[QUOTE=Nightvision]Christ, emex is like a damn soap opera these days. I leave to spend a few days playing tennis and cricket, and suddenly the pit's closed.

Mind you, I'm not really that bothered - I only posted there if there were decent folks in there - some of the aussie guys were pretty funny.

Not like in here - all the Aussies here are jerks. ;)[/QUOTE]
:cool:

[QUOTE=Nightvision]You know it's true really. Especially that Perfect Sonnet guy. What a fag, [B]everyone knows Bright Eyes is emo and emo is gay.[/B]

I'm actually feeling vaguely inspired today, so I might do a few short critiques if I get time a bit later. :)[/QUOTE]

I hope that isn't a serious statement.

me neither. wow.

[QUOTE=False Advertising]I hope that isn't a serious statement.[/QUOTE]
He's obviously making fun of APS.

APS deserves it though.

Ouch, what did I ever do to you guys?

EDIT: I'm going to record some guitar/screaming stuff tomorrow that touches on emo foundations. So I'll post the link up if that's not against the rules?

Long as it's in the community thread I don't care.

There's a new song up on my Sounclick btw: [url]http://www.soundclick.com/burtonwagner[/url].

Wow, theyre awesome.

Thanks, "Sentinel" is the start to the new album, it'll probably just be that song but about forty to fifty minutes. The others are from my first CD and there's a song for an indie film my friend made in there.

Yeah, I listened to the new stuff after I saw one of your bulletins. Good stuff as I would expect

Awesome stuff Subtle...Kinda different to what I usually listen to, but I really enjoyed it! Keep it up!

Timmy

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger]Long as it's in the community thread I don't care.

There's a new song up on my Sounclick btw: [url]http://www.soundclick.com/burtonwagner[/url].[/QUOTE]awesome stuff

Thanks to both of you, glad you like it.

[QUOTE=SubtleDagger][url]http://www.soundclick.com/burtonwagner[/url].[/QUOTE]

really good. only listened to a sentinel's eyes, but i like what i hear.

Burt's a robot, therefore he makes good, listenable music.

well i've listened to it all, and robot or not, its realy cool.

Thanks to both of you (not FA).

22,999

I'll ask in here, rather than make a thread;

is a that i think a song is unoriginal a valid criticism?

i think it is, but what are other views?

i think that if a piece is unoriginal, then it undermines its purpose as a piece of (and lets face it all forms of lyrics are) poetry. unless you can shed new light, or bring something new to the table, what is the point of flogging a dead horse?
i realise there are counter arguements to this, but what are they?
e.g. "its the way i really feel" or "its a big enough topic, for example love"

so, you tell me, is it a valid criticism or not?

I think it is a valid criticism as long as you can back it up. I think as you get more specific with your subject matter and you actually start telling [i]stories[/i], you know, like Dylan, Waits, and Springsteen, concern for originality and what is and is not cliche, all that goes out the window because it's real life, or seems that way. That's how it seems to me. I think when writer's opine about grandiose topics with equally grand language they subject themselves to the kind of criticism you mention. I don't know why it seems that way. Maybe because none of it seems authentic and it [i]sounds[/i] like another rant from a kid on his soapbox.

We're all working with the same old ideas, really. It's how we interpret them that makes the difference. I could write about death forever and never worry about being original as long as I make an effort to be specific.

I wouldn't advise people to stress over originality so much. It'll happen sooner or later. Just keep your eyes open and actually think about shi[font="verdana"]t[/font] once in awhile.

[QUOTE]It's how we interpret them that makes the difference[/QUOTE]

this bit i completely agree with, a topic as broad based and subjective as death, love, life etc is so huge that the facets it can be examined from seem endless, e.g. emily dickinson wrote alot about death, shakespeare's sonnets include a hell of a lot about love, and the romantics looked at life from hundreds of angles, yet all are celebrated as original.

but to your story suggestion, is it not vital that the story is in itself original in some way? that the writer use either brilliant imagery or an insightful metaphor, and so on.
for example, and i hate to use this, as its not a great example, but its the first i could think of;
dan brown's angels and demons compared to the da vinci cide. both are very similar, and one could argue that if angels and demons had reached a larger audience, the da vinci code would not have been as successful, due to the stark similarity between both books, and the unoriginal nature of angels and demons.

or you could look at poetry. most major poetic movements evolve from being original admidst an environment; (i know my timings off a bit here) from the romantic age, the metaphysical poets were born, bringing a different message, a differrent and [I]in that age [/I]an original branch of poetry, and achieved success for it.

so therefore, originality becomes a valid criticism, as it becomes vital to keep the piece fresh to make it worth reading

[quote]but to your story suggestion, is it not vital that the story is in itself original in some way?[/quote]I think once you get into the specifics of a story, you can't help but be original. It's inevitable. Everything has it's own little quirk, and it's up to you, the writer, to take that quirk and totally [font="verdana"]f[/font]uck it up until it's either really weird or really funny. Then maybe add a little poetic flair, a few pretty phrases, and you've got yourself a decent piece of writing.

Aside from this, isn't originality just a mish-mash of old ideas?

i have come to a conclusion

i am the worst songwriter ever

edit: to slack - agreed on both counts

[QUOTE]I think once you get into the specifics of a story, you can't help but be original. [I]and the rest[/I][/QUOTE]

i think its the ability to "**** it up" and the degree to which it is f[I]u[/I]cked, which dictates the success of the writer. for example, Duffy is hailed as one of the best contempary poets, and the way she reinterprets old ideas, most notably in the world's wife, shows her consumate skill at writing from new, in her case mostly feminine, perspectives.

[QUOTE]isn't originality just a mish-mash of old ideas?[/QUOTE]

ironically yes it seems, star wars can be seen as original or a mich mash of westerns, and so on. but then, it brought new ideas to the sci fi genre, at least on a mainstream level.
there's a narrative theory, can't remember who's, that says there are several basic story lines, and all stories revolve around these. but then its the new spin the author puts on these that determines the originality.


to eliminator: proof?

[QUOTE=Eliminator Jr.]i have come to a conclusion

i am the worst songwriter ever[/QUOTE]no wai

ya rly

I doubt it. The 'ol Body In A Bag piece was pretty darned awful.

[QUOTE=slack]I think it is a valid criticism as long as you can back it up. I think as you get more specific with your subject matter and you actually start telling [i]stories[/i], you know, like Dylan, Waits, and Springsteen, concern for originality and what is and is not cliche, all that goes out the window because it's real life, or seems that way. That's how it seems to me. I think when writer's opine about grandiose topics with equally grand language they subject themselves to the kind of criticism you mention. I don't know why it seems that way. Maybe because none of it seems authentic and it [i]sounds[/i] like another rant from a kid on his soapbox.[/quote]

I sort of disagree with this. A cliche is a genre-specific thing. A songwriter like Dylan has different cliches to avoid. Just because its about real life does not excuse a writer from cliches. The beauty of the songwriters you mentioned is that they have found their artistic voice and through that voice are able to make observations and give it a certain spin. In these cases, cliche is when they do what every other writer might do. For example, Springsteen's Reno. I don't think Springsteen thought he was exempt from cliche avoidance simply because he was writing about a real-life (probably) event.

She took off her stockings
I held 'em to my face
She had your ankles
I felt filled with grace

"Two hundred dollars straight in
Two-fifty up the ***" she smiled and said
She unbuckled my belt, pulled back her hair
And sat in front of me on the bed


[quote]
I wouldn't advise people to stress over originality so much. It'll happen sooner or later. Just keep your eyes open and actually think about shi[font="verdana"]t[/font] once in awhile.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Focus on finding your artistic voice is key. Only you possess your voice, so originality follows.

First time I've been on here in five days!! A new record for me I think!

I've been away walking and climbing, and am now home for 7 hours before I head off for another week on the hills. Sorry I haven't been critiquing anyone's work, but as soon as I'm back I'll be sure to catch up!

Hope you're all well.

Timmy

I'll tell you what i like. Bob Dylans spoken-word performance of 'Last Thoughts On Woody Guthrie'.. now that right there is impressive.

An excerpt: "And to yourself you sometimes say
"I never knew it was gonna be this way
Why didn't they tell me the day I was born"
And you start gettin' chills and yer jumping from sweat
And you're lookin' for somethin' you ain't quite found yet
And yer knee-deep in the dark water with yer hands in the air
And the whole world's a-watchin' with a window peek stare
And yer good gal leaves and she's long gone a-flying
And yer heart feels sick like fish when they're fryin'"

[quote=ATC]Just because its about real life does not excuse a writer from cliches.[/quote]True, but I don't think it matters past a certain point. I think writing [i]specifically[/i] about any event or any emotion allows you a certain freedom to [i]not care[/i] about cliches, because it will still seem genuine. Springsteen is probably not the first person to write about an encounter with a hooker in some motel, and in that sense you're right, it probably is cliche, but otherwise I really don't think [i]Reno[/i] should be viewed that way. It's beautiful writing.

So ... like originality, I don't think [i]cliche[/i] is such a big deal once your writing gets good enough. It's simply a non-issue then because you can write about any topic persuasively.

I love that song, by the way. :)