[QUOTE=jazzfunkboy]what does teh term "ALT" mean when applied to chords and scales? is it when you alter a scale to suit your purposes?[/QUOTE]


Alt = "altered"

An altered chord is a 7th chord of any kind with alterations, including b5, #5, b9, and #9.

Examples:G7#9 G7(#9, #5), G7b9, G13(#9, b5)...

[QUOTE=pianoplyr77]Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?[/QUOTE]

Beginner chromaticism:

Take basic progressions... ii V I, or even 12 bar blues, and play corresponding arpeggios over each chord. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 (for ii-V-I) or Bb7, Eb7, F7 (for 12 bar). 12-bar is better for beginners.

Play a Bb7 arepggio over Bb7, an Eb7 arpeggio over Eb7, etc. Work out shapes for each arpeggio, as you would scales.

Then, begin to add chromatics. The b3 over each chord. So you have Bb7 arpeggio, along with a Db (the b3) to go with it. Easy chromatic there. Then, apply the b5 chromatic over each chord. So, to Bb7 arpeggio you add E, to the Eb7 arpeggio you add G, and for the F7 arpeggio you add B.

Then, try adding the 7th as a passing tone. To the Bb7 arpeggio, add A, to the Eb7 arpeggio, add D, and to the F7 arpeggio, add E.

Then, you can add in the perfet fourth to help you get smooother transitions.

That's how I learned.

[QUOTE=rhcpcure2826]Alt = "altered"

An altered chord is a 7th chord of any kind with alterations, including b5, #5, b9, and #9.

Examples:G7#9 G7(#9, #5), G7b9, G13(#9, b5)...[/QUOTE]
Just clarifying this for some jazz newbs, one can [i]only[/i] use the b5, the #5, the b9 or the #9, or a mixture of several. They are called alterations, like rhcpcure2826 said. It's based off the altered scale, or 7th mode of the melodic minor, that goes 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7, and is a favorite scale of many modernists because of its eerie sound and tension. What's great about it, is that because it just reeks of tension, chromaticisms work far better here than anywhere else, and it is actually relatively easy to get away with playing [i]any note possible[/i] over this one chord, provided you approach it in a logical maner.

[QUOTE=Soulfly666]Is tritone substitution only used for dominant chords or is it just more common?[/QUOTE]

Only dominant. Here's why:

The strongest tones of each chord are respectively (strongest to weakest):

1. Third
2. Seventh
3. Extension(s)
4. Root
5. Fifth

A dom. chord's degrees are 1-3-5-b7. Let's take a G7 chord:

G-B-D-F. This means that B (the third) and F (the 7th) are the strongest degrees. Most important, if you will. There is a tritone between the 3rd and 7th in a dominant chord, to to the fact that the 7th is flat. So, if we take a G7 chord, and find the 7th chord a tritone up (Db7), we have the notes:
Db, F, Gb, B. Notice, the F and B have been retained and the Db7 chord, when used properly, may be substituted for a G7 chord.

So, why can't we do this with major chords? Looking at Cmaj7, for example, we have C-E-G-B. The strongest degrees are then E and B. We should retain those notes for the substitute chords. However, looking at the maj7 chord a tritone up, F#maj7, we have F#, A, C#, and E#. This is why tritone sub works only with dominant chords.

The tritone is the only interval that is the same up as it is going down. Which is why this works.

Not sure if this counts as actual theory, but shouldn't a good jazz solo have structure to it? Solid beginning, laid-back middle, climactic end, that sort of thing?

I guess it only bothers me when there's a drum solo and it just sort of...sucks. There's really no other way to put it. I'm positive you can shape a drum solo. So why don't people do it more often? If I wanted to hear incessant banging, I'd put down the guitar and pick up the sticks.

^Yeah but there shouldn't be a "standard" structure for soloing, you know.

I know, that was just a generic example. You could do all kinds of crazy stuff.

[QUOTE=spastic]Yep, the entire jazz crew is pretty young :thumb:.[/QUOTE]

you guys are freaking amazing...ive played for about a year and a half and my teacher has barely touched on any of this stuff with me...he must know im a dummy. haha well thanks for all of your schtuff cuz its really helpful :thumb: (esp since my teacher is currently touring in italy)

Im taking a jazz improv class this year, and while trying to get prepared for it, I came across this site. Its really helpful for playing jazz, and learning theory.

[url]http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/[/url]

Oh yes, to expand upon my tritone substitution post: Tritone sub. obviously works with diminished chords. However, not with m7b5 chords.

There must be a tritone between the 3rd and the 7th.

This includes: Dominant chords (1, 3, 5, b7) and diminished chords (1, b3, b5, bb7).

[QUOTE=Brewer14]Im taking a jazz improv class this year, and while trying to get prepared for it, I came across this site. Its really helpful for playing jazz, and learning theory.

[url]http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/[/url][/QUOTE]

Ah man beaten to it. I was just about to post that as well. That is a very helpful site. Full of theory, history and improv lessons as well.

Does anyone know where I can find some good backing tracks for jazz ,and some rock/blues

The Jamey Aebersold series is very good and has backing tracks for a lot of standards. You might want to check those out.

is there a chance thats on soulseek

suppose I played Cm7-F7-G9-Amb5
could I play C Dorian-F Mixolydian-G Mixolydian-A Locrian


but this would this be technically
Bb Ionian with emphasis on Cm chord tones
Bb Ionian with emphasis on F7 chord tones
C Ionian with emphasis on G chord tones
and A# Ionian with emphasis on Amb5 chord tones

or I could I also play Cm Penta- F Blues- G Penta- A Locrian

^It's best not to look at a chord and think "corresponding mode"...

You should first look at chord tones.

C Dorian is good for any ii-V change (in this case, Cm7-F7). However, you should concentrate more on changing your C Dorian to a Dorian-related chord outline and include other notes more as passing tones. You should also include various chromatics... altered tones... whatever. But if you want to retain the idea of Dorian, include Cm7 as well as A (6) and Gb (b5) and also F (4). So it will be more Dorian-sounding than anything else (at least it's easier to gain a Dorian sound).

But playing A Locrian over Am7b5 isn't a sure bet, surprisingly. Your efficeincy in outlining chord tones is compromised, and the sounds left for that scale to deliver are more Bb Ionian than A Locrian, IMO.

The fact of the matter is, if you just play a series of modes that are all relative to eachother (the only non relative mode is G7), then your playing will be less involved, and sound more like you're just playing Bb Ionian (minus the G Mixolydian).

I'm not trying to say that you must move in this way with the chords without fail... I don't do that at all in my playing... but you're obviously going on a chord outlining flight, so you may as well do it more efficiently.

Also, B Ionian is not C Dorian. You should disasociate modes with the corresponding major scale. However, if you play a series of relative modes, it will sound more like the relative Ionian than anything.

Over that G9, you have a ton of options... I'd work around the coressponding arpeggio as well as G Dorian.

But, for the Cm7-F7 bit, I'd do something like this: Over Cm7, try an Ebmaj7 idea. And over F7, try an Emaj7 idea that's identical to the Ebmaj7 idea, but a half step up. This delivers the Aeolian, then Altered sound. If you were to resolve to a Bb instead of G9, you might also try the original Ebmaj7 idea, but for Fmaj7 instead, to deliver a Lydian feel.

thanks ill try some of those ideas

What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?

I got a question. I been looking for standards to learn and the problem i've encountered is that they all seem to have too many chords or too little for my purposes. Dave Brubeck's Take 5 is a good example. Cool song but no real sense of chords changing to play with. At the other extreme is I got rhythm where you change chord about 40 times before you reach the end and I can't memorize all that. Any solutions to my problem, or just examples of standards with less changes will be much appreciated.

[QUOTE=ColdShotStrat]What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?[/QUOTE]
a 9th is a 2nd, and a 13th is a 6th, so anything that would display the correct 13th, and the correct 9th. if it says C major 9, play a C major 7arpeggio and include the 9th in it. the C major scale is the best bet over that chord. if its b9, most likely its going to be C7b9 and your best bet would be the spanish phrygian. if it says #9 you're going to play you're most likely going to play a Lydian #9 meaning the chord is a C major #9. just add the correct 9th on to the triad you already play over a major chord. same with 13ths, C13 is a domiant chord with all the scale degrees of C dominant, C major 13 is a major chord with a major 13th added. hope that helps

[QUOTE=Tarquin1986]I got a question. I been looking for standards to learn and the problem i've encountered is that they all seem to have too many chords or too little for my purposes. Dave Brubeck's Take 5 is a good example. Cool song but no real sense of chords changing to play with. At the other extreme is I got rhythm where you change chord about 40 times before you reach the end and I can't memorize all that. Any solutions to my problem, or just examples of standards with less changes will be much appreciated.[/QUOTE]
i have this same problem, i'm just now learning how to get out of it. You cant recognize chords individualy, you have to look at the context of the chord. In jazz there are a tone of 2,5,1's, if you can rocognize these patturns you can describe an entire song to your self by only using scale degrees. a 2,5,1 in the key of C is a Dmin7, G7, Cmaj. any minor chord folowed by a dominant chord a 4th away is a 2-5 even if it dosent conclude into the right chord. so now that we've established that we're in C maj let think of it like this.

2-5 into C, 6 dom ,2-5 of 1 into 3,2-5 into 2, 2-5 into C.
that is 13 chord, but how much easier is that than to remember each individual chord.

Thanks, I'll try that.

when is anybody gonna figure out that posting this **** isn't helping anyone and it's only creating an "i know more than you" competition? posting one simple scale suggestion for a chord doesn't help anyone. it just adds more confusion. that person will not be able to get away from that one scale when he/she sees that one chord now.

my suggestion, stop giving your "lessons" and leave the teaching to the professionals - or to someone that knows what they're talking about, not what they picked up one day in theory class.

of course, simple questions and answers are ok, but the other stuff is just a bunch of cocky bull****.

i just thought i'd add that C.O. sullivan knows what he's talkin about :thumb: don't think chord=scale.

[QUOTE=Saxamassima3]

my suggestion, stop giving your "lessons" and leave the teaching to the professionals - or to someone that knows what they're talking about, not what they picked up one day in theory class.[/QUOTE]


I thought that was what the thread was for, to give tips. Obviously there are very few professionals on these message boards, so I think everyone should be free to post what they know.

[QUOTE=ColdShotStrat]What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?[/QUOTE]

They're just dominant chords, in essence... so you have countless options. First, you should look at what a dominant chord is--

Dominant chords in basic non-jazz theory are generally meant to be used in a "tension/resolution" context. This means that a G7 is most logically followed by a C major chord. However, in jazz, dominant chords are used for many reasons. They're commonly used as the I, IV, V, and VI chords (that is, in the key of C, that C F, G, and A would be C7, F7, G7, and A7, usually). In jazz, dominant chords also work as substitutes for minor chords. At other times, they are used for tritone substitution. Also, they are used for the tension/resolution idea... you might have G7 #9 #5 lead into Cm7, a harmonic minor movement. So basically, dominant chords are used in many contexts in jazz.

Now, if you're using, say, G13 in the key of C, then you could use G Dorian ideas, G Mixolydian, C# Lydian Dominant (Melodic tritone substitution), as well as altered scale ideas.

The key to soloing while following harmonic form is to have a good idea of what notes work consistently... this would be the corresponding mode, chord tones, etc... so you'd work around those in the beginning. Then you could consider other things like the altered scale... and creating ideas.

For example, if you have G7 followed by Cm7, you could play Abm7 tones followed by Db7 tones over the G7 chord. So melodic substitutions should be considered.

Just some things to look at.

Im really having trouble memorizing all the notes on the fret board and it seems when i get into an improvising situation i cant remember where notes are and when i do im already a few bars behind and it sounds bad. So I was wondering if anyone had any ways they could tell me on how they got used to improvising and thinking about the notes at the same time easily and also how did they memorize the notes on the fretboard.

[QUOTE=ColdShotStrat]Im really having trouble memorizing all the notes on the fret board and it seems when i get into an improvising situation i cant remember where notes are and when i do im already a few bars behind and it sounds bad. So I was wondering if anyone had any ways they could tell me on how they got used to improvising and thinking about the notes at the same time easily and also how did they memorize the notes on the fretboard.[/QUOTE]


that just takes work, memorizing the notes. in time you will know them anyways if you just keep playing in that setting.

but as far as improvising and knowing the notes- learn your scales and say them aloud.

but if you just keep playing it becomes second nature. so give it some time i guess.

Nicee

Heres a question---

Does anyone know of any theory books that take you all the way from baby steps to the most complex stuff and every detail in between?

play metal lol jazz is boring