How does killing an unborn baby affect no-one but the mother?

That's killing another person who has the potential to contribute to society just because their mother is too selfish to raise a child.

It is often not as simple as that, and you're being just as closeminded as the pro-choicers by thinking as such. But circumstance exists where it would be better off to have that choice. If, due to economic restraint, that baby were to be born into a lower class lifestyle where it'll never attain much of anything, what is the point. And it isn't a baby until it's born regardless. Especially early on, it's simply a collection of cells. I'm not trying to propagate late term abortions, but if you can nip it in the bud no harm no foul.

It's not being closed-minded. I just do not stand at all for the murder of an unborn child.

As for the "what is the point" argument, with lower income families.

The point is that tons of great people have been raised impoverished, and even if the child doesn't succeed, they're at least given the right to live which nobody, not even their own mother has the right to take away.

And I agree with early term abortions, tbh.

Well, you can tell me that you don't stand at all for abortion, but murder is the wrong choice of word there. Murder exists as the killing of one human being by another human being. Abortion is the killing of what is to be a human being. That's why our birthdate isn't designated as the time our parents ****ed, but rather when you pop out of that slit between your mother's legs.

[QUOTE=witchxrapist;17701026]That's killing another person who has the potential to contribute to society just because their mother is too selfish to raise a child.[/QUOTE]
you are clearly too simple minded

I don't mean anything by this argument though. It's just a difference of opinion that can't be resolved and I respect yours just as much as I respect mine. But I can't adopt yours as I still believe in mine, so arguing something like this is futile. It's a matter of ethical philosophy that can't really be justified one way or the other in a way that proves the other side wrong. Every argument you or I make will be countered by something that the other believes. And some of your arguments simply won't stand for me as I don't see things in the same light.

[quote=iamrockzorz;17701010]Sure, in the context of the original defining terms of what a "republican" is, your point is valid. But the republican party today in no way stands for what it used to. The Republican party is not only conservative as an economic system, but my main irk with that system of government is it's restrictive moral philosophies. It inhibits personal liberties like gay rights, and women's right to do what they will with their body.

And if america practices a very liberal, loose, vanilla form of Christianity, that doesn't change the fact that all forms of institutionalized religion are inhibiting to personal freedom and progress. I've gone back and forth with religion, but in the end it simply is an opiate for the masses. It doesn't do anything but lull people into a false sense of security. If people think that they should lead a certain, restrictive lifestyle, in hope for ultimately attaining the gift of everlasting life, they've wasted the only lifetime that they've been granted. (imo, as an atheist) Spirituality, on the other hand, ain't bad.[/quote]
Yeah, most republicans are neo-cons now. The two parties aren't that much different, hence our problem.


Eh, I'm not sure how religion would impeded someone's personal freedom in first world countries in any serious way. I do think religion can blind people, but there is also no denying its positive effects that it had in the past. It helped a lot of civilizations stay together. This includes polytheistic religions as well. So, in my view, religion is not desirable (especially monotheism), but I don't think its 100% bad.



About abortion, I only think it should happen when a woman's life is in danger, or if the parents are mentally deficient or too irresponsible (read: deviant) to have one. Otherwise, if you are normal, it should live. There are consequences to actions. People need to learn that.

[QUOTE=flesh;17701054]you are clearly too simple minded[/QUOTE]

Yeah dude, that's a brilliant argument.

Valuing human life is simple minded.

Also, if you don't believe in socialism you're uneducated, remember?

And if you don't think hanging from trees on hooks makes you cool, you're ignorant.

how about that demented shaman

[QUOTE=Gnarmageddon;17701080]how about that demented shaman[/QUOTE]

He's sick. Wildsoul would be good with him but he jungles a lot.

[QUOTE=iamrockzorz;17701046]Well, you can tell me that you don't stand at all for abortion, but murder is the wrong choice of word there. Murder exists as the killing of one human being by another human being. Abortion is the killing of what is to be a human being. That's why our birthdate isn't designated as the time our parents ****ed, but rather when you pop out of that slit between your mother's legs.[/QUOTE]

How is a fetus not a human? Just curious.

[quote=igniteyouravail;17701082]he's sick. Wildsoul would be good with him but he jungles a lot.[/quote]

brb soloing kongor

[QUOTE=Gnarmageddon;17701085]brb soloing kongor[/QUOTE]

lol, wildsoul can. I think if DS got enough +STR items he would be able to solo him.

[QUOTE=IgniteYourAvail;17701086]lol, wildsoul can. I think if DS got enough +STR items he would be able to solo him.[/QUOTE]

i doubt, his heals and arcane hide are on like 10 second cds

[QUOTE=Gnarmageddon;17701089]i doubt, his heals and arcane hide are on like 10 second cds[/QUOTE]

Yeah, true. You're not doing enough damage to him you'd probably run out of mana pretty quick. If you dominated a few creeps with whispering helm first, your HW would do enough damage to him for sure.

can you kite him?

Kind of, he resets if you move him too far away but he doesn't get any health back. By the time you get him to a good amount of health, the other team will probably gank you.

ah, lame. i guess it would make sense to just have more people help you anyway, kiting him would be way too risky and time consuming

Yeah. The only people who can really solo kongor in a timely fashion are War Beast and Ophelia.

lol would be so funny if ophelia could just MC kongor

[QUOTE=witchxrapist;17701084]How is a fetus not a human? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

From my own ethical view on the matter, a fetus is not human until it is born. It has no rational ability to perceive. It is not conscious. It is not human. That's just my opinion

[quote=iamrockzorz;17701111]From my own ethical view on the matter, a fetus is not human until it is born. It has no rational ability to perceive. It is not conscious. It is not human. That's just my opinion[/quote]
Well, a 9 month old child is conscious and perceives things.

Uhm? That point doesn't say anything about my point.

Well, there is a difference between a fetus and a grown baby inside of a mother close to being born. You said you didn't think it was a human until it came out of her.

itt people who think USSR represents Communism and not Bolshevik dictatorships.

The Bolsheviks had their own little philosophies going on, but they did implement what would be considered Communistic policies.

[QUOTE=witchxrapist;17701079]Valuing human life is simple minded.[/QUOTE]
the situation is far more complex than just "oh too lazy to raise a kid"

[QUOTE=Mr. Ron;17701153]The Bolsheviks had their own little philosophies going on, but they did implement what would be considered Communistic policies.[/QUOTE]

not really. they used the term Communism to justify their means. that's the only real connection.


anyway omg how many posts has come here. the post in which Ben is declaring how much he hates me was especially awesome. this is the most entertaining this thread has ever been.

you didn't used to lurk much then

[QUOTE=flesh;17701161]the situation is far more complex than just "oh too lazy to raise a kid"[/QUOTE]

Please, read the one part of my multiple posts that isn't too serious, and then use it to prove that I'm closed-minded.

[QUOTE=iamrockzorz;17701111]From my own ethical view on the matter, a fetus is not human until it is born. It has no rational ability to perceive. It is not conscious. It is not human. That's just my opinion[/QUOTE]

A developed fetus can't feel?

A developed fetus is human in every way, shape, or form other than the fact it isn't concious [I]yet[/I].

I'm about to go to dinner so I'll respond to all of this stuff in a little while, but for now I'll say that Communism is supposed to be international. It doesn't have to work on a national scale, it's really just supposed to be a set of interlocking small communities.

Also, Ronald, back to our old debate we had once about overpopulation: if the world does collapse within our lifetimes, and I too get the feeling it will (no ideas I have about redistribution will be accepted in time), I'm pretty sure we'll see Marx's theories about class being the ultimate divider be proven. All of the farmers will grab some guns and defend theirnow super valuable food supplies and everyone without property will go apepoop to get it.

Interesting how the proletariat revolt won't come about due to frustration with capitalism, but with a complete collapse of society based around property because "production for production's sake" ran civilization into the ground.

More later. I enjoy political discussion in here more than in PNWI.

I like political discussion in here more than PNWI because there's not a crowd demanding everyone see that they're right, which seems to be the deal with PNWI.

zackly

dinner time bros

om nom nom nom

i just ate mad fried veggies with soy sauce

stir fry if you will

[quote=NOTindietrash;17701185]not really. they used the term Communism to justify their means. that's the only real connection.


anyway omg how many posts has come here. the post in which Ben is declaring how much he hates me was especially awesome. this is the most entertaining this thread has ever been.[/quote]
There are different kinds and brands of Communism/socialism, Bolshivikism is one of them. They share common ideals that are relatable when it comes to the economy, the position of the workers and anti-capitalistic ideas.


[quote=cobert;17701322]I'm about to go to dinner so I'll respond to all of this stuff in a little while, but for now I'll say that Communism is supposed to be international. It doesn't have to work on a national scale, it's really just supposed to be a set of interlocking small communities.

Also, Ronald, back to our old debate we had once about overpopulation: if the world does collapse within our lifetimes, and I too get the feeling it will (no ideas I have about redistribution will be accepted in time), I'm pretty sure we'll see Marx's theories about class being the ultimate divider be proven. All of the farmers will grab some guns and defend theirnow super valuable food supplies and everyone without property will go apepoop to get it.

Interesting how the proletariat revolt won't come about due to frustration with capitalism, but with a complete collapse of society based around property because "production for production's sake" ran civilization into the ground.

More later. I enjoy political discussion in here more than in PNWI.[/quote]
I don't deny that Marx may have been right on some class issues. Classes exist, and sometimes they oppress others. Thing is, I think classes need to exist. Also, a world collapse will happen gradually. You can actually see it slowly happening already. It won't be sudden. Unless an asteroid hits us or something.

Gonna try to change the subject. Anyone like Blut aus Nord?

Hell yes.

First black metal band I got really into.

Mappy, I love [I]Ultima Thulee[/I]. Do they have anything else that sounds sorta like it?

Memoria Vetusta I & II.

And check out In The Mist and Yggdrisil by Vlad, it's their main song writer's demo material before he found a full band.