Quantum Enigma was very good. I'm looking forward to this.

that tracklist tho

^you don't even know

psyched for this, their last album was phenomenal.

04. Universal Death Squad

Will probably check anyway

They seem pretty convinced that this is even better than TQE.

Sounds like a Scar Symmetry album or something. Cool.

anyone else thinking that female fronted is a useless and discriminatory term?

anyone else thinking that female fronted is a useless and discriminatory term?

Not until it becomes anything other than a rarity in such a male-dominated genre.

TQE was awesome though, 'The Essence of Silence' is one of my favourite metal singles for many years. So will definitely be checking this.

When will we stop dividing people according to their sex? Besides, 'female-fronted' is so generic. It has stuck with a certain genre or bundle of genres (symponic, gothic) but women are now a part of many metal/rock genres, from progressive, to death, to heavy.

Don't get me wrong it's definitely generic...
I would love for it to become the norm and not to need to be pointed out but ladies in metal are still an overwhelming minority.

Agreed. And just to clear it out, I dind't misunderstand you, I guessed you opposed the term.

Thankyou for clarifying, my automatic internet defence shield was primed!
Back to the album though, I'm loving the idea of a futuristic concept album, maybe some electronics alongside the orchestral flourishes would be siiiiick.

there are very few bands that are able to pull that off, we'll see how this turns out.

They claim that this is more of the same thing, just better executed. Epica is not a band to shake the waters, for good or for bad. If there are new elements, they are going to be a few.

Yes !

this is gonna rule

"anyone else thinking that female fronted is a useless and discriminatory term?"

it's about the fact that this has female vocals, which usually rule. has nothing to do with sexism whatsoever. i mean, how many bands w/ female instrumentalists are called "female-banded band" like, the term is used because it conveys relevant information

"anyone else thinking that female fronted is a useless and discriminatory term?"

Useless yes, discriminatory no. Only reason why people use this label because females can deliver some different viewpoints/feelings in music in males can not and in some genres (in this case Metal), female singers are in the minority (or just something for males to drool over aesthetically, but this goes both ways in the music industry).

oh boy, it's going to be another one of 'these' threads isn't it

it's only about vocals tbh

@Toon: Na I really doubt it.

it's happening !!!

''the term is used because it conveys relevant information''

Oh yes, you're right. I guess then I like female-fronted metal bands and tall-guy-with-high-pitched-voice metal bands and of course my favourite, the-guitarist-influences-the-rest-of-the-band-in-terms-of-songwriting-but-the-singer-writes-the-lyrics metal bands.

I mean, yes, it gives info, but who the hell cares. Women have always been in rock and metal music and now are in the whole spectrum of the heavy sound. Not many bands, I agree, but then we should also talk about, dunno, south-african metal, just because SA hasn't that many metal bands, thus is under-represtented.

''females can deliver some different viewpoints/feelings in music in males can not and in some genres''

no, they don't. They just have different voice, but sometimes that's not even the case. If I hadn't known Angela was singing in Arch Enemy I would never guess.

''or just something for males to drool over aesthetically, but this goes both ways in the music industry''

And that's sexist, doesn't matter if it goes both ways, which it doesn't. One good thing about metal and rock is that -for the most part- sex appeal is irrelevant. Now we have to deal with things like Epica's The Divivne Conspiracy, where the cover was a gimmick from the company to sell more records, without the band knowing a thing.

it happened

hah, yes, I guess I couldn't control myself over that matter. Sorry.

based on the name alone, this band is symphonic metal, isn't it

>2016
>not knowing epica

smdh

Based on the name alone, I used to refer to them as Epic Metal, and then the Manowar nation attacked and I had to change the tag.

"no, they don't. They just have different voice, but sometimes that's not even the case. If I hadn't known Angela was singing in Arch Enemy I would never guess."

Yes, they can. Some lyrics do not fit at all if a man were singing them and vice versa (for example 'Santa Baby' by Eartha Kitt can not be sung by a man for the lyrics to make any sense). Plus saying "no, they don't" and "They just have different voice" is a contradiction since not only a female's viewpoint can affect a song but for the most part it's their voice, as you just said. For example Tokyo Jihen's Himitsu is given a completely different vibe when a voice like her's is singing it, that tone of voice which males tend to not have.


"And that's sexist, doesn't matter if it goes both ways, which it doesn't. One good thing about metal and rock is that -for the most part- sex appeal is irrelevant. Now we have to deal with things like Epica's The Divivne Conspiracy, where the cover was a gimmick from the company to sell more records, without the band knowing a thing."

It does, but not to the same extent since ultimately in mainstream music female nudity is shown more than men and mainstream rap now that is another can of worms. In the example you gave, that is not sexism. If a male was on a cover instead of a woman half naked to sell that record because the majority of fans were female would that be sexism? No, it's just satisfying the demand of a market which enjoyed nudity of that gender. Hell my favorite band panders to females through a lot of sexual lyrics and actions at live shows, yet it does not bother me because it's making the majority of the fans enjoy the band more. It does not promote the female as a object, something of less value than a man (which therefore would be sexism) but rather exploiting a hole in the market. Many humans find nudity appealing, and the concept of using this to promote media does not bother me but rather the nature of how it is included.

The lyrical context does not and is not affected by the singers gender. I think it's irrelevant. Singers can and do have feelings about same sex people. And the woman's viewpoint can be different, in a completely descriptive/empirical kind of way, but that doesn't mean that it naturally is different. And the voice's tone changes even between same sex singers. I agree it's different, of course it is, but that can't possibly justify a term such as female-fronted...

Exploiting image in order to sell is by itself disgracious to music. I repeat, it doesn't matter if a man or a woman is shown nude, if their sexuality is the subject of the picture then it is sexist. Also, sexism doesn't necessarily mean that a specific gender is of lesser value, just that is/should be treated differently. And I can't possibly care what many humans find appealing, if we're talking about entertainment, sells and just ''do what the crowd wants'', then I don't want to be a part of it. I just don't know the reason for such a tag to exist, as it doesn't really offer anything. Not all bands who have female singers play the same music, nor a specific genre uses only women as singers, so it should be abolished.

Asffp227, not wanting to sound mean, and I completely understand you detest wholeheartedly such threads, but you don't really contribute towards ending or solving the discussion issue.

sorry, didn't realize i wasn't contributing to the discussion

venomous humor

"The lyrical context does not and is not affected by the singers gender."

Did you even read the lyrics to the example which I gave? Your point for same sex attraction does not apply for some songs but it others it does. Naturally it is not different, however nuance and context of the song does determine it to be a factor in rare cases (for example the song I said).


"And the voice's tone changes even between same sex singers. I agree it's different, of course it is, but that can't possibly justify a term such as female-fronted..."

I never said it justified the term 'female-fronted' which in my eyes it doesn't justify it. Also yeah of course the tone of an artist's voice changes drastically between ones of the same sex however there's some trends that differ with sexes. For example minus Nina Hagen, I have never heard another female vocalist which has bass notes so low and such a rich lower range.


"Exploiting image in order to sell is by itself disgracious to music."

If people still listened to that artist regardless of whether they like the music or not you'd have a point, but they for the vast majority of cases don't. It's publicity, people need to get noticed somehow and fashion/nudity can be a method as much. Everyone needs funds to continue their art, if they do it just for shock value and have no substance musically I will be annoyed however I see why they're doing it.


"I repeat, it doesn't matter if a man or a woman is shown nude, if their sexuality is the subject of the picture then it is sexist"

Umm...why?


"Also, sexism doesn't necessarily mean that a specific gender is of lesser value, just that is/should be treated differently."

Can you give examples where sexes are treated differently, not by a negative cogitation without giving the example of gendered bathrooms because my mind has just collapsed apparently :/ I'm not saying I disagree or agree with you, just curious to know.

"And I can't possibly care what many humans find appealing, if we're talking about entertainment, sells and just ''do what the crowd wants'', then I don't want to be a part of it. I just don't know the reason for such a tag to exist, as it doesn't really offer anything. Not all bands who have female singers play the same music, nor a specific genre uses only women as singers, so it should be abolished."

I think we're arguing different points here. You're arguing that 'female-fronted' bands is a tag that should be abolished (which I kind of agree since I find it pointless), I'm arguing that gender of the singer can affect the art itself, NOT the justification of that tag.

except male vocalists SUCK

10/10 generalization there tbh.

''Can you give examples where sexes are treated differently''

I'll start with this one, being the easiest: treating women/girls like treasured entities, like fragile beings that need our affection and protection is sexist, but doesn't speak negatively about them. It is an example where women are thought to be something more precious than men, but actually it is just a new behaviour solely based on sex and nothing else. Thus, it's sexist.

''If people still listened to that artist regardless of whether they like the music or not you'd have a point''

The fans may not be sexists, the exploitation by itself is, though. Putting a nude girl on a cover means you are sexist, but the audience maybe not.

''Santa Baby'' - Yes, it says 'awful good girl', indeed.

''Female vocal range'' - There are high pitched men, there are low pitched women. Nina Simone and Diamanda Gallas are two different examples that work perfectly. But I truly see no specific disagreement between us on this matter.

Generally we agree on the tag matter, I also agree that sex can affect the art sometimes, but I think it's a norm that derives from culture, rather than nature.

being female is exploitation agreed

10/10 male prudish metalheads

nah, not really.

literally tho

nah, not really [2]

"but I think it's a norm that derives from culture"

Yes, it is. Like in Santa Baby it is about a demanding woman that is asking for obscene presents and gifts regardless of price, culture makes this only suitable for a woman to sing because of the cultural context of the time it was released. In terms of nature as I said it's due to general trends.


"I'll start with this one, being the easiest: treating women/girls like treasured entities, like fragile beings that need our affection and protection is sexist, but doesn't speak negatively about them. It is an example where women are thought to be something more precious than men, but actually it is just a new behaviour solely based on sex and nothing else. Thus, it's sexist."

"The fans may not be sexists, the exploitation by itself is, though. Putting a nude girl on a cover is sexist for you, not necessarily for the audience."

This is ultimately boiling down to the semantics of whether sexism is any different treatment of a gender being based on only on their gender or prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination of a specific gender (therefore having a negative cogitation) which in my eyes isn't worth discussing since both are definitions of the word. What is worth discussion is whether exploiting nudity for art is a bad thing in terms of music, which in my eyes is not a bad thing but even then it depends on the way which it is done.

''What is worth discussion is whether exploiting nudity for art is a bad thing in terms of music, which in my eyes is not a bad thing but even then it depends on the way which it is done.''

So our whole discussion, ultimately, comes down to this specific subject, where we partly agree.

stoked

that is the worst tracklist of all time

one look at their other albums would tell you otherwise...

Epica always choose a bit extravagant names for their songs. It can be a hit or miss, really. One day they will make a track called ''[Enter simple word here]'' and then will be the beginning of the end.