
5. Vanishing
6. A Stranger
7. The Outsider
8. Crimes
9. The Nurse Who Loved Me
10. Pet
11. Lullaby
12. Gravity

Thus, I began to deconstruct the album as a whole. Instead of rearranging the album by connected the music, drawing spirals and parabolas, and using the Fibonacci Sequence, this alternate version of Thirteenth Step would be connected through the lyrics. Some tracks would stay in their general locations. Gravity and Pet would obviously appear in the second half, while The Package and Vanishing would remain in the first half, all judging by the meanings I had come up with for each song on the album.

Lullaby, I decided, would come first. A segue/extending ending from the preceding song Pet, it had a restless, dream like feeling to it. The only real words in the song, “Go back to sleep”, displayed a state of insomnia. The Addict was restless, and can’t bring himself to settle down. He needs a fix. Next would obviously come The Package, which describes the actual steps that the Addict must take in order to receive a parcel of drugs. Basically, he must lie, cheat, and steal. “Lie to get what I crave”. Having obtained his drug supply, the Addict immediately gets high. Whatever track listing that you personally follow, it can be immediately discerned that Vanishing describes the act of utilizing the drug. It’s trance-inducing quality and repeated lyrics draw listeners into the mindset of the Addict, who is under the influence. “Vanish, vanish into the air / Slowly disappear / Never really here” describe the actual mental state the Addict has while getting high.

Next, he decides to share his drugs with someone. A friend, possibly. They use the drugs together, but the Addict, once again under the influence, can only sit and watch as his female friend has a fatal overdose, told of in the chorus: “Call it aftermath, she’s turning blue / Such a lovely color for you / Call it aftermath, she’s turning blue / While I just sit and stare at you”. This is the key song in the Addict’s life to come. Because of his female friend’s death, the Addict is caught with his supply of drugs and sentenced to prison. The Addict’s jail sentence takes place in crimes, where other inmates (actually the voices of Billy, Jeordie, and Josh,) are heard around him. Overcome with anger, the Addict does the only thing he knows: he counts to ten. Counting to ten, which I stated in my previous evaluation of Thirteenth Step, is a common practice in anger management courses. In order to avoid unleashing violence because of anger, people are supposed to stop and count to ten. As the anger in the Addict’s voice increases while he counts, we have just learned something about him. He’s already been through rehabilitation programs, judging by his knowledge of the count-to-ten rule. He has a history of violence, and this raises the question of whether or not the Addict has previously hurt, or even killed, others in order to obtain his supplies of drugs.

Now out of prison, the Addict is on some form of probation. Therefore, he is unable to pull his normal moves and receive a new supply of drugs. Without them, he goes through withdrawal syndrome and states of shock, as his body must now cope without them. This is why Weak and Powerless comes next, a song that describes a drug user admitting his addiction to himself: “Desperate and ravenous / I’m so weak and powerless over you”. People around him watch his literal desperation, and he is outcasted in the song The Outsider. The speaker here is someone close to the Addict, striving to understand why the Addict has “Given into all these / Reckless dark desires”. Angry at his self-destructive, drug-related behavior, the speaker here simply does not want to watch the Addict kill himself, and therefore gives up hope on him.

Now, after the pounding onslaught of The Oustider, arguably the album's heaviest song, comes the soft, eerie, beautiful A Stranger. Now, the acoustic guitar is even more startling than it was after originally following Vanishing. After The Outsider, it is a humbling moment. Here, A Stranger feels like the Addict’s response to the person speaking to him in The Outsider. “…I formulate denials / Of your affect on me”. The Addict is lying to this person, trying to deny the fact that he is helpless to his addiction. However, this is no use, as the Addict checks in, or is forcibly checked in, to a rehabilitation program/clinic/hospital. There, the Addict is medicated and possibly given some extreme forms of therapy: “Say hello to the shrinking in your head / You can’t see it but you know it’s there, so don’t neglect it”. Also, as he begins to lose his mind, the Addict envisions love between he and one of the nurses.

Next is Gravity. Originally the album’s closing song, Gravity tells the story of a drug addict who has managed to successfully recover. And somehow, in some way, the Addict himself recovers, and leaves the hospital. The dream-like music of The Nurse Who Loved Me is carried on into Gravity, but is more refined and structured here. The Addict has taken his life back at last, and has returned down to Earth. However, the drug use, withdrawal, and subsequent rehabilitation took a vast toll on his body and his mind. The Addict, now a weak shell of a man, will never be the same again.

In The Noose, he is visited by an old friend. I believe the speaker in The Noose is the same person who spoke in The Outsider. The speaker is happy to find that the Addict has managed to recover from his drug addiction, and acknowledges this to him: “So glad to see you well / Overcome and completely silent now / With heaven’s help / You cast your demons out”. However, the speaker wonders how the Addict will atone for the crimes he committed before being incarcerated. This now solidifies the Addict’s past as a violent person, hinted at by the counting in Crimes. Even though he is now no longer actually addicted, the Addict has still broken laws, and possibly killed people. Suddenly, his problems have come around again, and essentially bitten him in the [color=white]a[/color]ss. “Your halo slipping down to choke you now”. By the end of this song, the Addict’s future is uncertain.

Pet now begins, the last song in this new order. This is where Thirteenth Step differs the most. Originally, it ended with Gravity, a signal of hope and a regaining of life for a former addict. Here, Pet ends the album in a grim way. His mind has never fully recovered from the insane state he was in during The Nurse Who Loved Me. He begins to imagine the lure of drugs that caused his addiction in the first place. The drugs promise the Addict many things: they won’t “let the boogeyman come” and will keep him safe from “pain, and truth, and choice, and other poison devils”. Once again, a key phrase reappears: “Go back to sleep”, words first heard in Lullaby when the Addict decided to leave for a fix. “Stay with me / Safe and ignorant / Just stay with me”. Now, the album opens and closes with the same words: “Go back to sleep”. As hard as he tries, the Addict cannot go back to sleep. He needs what he has always needed, one more fix. Whether or not he throws his life away and does get a new drug supply is left unanswered. However, the ending is, at best, bittersweet. The Addict is left with a choice: to stay clean, or to basically go back to the starting point, where he was at the very beginning.

This new order has changed the track listing to 11, 1, 5, 4, 8, 2, 7, 6, 9, 12, 3, 10.
1. Lullaby
2. The Package
3. Vanishing
4. Blue
5. Crimes
6. Weak and Powerless
7. The Outsider
8. A Stranger
9. The Nurse Who Loved Me
10. Gravity
11. The Noose
12. Pet

I hope you enjoyed reading this, and you enjoy trying this new order for yourself even more. Maybe I have thought too deeply into it. Maybe not. Either way, Thirteenth Step is a d[color=white]a[/color]mn fine album, and one of my favorites of all time.

– – Dan / BlindWriting

Whoa, I'll give that order a spin. That must have been hard work :thumb:

I'll give the new order a spin to. :)

One thing I'm not sure about though is having #11 as number 1... I find that to be a bit strange.

I personally just like the pre mixed 'Lullaby' into ' Pet' working. When they supported the Dftones, they played the former, then linke dit in well with the opening riff.

I've neglected APC for a while. I may have to set up that ordered playlist soon

I haven't played the new order yet, but wow...sounds like someone definetly took the time to think that out...

It's all the about the insomnia. Trying to get to sleep at 2 AM and then just thinking up stuff like this.

thats pretty good, i like the ending better

i too had thought of, and written for a paper in Creative Writing about the story of the addict

except mine had no rearraging, i forget most of the details, but the clincher was the first song "Get what i came for and im out the door again" to the second song "Weak and Powerless" and a few more between, and then at the end, the choice to live on in Gravity

but, i must hand it to you, you thought about it much more than i did.

I am beginning to think that the alternate tracklists are all a big spoof. If Maynard intended for Lateralus to be out of order, he wouldn't do it again with APC. I doubt either one are intentional, but it could still very well be true. :-/

/skeptical

[QUOTE=Dr. Jake Destructo]I am beginning to think that the alternate tracklists are all a big spoof. If Maynard intended for Lateralus to be out of order, he wouldn't do it again with APC. I doubt either one are intentional, but it could still very well be true. :-/

/skeptical[/QUOTE]
I don't really think Maynard intended for Thirteenth Step to have an alternate track list. This was just my response to the claims of a one-addict story.

Whether or not Maynard intended these alternate track listings, we may never know...I highly doubt the man would tell you, even if asked him...

Good job on the alternate order. I doubt it was a purposeful thing done by the band, but nonetheless an extremely intersting and cool spin on it. I will definately try it. Your story adds up very well.

/Was praying that you would not say Pet meant he started a famly and had kids ("Lay your head down child...I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons..")

I actually have some things to add to your story that go along with it well and would help prove it, but I can't be bothered to go into it now, it's late and I'm tired.

Are there any sites similar to toolshed.down.net? Or is it just hands down better than every other site and has everything there is to have already?

[QUOTE=Sliptallica]Are there any sites similar to toolshed.down.net? Or is it just hands down better than every other site and has everything there is to have already?[/QUOTE]

I personally think it's the best, because it's comprehensive, and doesn't have that BS that what's his name posts on Toolband...

[QUOTE=Kage]I also prefer Thirteenth Step over Mer De Noms, simply because it's a more well-rounded album than Mer De Noms. Mer has some of their greatest songs, but the last half is weaker than the first half and not near as consistent (if the last half had lived up to the first half in terms of greatness, it would probably be better), whereas Thirteenth Step was very much coherent as a full album, and also included some of their best songs.[/QUOTE]

i really like the style used in thirteenth step, all the songs really appeal to me and there is still a form of anger, in songs such as pet and the outsider. Mer De Noms is a great album, but not all the songs are of the same quality.

90% of albums out today are very inconsistant in song styling. one half heavier than the other, it wasn't bad planning on apc's part, they just put the songs in that order because of how it felt to them as they were in the post production stages. i highly doubt after all maynard did with tool that he screwed up. they had a plan and went through with it. i personally like mer de noms better than thirteenth step but dont hate 13th. everything is done for a reason especially with maynard behind the console.

I didn't mean in terms of heaviness/lightness or style. It has more to do with how well the songs are writen, regardless of the style they're written in. Most of the songs on Mer de Noms had a pretty consistent feel, but I felt that a few of the latter songs on Mer De Noms seemed just a little haph-hazard and not as carefully planned out and well-executed as songs like Hollow, Magdalena, Rose, Orestes, etc.

Random, but true:

About a month ago, i was playing basketball in my gym class. My teacher usually brings disco and funk cds to play while we shoot hoops. One day he forgot his cds. i happened to have Ænima on me at the time...

How'd that work out? Did it appeal to anybody?

I've thought about bringing a Tool album to gym class...