Well I made a thread about this awhile ago but it was basically about double standards in writing. The greats can use simple rhymes, and there "great" but anyone on here and it's a forced rhyme.

[QUOTE=Bob Dylan "Abandoned Love"]
I can hear the turning of the key
I've been deceived by the clown inside of me.
I thought that he was righteous but he's vain
Oh, something's a-telling me I wear the ball and chain.[/QUOTE]

He rhymed Key and Me!

The thing is though, that the "greats" also use brilliant imagery, many poetic devices(rhyme is just one of them) and all that kind of thing. Theyre also great story tellers, in Dylan's case.

[QUOTE]If someone hears something cliche in a song, do they stand up and say, "THAT LINE WAS CLICHE THIS SONG IS TERRIBLE"?[/QUOTE]

Of course not - one dodgy image does not a bad song make, but I'll probably enjoy the song a little less. An example of this is Jimmy Eat World - Jim Adkins' writing over the past couple of albums has fallen away somewhat - I still enjoy the music, but lyrically he has kind of stagnated. It doesn't mean I hate Jimmy Eat World, I still enjoy the music just as much, it just means I don't really enjoy their newer stuff as much as the old albums, as the lyrics aren't as good.

Another example is a band called The Blackout. A friend recommended them to me, so I gave them a listen - musically I quite liked the track I heard, but at one point in the bridge, the lyrics were along the lines of:
[I]"I die
You cry
We Lie
Everytime."[/I]
That ruined the band for me - I haven't listened to them since, so I guess it's the extent of the cliche - a really horrible one might put someone off, but a minor one every now and then isn't going to end your songwriting career.

[QUOTE=El Goodo]Well I made a thread about this awhile ago but it was basically about double standards in writing. The greats can use simple rhymes, and there "great" but anyone on here and it's a forced rhyme.

[QUOTE=Bob Dylan "Abandoned Love"]
I can hear the turning of the key
I've been deceived by the clown inside of me.
I thought that he was righteous but he's vain
Oh, something's a-telling me I wear the ball and chain. [/QUOTE]

He rhymed Key and Me![/QUOTE]

Yes, it's a horrible rhyme. Even Bob Dylan forces a rhyme every now and then. I won't go into it now, as I don't fancy a big argument on it, but I don't really like Dylan's stuff much at all - he has his moments, but on the whole I don't think he deserves the level of adulation he gets.

The thing is, when you use examples like that is that you're assuming that because it's written by someone famous for songwriting that it MUST be an amazing lyric that no-one else can touch.
Be honest, we see stanzas of that quality or better most weeks here - not because we have brilliant writers here or anything like that, (although we do have some excellent writers at times) but because it's not really that amazing.
Look at it objectively, break it down, it's not really that complex or well-written. Perhaps I have an unfair advantage here as I've never heard this particular song, and therefore aren't putting it to music, but yes, those are forced rhymes. Personally, I disliked the vain/chain rhyme more than the me/key rhyme anyway.

On a completely unrelated note, is it just me or am I holding up the UK end of things on my own in here at the moment?

I closed that thread because apparently you can't read the frigging guide I took so much of my time to write.

[b][size=7]>:|[/b][/size]

[QUOTE=El_Goodo]Well I made a thread about this awhile ago but it was basically about double standards in writing. The greats can use simple rhymes, and there "great" but anyone on here and it's a forced rhyme.



He rhymed Key and Me![/QUOTE]Look, when people say [i]x[/i] and [i]y[/i] are forced rhymes, just know that most of the time it's an empty criticism put out there to make the person look like he's being helpful. Unless it's a truly horrid rhyme, and I'll get to that later, most of the time [i]it doesn't matter[/i].

I think you have to look at the rest of the line before you go saying something is forced. The rhymes in the Dylan quote are simplistic, and there is nothing wrong with simplistic, and there sure as hell is no rule that says simplistic means forced.

I think the reason Dylan can get away with it is that there's more going on than just rhymes. He's got something to say, something really interesting, and the lines tend to be longer so those familiar sounds don't pair up as often. The end result is that those recurring sounds ease things along, but because of their relative distance they don't become annoying.

One indication that a rhyme is forced is if a particular word is used improperly, or if grammar is inverted for the sake of the rhyme. If Dylan would've inserted a word like [i]thee[/i] in a piece that is otherwise modern sounding, then it would be okay to say it's a forced rhyme because it doesn't fit within that modern context.

We had a similar discussion in this thread some time ago, only it was about the Beatles.

Hi everyone, I'm back for 24 hours!

Tomorrow I'm heading off to Ireland on my family holiday, I've spent the past 2 weeks climbing throughout Great Britain. It's been absolutely awesome!

I might not be around too much when I get back, as I've decided to start a rather large project. That project being a musical. I sat down with a pen while away and said to myself, wouldn't it be great to write a musical. Miraculously it actually appears to be taking off. I'm guessing it's going to take about a year and a half to write at the rate I'm going at the moment.


Hope you're all well, and writing!!

Timmy

What's up guy, post a piece when you get back, the scenery sounds amazing, and as we all know well, scenery is a fantastic subject to write about.....;) Anyway, Ireland is where'd I'd like to visit someday, ancestors and what not.

[QUOTE=slack]
We had a similar discussion in this thread some time ago, only it was about the Beatles.[/QUOTE]

Beatles are my favourite band, and I would never argue with someone who said they weren't amazing lyric writers. Alot of their good lines come from the feeling of the song...like for instance I love the line

[QUOTE=Strawberry Fields Forever]
Living is easy with eyes closed,
Misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone,
but it all works out[/QUOTE]

and a simpler one I like is;

[QUOTE=I'm Looking Through You]
Why tell me why did you not treat me right?
Love has a nasty habit of disapearing overnight,[/QUOTE]

But really this has nothing to do with anything...

The Beatles are chilled.
Anyone listen to some more modern country, stuff like Toby Kieth?

[quote]Beatles are my favourite band, and I would never argue with someone who said they weren't amazing lyric writers.[/quote]It was more to do with imagery. I looked at my favorite lyricists and I noticed there wasn't very much descriptiveness in their writing, not like you see around here. Instead there was a lot of inner dialogue, thoughts, funny or strange observations. The point being, Beatles lyrics would be ripped on here, which I found amusing all things considered. Would we have such classic tunes if Lennon and McCartney weren't fearless when it came to writing stupid shi[font="verdana"]t[/font]?

Stupid shi[b]t[/b] is all I know how to write.

What are you talking about. Your new one rules, although I didn't know what the title meant until I googled it. Very cool painting.

well i'm a subtledagger poseur

I'm excited for the month of September, 3 concerts (probably only see 2) and I start college. Anyone else have any sexy plans?

i'm going to sit.

What concerts?

bright eyes, animal collective, and iron and wine

[QUOTE=slack]What concerts?[/QUOTE]
Omaha - September 6th -[I] M. Ward[/I] (Doubt I'll make it, first day of class, but we'll see, I would absolutely LOVE to get to this show, but it's a throw up)
Sioux Falls - September 8th -[I] Bob Dylan[/I]
Omaha - September 29th - [I]Two Gallants[/I]

[QUOTE=Eliminator Jr.]bright eyes, animal collective, and iron and wine[/QUOTE]

Seen 'em twice and they're fantastic, never seen em but like 'em, would die to see Sam Beam whispering over his guitar.

from the stuff i've seen animal collective would be pretty awesome live

m. warrrrrrrd

woot woot

Animal Collective played at the same time as Roger Waters, so I didn't see them. Would've liked to though.

wait

you saw roger waters over animal collective?

[QUOTE=Eliminator Jr.]well i'm a subtledagger poseur[/QUOTE]
Psh

posh

piece.

I cant write. Im taking this to tips and questions.

I'm pretty poseur and shi.

I'm home :)

Not much to talk about really, Ireland was cool but nothing special. Haven't written anything in a week, the first time I've done that in a long time; but now I'm full of ideas and ready to get on with the new project.

Dunno if I told you about my Work Experience placement that I went on towards the end of the school year; I went to a local theatre, looking at a load of the technical stuff. As some of you will know I do a fair bit of tech work in various theatres.

This placement was awesome, and they basically said to me 'We've been really impressed will you come back and do some work with us'

I had a phone message waiting for me when I got back from Ireland;

'Hi Tim, it's the Theatre. The UK tour of Annie starts here next week, can you come along and give us a hand.'

I jumped at the chance, so I'm in the theatre most of this week. And then, even better;

'We've also got a gig that we need you for if possible. It's at the castle so if you can get along on Bank Holiday Monday...'

I phone up, 'yeah it's just a small thing, one night of Status Quo, you up for it?'

As you can guess, I said yes...It's gonna be another awesome week :D

Timmy

[quote]Ireland was cool but nothing special.[/quote]wtf omg come to nebraska and then we'll talk about nothing special. :)

Looks like I'll be posting in S&L under this account...