geng
11.09.10 | I for one welcome our new insect overlords. |
This Life is Genocide
11.09.10 | inb4 political rage |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | There's a great deal of problems within both political parties, but I personally don't think Repbulican policy or ideals can be considered a step right direction... |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | whatever, i just wish everyone would be more bi-partisan less bullshit. obama's interview last sunday on 60 minutes, i thought, addressed it really well. and he said a few things i found to be shockingly honest. |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | I didn't happen to see the interview, what did you find shocking? |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | I should run the United States. Economy suffering? Free burritos for all. Problem solved. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | inb4 a million comments of dumbasses thinkin they know politics. |
DiceMan
11.09.10 | I can't wait to pay for a few hundred people to sit around pass meaningless laws while doing absolutely nothing else because everything's on lockdown. What fun. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | FREE HAT |
JWT155
11.09.10 | Fred Durst for Prez. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | Chambers, you will be my Connie Rice. Just don't be black. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | The United States will never truly recover until the two-party system is done away with. People don't even think or read up on things, they just vote party lines. Nothing ever gets passed because people just shoot down the other party's ideas. I doubt this ship can be righted. |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | @ 36: you'd have to see it to understand, really. just the way he came across seemed really honest to me. much more so than most politicians. he also made a comment about how everyone (himself included) is full of shit when it comes to election promises that i thought was something |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | "SputnikMUSIC" |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | oh fuck off |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | im apathetic tbh. boehner is a member of the last branch of the republican party and not as right
leaning as this new school tea party crowd and knows that if he stonewalls the house and nothing gets
done his party will get the boot in the next cylcle. I dont think any sweeping legislation will happen
but between the posturing and rhetoric the two parties will find some consensus, because they really
arent that far apart on a lot of issues. still though, i doubt anything will change in the short term
or the long term from this session of the house so dont really care. i think it gives obama the
upperhand for 2012 because he now has an enemy to fight against, so to say, and that's where he
thrives and seems more personable. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | lol, boehner. |
FadeToBlack
11.09.10 | tl;dr
republicans can lick my shaft |
Emim
11.09.10 | ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
Doesn't work. also lol @ boehner |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | @Curse: I definitely agree. Although, I'd like to believe it can be righted. It's all up to the people to start thinking. I think the more we separate the church from our government, the better off we are in generally all aspects.
@Hep Kat: Yeah, perhaps I'll watch some of it on Youtube if I get around to it. I've always found Barack to be a genuine and heartelt person, but I suppose you need that to win presidency to a certain extent. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | redsky just ended the thread, boom. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | I watched the Obama thing, and the Bush interview. Dude was getting a little pissy at the thought of foreign countries water-boarding (sp?) Americans, yet our government did it to 3 members of Al Queda. Weird. Americans can't be terrorists? |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | @redskyformiles: You bring up good points. I also doubt much change will happen for a long time. But economy aside, Republican views on abortion, war, oil, and things such as this often set us back (in my opinion). |
theacademy
11.09.10 | i don't think there's any way in which this helps obama's 2012 campaign. |
KevinGarnett
11.09.10 | Barack Obama is black. |
TMobotron
11.09.10 | "lol, boehner."
lmfao, too good. |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | @36 i'm not a fan of republican wedge ideals either, and i am a bit miffed about a great left leaning voice (feingold) getting beat, but with dems still in control in the senate and the executive i think the house is just going to be what it always has been, a sounding board for a ton of ideas, only a few of which hold any water. |
Static
11.09.10 | The United States will never truly recover until the two-party system is done away with. People don't even think or read up on things, they just vote party lines. Nothing ever gets passed because people just shoot down the other party's ideas. I doubt this ship can be righted. [2] |
Satellite
11.09.10 | remember when this used to be a music site? |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | also if anyone wants to see that interview from 60 minutes: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7032674n |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | True |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | ^
that. everything ventured, nothing gained. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | "remember when this used to be a music site?"
My country t'is of thee... |
FadeToBlack
11.09.10 | what |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | You all should check out that Hallucinogen album though ;) |
BigHans
11.09.10 | Fade, why would you give a shit about the Republicans? |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | cool now it's just a different group of politicians who enslave the american public to CBS, NBC, FOX and oh so many more corporations.
same story, different name
also inb4 shitstorm |
Thane
11.09.10 | Ron. Paul. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | The thing about separating church and state is that it is impossible for people who are religious to actually do. You are going to vote politically for what you believe religiously, simple as that. |
JesusChris
11.09.10 | Nita Blowey
/list |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "cool now it's just a different group of politicians who enslave the american public to CBS, NBC, FOX and oh so many more corporations.
same story, different name"
ok alice. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | yeah the American public does a good enough job enslaving to corporations on their own |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "The thing about separating church and state is that it is impossible for people who are religious to actually do. You are going to vote politically for what you believe religiously, simple as that."
wtf does this retardedness even mean |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | republicans and dems are on the same team and completely play the public like fools |
BigTuna
11.09.10 | political-sounding statement full of hyperbole
|
theacademy
11.09.10 | "republicans and dems are on the same team and completely play the public like fools"
it seems that way but actually people are just apathetic. |
eternium
11.09.10 | My opinion is that Republicans suck and Unbroken is awesome. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | man i love you guys |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | I get what he's saying academy -- as long as gay marriage is something we vote on then it will governed at least partially by religion
since a large segment of the voting population is heavily religious and bases their opinions of the subject in their religion |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | separation of church and state means that the state shouldnt control religion and religion shouldnt control the state
people can vote based on their ideals without their church being in charge of the government, idiots |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Pretty sure the church isn't in control of our government, idiots. The church will always be brought
into our government by those that go to said church. Those ideals are there but whenever someone says
those ideals fuckwits scream for separation of church and state. |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | "I get what he's saying academy -- as long as gay marriage is something we vote on then it will governed at least partially by religion
since a large segment of the voting population is heavily religious and bases their opinions of the subject in their religion"
this is true, but thats not the church controlling the government, that's the people who vote believing in the teaching of the church |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | I didn't say he defined "separation of church and state" I was just backing up his point that the way we're governed will always be steeped in religion |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | right, it doesn't "control the government" but it does "control the way we are governed" |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | our government dont answer to any religious figure |
BigTuna
11.09.10 | "since a large segment of the voting population is heavily religious and bases their opinions of the subject in their religion"
Let's not generalize Blakey. There are plenty of religious folk in favor of gay marriage. |
theacademy
11.09.10 |
1. we don't 'separate church and state' from a voters perspective. it is always been the right of the voting public to incorporate their own beliefs (whatever they are) in their voting decisions. |
acorncheese
11.09.10 | hate da repubs tbh |
patroneyes
11.09.10 | boehner crying solidified my assumption that this man is actually an infant |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | gay marriage was just an example, I didn't mean to generalize what religious people think about it. It was just an easy way to pick out a political issue that a lot of people view from a religious perspective |
theacademy
11.09.10 |
2. the right to gay marriage will eventually (and most likely, soon) leave the realm of voters and enter the realm of constitutional law. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Inveigh understood what i meant, thank you |
BigTuna
11.09.10 | @Inveigh: fair
@theacademy: yep |
eternium
11.09.10 | Separation of church and state = no government endorsement of any religion at all. Yes people can vote based on their religious beliefs, but if that vote impedes on the rights of others and/or endorses particular religious beliefs then it is unconstitutional. Example being same-sex marriage in California. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | sorry to separate it out like that. (1) was clarifying why weepingbanana's statement was retarded. (2) was a response to your point. |
BigHans
11.09.10 | RIP Ronald Wilson Reagan. And thats all I have to say about that. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | "2. the right to gay marriage will eventually (and most likely, soon) leave the realm of voters and enter the realm of constitutional law."
probably should've happened awhile ago tbh |
acorncheese
11.09.10 | The fact that religion is associated with politics in any form is terrifying. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Reagan was a corporate tool and is the main reason for our economic troubles. js.
Also, all issues should start at constitutional law, not the opinions of Americans. If it's unconstitutional, then it doesn't matter what your opinion is unless you plan on changing the Constitution. |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | how is what i said retarded? there really is no more United States Of America anymore. we're a nation of people who blindly accept what the tv tells us and instills in us (mostly fear). nothing is more beneficial to a totalitarian government than a nation of fear |
FadeToBlack
11.09.10 | political discussions need less use of the word constitutional
srsly stfu |
theacademy
11.09.10 | arite above 4 comments set a new record
im outy |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | Reagan is my least favorite president. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | he actually was responding to why I was retarded |
eternium
11.09.10 | "we're a nation of people who blindly accept what the tv tells us and instills in us (mostly fear)"
That's what gets the most ratings. It's a problem, yes, but we still (mostly) have freedom of the press. The government does not control the news, the news organizations themselves do. |
patroneyes
11.09.10 | list turning into heated debate
ooh wee am i excited |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | I feel like you're making sweeping generalizations that aren't even loosely based in logic and/or sound reasoning WeepingBanana
you sound like a freshman in college who just smoked weed for the first time
um, no offense |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | the people who control news stations are whoever funds it |
RosaParks
11.09.10 | all conservatives are absolutely retarded. js.
I'm late with this list. |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | Amen to that |
eternium
11.09.10 | True. News stations aren't very likely to criticize the companies who pay for advertising. Ah, capitalism. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Only rich white guys run every major news outlet. That tends to skew things a bit |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | yeah and they're all in bed with the politicians. every mainstream new organization is completely filtered.
and let's just pretend that the government and the news stations were completely separate. the idea of a major news source is inherently detrimental to society; the more fear it instills the better ratings so dumbing people down has become profitable and that's really all they care about.
the people on top don't give a fuck about you or your well being. period end of discussion |
trotsky
11.09.10 | my opinion is shut the fuck up |
acorncheese
11.09.10 | "how is what i said retarded? there really is no more United States Of America anymore. we're a nation of people who blindly accept what the tv tells us and instills in us (mostly fear). nothing is more beneficial to a totalitarian government than a nation of fear"
/thread.
Also, I love how Glenn Beck has spawned a whole fucking army of fearful retards who scowl at anything that goes against the constitution or anything that goes against what the "founding fathers" believed. SHIT BACK THEN WAS RADICALLY DIFFERENT THAN SHIT TODAY. IF THE CONSTITUTION NEEDS TO BE CHANGED, THEN FUCKING DO IT. DON'T BITCH ABOUT HOW "IT'S WHAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS WANTED."
CONDITIONS. TODAY. ARE. DRASTICALLY. DIFFERENT. THAN. THEY. WERE. BACK. THEN.
Done witthiz shit. |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | Fox News is the worst though, I reckon we can all agree? |
FadeToBlack
11.09.10 | stop saying that fucking word |
FreePizzaDay
11.09.10 | No opinion, I know it's irresponsible of me but politics bore me. I think I would be much more apt to pay attention if it wasn't just mud slinging all the time. |
FadeToBlack
11.09.10 | i will kill you |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | I don't think it's irresponsible. In the end, it's all bullshit. But If I have a pick over Repub vs Demo, I choose the elephants |
eternium
11.09.10 | "yeah and they're all in bed with the politicians. every mainstream new organization is completely filtered."
Other way around. You've got all of this wrong. The news organizations are in bed with the bosses who run them, who are in bed with whatever companies pay for advertising that gives them money, and the politicians are in bed with the companies and lobbyists who give them money and political power for campaigning in the next electoral cycle. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | Fox News and MSNBC are the same thing, on opposite sides of the spectrum. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | at least we evolved from throwing poo |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | [quote]Fox News is the worst though, I reckon we can all agree?[/quote]
fox really is just as bad as msnbc. they're so alienated from the american people and they just get caught in childish bickering amongst each other. it seems like msnbc's only platform is to make fun of fox. while very fun and easy, doesn't not make for good news |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Fox News and MSNBC honestly aren't that far away from each other on the spectrum |
eternium
11.09.10 | "Fox News and MSNBC are the same thing, on opposite sides of the spectrum."
Also wrong. Fox News and most of its reporters openly give money to and campaign for Republicans. MSNBC fired their main man for donating to three Democrats (and then hired him back after getting criticized). |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | I meant in terms of left-wing vs. right-wing |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | "Other way around. You've got all of this wrong. The news organizations are in bed with the bosses who run them, who are in bed with whatever companies pay for advertising that gives them money, and the politicians are in bed with the companies and lobbyists who give them money and political power for campaigning in the next electoral cycle."
well i was mostly paraphrasing |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | "boehner crying solidified my assumption that this man is actually an infant"
lol, boehner. Again. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
ANARCHY!
Doesn't work."
as a devote follower of rothbard, i'm inclined to disagree : )
also the federal reserve is the source of quite a lot of our economic problems. also government cartelization of businesses and allowing banks to over-leverage themselves, but a lot of that goes back to the federal reserve.
tbh the only politician I think has the right idea is Ron Paul. he's the only actual "libertarian" of the republicans. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | Ron Paul is a mac daddy. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Yeah, MSNBC is definitely leaning to the liberal side of things, but they kind of admit it while still not allowing reporters to help politicians and certainly shows both sides more often. Fox News is basically a huge propaganda machine for Republicans that actively campaigns for the party nearly 24/7, while still using the "Fair and Balanced" motto. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Ron Paul is a fucking idiot who would do nothing but widen the gap between the upper and lower class. He would also further inequality to untold levels. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Ron Paul is retarded when it comes to economics. Other than that, he's mostly alright. |
Jakeitwasaghost
11.09.10 | "Ron Paul is a fucking idiot who would do nothing but widen the gap between the upper and lower class. He would also further inequality to untold levels." = mac daddy. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | I think saying that MSNBC is "leaning to the liberal side of things" is either a gross understatement or makes your liberal bias painfully obvious.
I'm generally more liberal too, and Fox News is probably the less ethical of the two, but both are extremely biased. CNN is the outlet that "leans" liberal -- although they lean pretty heavily. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Ron Paul economics are completely fucked. His son refused to answer the question of whether or not he would have signed off on the civil rights law, which means "no, I wouldn't" |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | "Reagan is my least favorite president."
take sum history lessons
there much much much worse
like taft, wilson, or gwb |
o971
11.09.10 | If politicians listened to 5 the world would be a better place. js. |
eternium
11.09.10 | I do have a liberal bias in that I believe that facts have a liberal bias. I watch both and I see MSNBC use creditable sources far more often when discussing news and separates news from opinion far more clear than Fox News does. Fox News, on the other hand, is constantly caught giving false information that helps its cause. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Andrew Jackson is my favorite president. He raised the badass president level to heights that can never be duplicated |
theacademy
11.09.10 | when all you stupid fucking poli-sci majors grow up and move out and there's nobody paying for you to have tv, you realize that our generation's connection with 'major news outlets' is growing more and more tenuous.
yeah there will always be dumb audiences for bad entertainment, which will keep these 'major outlets' in the green (since, as people have said above, everything is connected), but as people continue to get their news from other sources--sources that can't be bought, since they're not static--the major corporate news platform will stop trying... it just won't be worth it anymore
politicians won't be able to pay for votes if you decentralize where you get your news. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | curseworship, I don't see what the civil rights bill has to do with economics |
BigHans
11.09.10 | I vote for facism |
curseworship
11.09.10 | "when all you stupid fucking poli-sci majors grow up and move out and there's nobody paying for you to have tv"
Shut the fuck up, not all of us are 14 here |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | hahahahahaha
"If politicians listened to 5 the world would be a better place. js."
truth |
eternium
11.09.10 | @theacademy Thank the internet for that. However, it's still true that the vast majority of people are rather apathetic and uninformed. |
Masochist
11.09.10 | "SHIT BACK THEN WAS RADICALLY DIFFERENT THAN SHIT TODAY. IF THE CONSTITUTION NEEDS TO BE CHANGED, THEN FUCKING DO IT. DON'T BITCH ABOUT HOW "IT'S WHAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS WANTED."
The Constitution has been changed something like 17 times since 1787, just sayin' (last time was in '92).
"News stations aren't very likely to criticize the companies who pay for advertising. Ah, capitalism."
You wouldn't think so, but then there was that Fox News smear campaign against one of their own primary financial backers. It just highlights how far the news media is willing to go to push a particular opinion onto the public.
|
curseworship
11.09.10 | It does, in the efforts of inequality amongst economics |
WeepingBanana
11.09.10 | everyone read The Braindead Megaphone by George Saunders
http://books.google.com/books?id=91BX-Bt2OFcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=braindead+megaphone&source=bl&ots=r-IYUXpY0v&sig=up0UPttNYDTaRa3BE4xRBd5kLFE&hl=en&ei=RcvZTLnhB8OB8gaE-uXfCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
basically sums it up |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | that is the first time i ever saw Wilson listed under worst president. i dont get that at all. i would have gone along the lines of Buchannan, Harding, Hoover and Johnson. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | "It does, in the efforts of inequality amongst economics"
^I have no idea what you mean by that. |
eternium
11.09.10 | "It does, in the efforts of inequality amongst economics"
Income inequality is what he was thinking of, not racial. Income inequality is currently at the same rates as it was in the '20s. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | right, so what does the Civil Rights Act have to do with that? |
eternium
11.09.10 | Civil Rights Act issue for Paul was if businesses had the right to refuse to hire based on race and other things like that. |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | review forum talking about politics = hilarious |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | ok, and I can see how that can effect the economy (even though it hasn't, based on what you said about income inequality being unchanged since the 20s) but I don't think that's what people are talking about when they say they like his libertarian-leaning economic ideas. |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | ron paul is not a libertarian in the slightest. |
Ire
11.09.10 | lets talk about dicks guys |
Enotron
11.09.10 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLGvybCr6AM
just saying, he's completely right. he also acknowledges the fact that fractional reserve banking is legalized fraud and how much harm it's done.
I suggest that some people read Murray Rothbard's papers on the cause of the great depression and how the combination of reserve-created inflation and Hoover's attempts to deal with the recession caused the great depression. I generally agree with Jefferson that the system of banking we have has led to the gap of wealth that we have and how it's generally fucked the people over. |
BigHans
11.09.10 | 3 years ago I would have come in here with guns blazing but honestly I really dont give a shit about politics anymore aside from hating Obama. |
eternium
11.09.10 | It doesn't have to do with income inequality, though it obviously has helped stop racial discrimination, which had obvious impacts on the economic lives of those people. Income inequality actually has changed a lot, but it has skyrocketed since the '80s (Reagan) back to those rates. Go look at a chart. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Ron Paul essentially wants pure capitalism, which is a horrifying thought |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "ron paul is not a libertarian in the slightest."
he is compared to most politicians. i mean the general concept of government is the opposite of libertarianism. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | @hans aren't you from one of those states where your vote matters? u gotta vote obama, man... |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | "tbh the only politician I think has the right idea is Ron Paul. he's the only actual "libertarian" of the republicans."
^I was responding to that.
but I'm pretty sure Ron Paul ran for President as the Libertarian nomination in '88 redsky |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Ron Paul essentially wants pure capitalism, which is a horrifying thought"
eh. people who don't understand who a genuine free market works reminds of me of how creationists don't understand evolution, no offense. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | Fuck yeah to not giving a shit about politics |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | "3 years ago I would have come in here with guns blazing but honestly I really dont give a shit about politics anymore aside from hating Obama."
Why? |
FreePizzaDay
11.09.10 | I'm going to be a member of "The Rent is Too Damn High" party. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | I personally don't give a shit about all of this in reality(sadly), but I do enjoy learning and debating about anarcho-capitalistic ideas. However the balance of corporatism and deregulation is what horrifies me. |
eternium
11.09.10 | I don't see how the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression at all. It was all caused by the huge speculations (especially in the credit market) by people and companies and the fact that there was so little regulation thanks to presidents who believed in Laissez Faire policies (Harding and Coolidge). Hoover just made it worse because he refused to do anything about it due to his beliefs that everything should be voluntarily done. |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | the man still takes pork money from the federal government for his district, has voted against curtailing earmarks, etc etc. that's not the libertarian ideal that the party lists of wanting basically a night watchman state. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | "eh. people who don't understand who a genuine free market works reminds of me of how creationists don't understand evolution, no offense."
No safety net? I'll pass.
There is a reason that no developed country has free-market in its purest form. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | maybe not, but he fit it enough to get their nomination for president at one point
the idea was that he was the "most libertarian" of any mainstream politician |
eternium
11.09.10 | "There is a reason that no developed country has free-market in its purest form."
This. Capitalism has to be regulated or else you get monopolies and basically everything described in "The Jungle." Income inequality is a huge deal. |
witchxrapist
11.09.10 | my country is called ethiopa |
Enotron
11.09.10 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDp65Juibes&p=9C242F1FCD517F2D&playnext=1&index=42
http://mises.org/rothbard/agd/chapter4.asp
http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf
I'm sorry I can't type it all out, but those links will explain my views.
the point is is that inflation causes illusions in the market, which incentivizes businesses to over-speculate.
"else you get monopolies"
haha what?! Regulation CREATES monopolies. How do you think barriers to entry came to be? government cartelized corporations lobby to create all these difficult regulations and requirements that kill competition and give the business a monopoly. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Is it okay if I completely disregard Ron Paul's criticism of the Fed simply based on the fact that most of his other views would led to more money going to the rich anyway? The bank may further cause the gap in wealth due to its policies in helping major banks, but it isn't a major contributer. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Do you just not care about the poor? Or do you buy into the American Dream ideal so much that the fact that they are poor must just be their own fault? |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Do you just not care about the poor? Or do you buy into the American Dream ideal so much that the fact that they are poor must just be their own fault?"
I do care about the poor, hence the reason I'm against legalized theft and state-created monopolies. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | arguing itt |
eternium
11.09.10 | "Regulation CREATES monopolies."
The late 1800's was fueled mostly be politicians who strongly believed in Laissez Faire policies. As a result of the very little regulation, many monopolies formed because the government allowed trusts. Then you have the Sherman Antitrust Act, a form of regulation, created to make trusts and monopolies illegal. Regulations are put in place to help consumers and to promote competition and more of these sort of regulations need to be put in place. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Or do you buy into the American Dream ideal so much that the fact that they are poor must just be their own fault?"
No. I believe they got fucked over by the system we have, thus I encourage not a reformation of the system but an abolishment of it. |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | Anarchy would be cool but I don't think it would work too well. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | How does competition help the poor? All it does it send jobs overseas to countries where the labor can be done as cheaply as possible? |
ConsiderPhlebas
11.09.10 | There hasn't been a politician in any government who wouldn't stamp on a burning baby to cool down its candy |
eternium
11.09.10 | Oh, that reminds me. Obama and most of the Democrats want to end tax cuts for companies who ship jobs overseas, but were stopped by Republicans. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | regulation has created plenty of monopolies as well, eternium. you can't afford to be so blind. |
Inveigh
11.09.10 | well said Phleb |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Nice work Republicans, way to continue proving why you are out of touch with the problems in the world. Fucking rich, old, white men. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "How does competition help the poor? All it does it send jobs overseas to countries where the labor can be done as cheaply as possible?"
this is so unimaginably stupid. seriously, if you're not 14 how old are you. |
eternium
11.09.10 | I wouldn't call those regulations and I don't support those. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "How does competition help the poor? All it does it send jobs overseas to countries where the labor can be done as cheaply as possible?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVAOpFstIIs |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "I wouldn't call those regulations and I don't support those."
cop-out. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | Free-trade only works if multiple countries agree on how to do things, which doesn't happen. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Government regulations can't cause monopolies if monopolies are illegal. js.
I still will always believe that a purely free market would led to the economy being controlled by a handful of people, just as has been in the past and is incredibly close to being today. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | but I generally believe that the more power consumers have, the less ability a business has to form a monopoly. it's either you believe the government should make market decisions or consumers should, and usually we settle o the two mixed(hence mixed economy). |
curseworship
11.09.10 | The things that are imported include exponentially more jobs than the things we export, especially
with such a low standard of living. Then again, with complete free-trade, there will be no minimum
wage, and no unions to defend people's rights, totally forgot about that. |
eternium
11.09.10 | "but I generally believe that the more power consumers have"
Yes. More power to the consumers. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Government regulations can't cause monopolies if monopolies are illegal. js."
what makes you think regulators are incorruptible little angels? the term monopoly goes back to around the 17th century where kings would accept bribes from businesses in return for giving them certain rights and powers in their field of business. this remains true to this day. now its called corporate lobbying. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Yes, I am aware of that, and the very reason that our regulations are so weak is not because of the laws, but rather the people put in place to regulate. Bush and Reagan both put in regulators who didn't believe in regulating. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "The things that are imported include exponentially more jobs than the things we export, especially with such a low standard of living. Then again, with complete free-trade, there will be no minimum wage, and no unions to defend people's rights, totally forgot about that."
During the great depression, Hoover's wage controls increased unemployment. Also you're forgetting that in a free market, workers have more power due to competition. if one employer restricts them of rights and offers crap conditions, the smarter employer will hire them and offer better conditions. |
eternium
11.09.10 | "if one employer restricts them of rights and offers crap conditions, the smarter employer will hire them and offer better conditions."
This is all theory that hasn't worked in real life. There's a reason that unions were started. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | NO WORKERS HAVE MORE CONTROL IN A FREE-TRADE ENVIRONMENT. It is an illogical argument. Also, only giant businesses can do such things, and with many, many underdeveloped countries, there are ample places to put a plant and exploit laborers. All free-trade truly does is give even more power to large businesses. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | you guys keep running in circles so basically here's where you should re-center your debate:
for clarity, these are one user's (my) opinions, which you should dispute if you disagree
1. a pure free-market is a bad idea, but emulation of free-market ideals is the best idea.
2. regulation both dissolves and creates monopolies, and has done so historically.
|
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Yes, I am aware of that, and the very reason that our regulations are so weak"
they're not.
i'll give you an example of one sort of regulation i have a problem with; the FDA. The FDA makes it so that people can't legally acquire products until they're approved by the FDA, which takes forever. Let's say I'm about to die in a month and there's a pill that might be able to cure me, but it hasn't been FDA approved yet. why should I not allowed to take that risk? in a free market, insurance companies would replace monopoly regulators. your insurance company will provide a more thorough investigation of crap services or unhealthy products and they have more incentive to do a better job because if you get harmed they have to reimburse you. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Agree with academy. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "This is all theory that hasn't worked in real life. There's a reason that unions were started."
that theory hasn't worked because we've never had a fucking free market in the US. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | lets stop the fighting, stop long paragraphs and youtube links. you guys probably agree way more than you're letting on. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Enotron, what if there's a pill that becomes extremely popular, but is later causing deaths all over the country a few months later? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone to test out the drug and make sure that it's safe? |
Enotron
11.09.10 | and you know why? a free market is an anarchy. a free market is based on the idea of self-ownership. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Enotron, what if there's a pill that becomes extremely popular, but is later causing deaths all over the country a few months later? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone to test out the drug and make sure that it's safe?"
did you skip over what I said about insurance companies? |
theacademy
11.09.10 | -andrew ryan |
eternium
11.09.10 | "that theory hasn't worked because we've never had a fucking free market in the US."
Somalia has a completely free market. Look at how good it's doing. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | arguing itt |
Enotron
11.09.10 | eternium statistics have shown that in the period of time in which somalia had a free market that they did a lot better.
http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf |
eternium
11.09.10 | "did you skip over what I said about insurance companies?"
It's kind of too late when the pill has already killed dozens of people and the company has made more profit from the pill's sales (especially if it has a monopoly on it) than it could lose on lawsuits. |
eternium
11.09.10 | I'm pretty sure that Somalia is one of the poorest, most corrupt, widespread crime invested, and overall shittiest countries in the world. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "It's kind of too late when the pill has already killed dozens of people and the company has made more profit from the pill's sales (especially if it has a monopoly on it) than it could lose on lawsuits."
once again, you ignored my original point. insurance companies would investigate a product before the consumer took it and they have way more incentive to do a more thorough study of the product than any other regulator. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "I'm pretty sure that Somalia is one of the poorest, most corrupt, widespread crime invested, and overall shittiest countries in the world."
yes. what's your point? |
climactic
11.09.10 | oh you kids and your poly ticks |
curseworship
11.09.10 | apparently we can have a utopia of free-trade guys! All we have to do is deal with complete chaos and lawlessness for like 30 years |
eternium
11.09.10 | "yes. what's your point?"
Uh, that the lack of a government and regulations has turned Somalia into shit.
"insurance companies would investigate a product before the consumer took it"
You're assuming this. It has never happened and there's still problems with dangerous drugs even after the FDA approved them. Again, the FDA (and other regulations) has been created because of the failure of the free market to fix these problems. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "apparently we can have a utopia of free-trade guys! All we have to do is deal with complete chaos and lawlessness for like 30 years"
your ignorance is astounding. defense forces still exist in anarchies, only difference is that we can choose who we want to defend our property. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | "your ignorance is astounding. defense forces still exist in anarchies, only difference is that we can choose who we want to defend our property."
for those that can afford it |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Uh, that the lack of a government and regulations has turned Somalia into shit."
uh they were shit before they had a lack of government and if you read the article, you'll see that they were better off without a state.
"You're assuming this. It has never happened and there's still problems with dangerous drugs even after the FDA approved them. Again, the FDA (and other regulations) has been created because of the failure of the free market to fix these problems."
it hasn't happened because of the FDA's monopoly over drug regulation. why can't I choose who I want to regulate my life? why can't I choose not to have a regulator at all? you said at some point itt that you wanted consumers to have more power.
|
eternium
11.09.10 | Dude, Somalia has anarchy. Somalia sucks ass. What more do I need to say? |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "for those that can afford it"
once again competition = the best service at the cheapest price, as opposed to a monopoly which has the incentive to provide the sloppiest service at the highest price |
eternium
11.09.10 | "why can't I choose who I want to regulate my life? why can't I choose not to have a regulator at all?"
You can always move to Somalia. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "Dude, Somalia has anarchy. Somalia sucks ass. What more do I need to say?"
uh dude, somalia has had a government all the way up to the mid 90s. uh dude, they drastically improved while they were stateless. what more do i need to saY? |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "why can't I choose who I want to regulate my life? why can't I choose not to have a regulator at all?"
because your parents would have died from the 10-15 kinds of cancer they would have had before you were born |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "You can always move to Somalia."
No. I own my body, my labor, and the product of it. I am the ruler of my own property and I should be allowed to choose who I want to regulate it. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | in Somalia
Heinously bad>Horrifically bad. whoo free-trade |
eternium
11.09.10 | Not all government is good. That doesn't change the fact that Somalia sucks ass now. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | "No. I own my body, my labor, and the product of it. I am the ruler of my own property and I should be allowed to choose who I want to regulate it."
and fuck everyone else right? |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "and fuck everyone else right?"
thats unfair and not what he's saying |
Enotron
11.09.10 | no don't fuck everyone else, let everyone else have the same rights dipshit.
"in Somalia
Heinously bad>Horrifically bad. whoo free-trade"
you continue to ignore my point that statistics prove that somalia improved in the time period in which there was an anarchy. Somalia has always sucked. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | honestly, we should probably move on. argument is kind of circling at this point and our views stand clear. |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | Sputnik kids arguing politics on the internet. Sweet role-models! |
eternium
11.09.10 | "thats unfair and not what he's saying"
Actually, that's basically what it comes down to. You can't have multiple regulators and you can't choose who regulates your stuff. It's either the government does it or you have to depend on the businesses to regulate themselves, which they often do not. Profit is all the businesses care about while the regulators are put there to protect consumers. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "you continue to ignore my point that statistics prove that somalia improved in the time period in which there was an anarchy. Somalia has always sucked."
your statistics are BS tho. sample size is too small + somalia's long-term economic recordkeeping is... less than desirable. you can't have any real point without comparables. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | lol @ mindtrain's wit and originality |
Emim
11.09.10 | Argue on internet
refresh
ARGUE AGAIN |
Enotron
11.09.10 | well i mean the purpose of a free market is that consumers regulate businesses. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "Actually, that's basically what it comes down to. You can't have multiple regulators and you can't choose who regulates your stuff. It's either the government does it or you have to depend on the businesses to regulate themselves, which they often do not. Profit is all the businesses care about while the regulators are put there to protect consumers."
this is not equivalent to "and fuck everyone else right?"
center yourselves again |
Enotron
11.09.10 | also what i'm basically getting at is that somalia has always been shit regardless of statelessness or not and you can't just equate their problems with the free market. |
Winsomniac
11.09.10 | Dude, I just naturarized this summer. I barery speak engrish. Seriousry. Poritics is too difficurt. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Sweden, a nation famous for its democratic-socialist government system and mixed economy. Often ranked at the very top when it comes to life quality, health, economy, education, and lack of corruption.
Somalia, a nation famous for being shitty for its entire history, currently plagued by religious violence that has killed thousands in recent years and being controlled by armed gangs who also like to pirate, but also has a completely free market and lack of a government in most parts.
Pick one. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | the somalia tangent was a stupid point that should have been ignored. |
eternium
11.09.10 | @academy, that's what I was saying. In a free market, it's all about survival of whoever has the most money. Everyone else is fucked. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "Sweden, a nation famous for its democratic-socialist government system and mixed economy. Often ranked at the very top when it comes to life quality, health, economy, education, and lack of corruption.
Somalia, a nation famous for being shitty for its entire history, currently plagued by religious violence that has killed thousands in recent years and being controlled by armed gangs who also like to pirate, but also has a completely free market and lack of a government in most parts.
Pick one."
no. this is stupid. |
Winsomniac
11.09.10 | putin droppin' them knowledge nukes. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Why? It's showing how nations without governments and regulations tend to be the shittiest ones while the ones with strong governments and economic regulations tend to be very well off. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "somalia has always been shit regardless of statelessness or not and you can't just equate their problems with the free market."
once again you ignore my comments
you also conveniently left out that sweden has a really big deficit ; ) |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "In a free market, it's all about survival of whoever has the most money. Everyone else is fucked."
surely in the controlled market we have, it's still about who has the most money?
"Why? It's showing how nations without governments and regulations tend to be the shittiest ones while the ones with strong governments and economic regulations tend to be very well off."
lulz |
eternium
11.09.10 | Sweden has had budget surpluses in recent years, actually. |
Emim
11.09.10 | Hug it out, guys, hug it out hard |
theacademy
11.09.10 | Why? It's showing how nations without governments and regulations tend to be the shittiest ones while the ones with strong governments and economic regulations tend to be very well off.
http://oi53.tinypic.com/io1a15.jpg
left: top 20 HDI
right: top 20 IEF
(most recent data) |
theacademy
11.09.10 | look at that chart, and then think about what you're saying about the reason behind somalia's less
stable history than sweden's.
|
Enotron
11.09.10 | gonna say 1 is an awesome album, btw |
theacademy
11.09.10 | 1 rules. |
eternium
11.09.10 | I'm not saying that it's the main reason or anything. It's still complete anarchy, which in turn causes these power gaps that led to only a few people having the power. There is absolutely no way to create equality, but it takes regulations to protect against enormous gaps in power and income. These regulations help ensure economic freedom, which relates to the table and why it is that those countries have those freedoms. A truly free market would give those freedoms to the biggest companies and richest people. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | "I'm not saying that it's the main reason or anything. It's still complete anarchy, which in turn causes these power gaps that led to only a few people having the power. There is absolutely no way to create equality, but it takes regulations to protect against enormous gaps in power and income. These regulations help ensure economic freedom, which relates to the table and why it is that those countries have those freedoms. A truly free market would give those freedoms to the biggest companies and richest people."
all i can say is that I disagree and I've stated why. just hope you understand that the government is itself a monopoly. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | yeah that's all well and good, but you also played a part in this stupidity that you should answer for:
"Sweden, a nation famous for its democratic-socialist government system and mixed economy. Often ranked at the very top when it comes to life quality, health, economy, education, and lack of corruption.
Somalia, a nation famous for being shitty for its entire history, currently plagued by religious violence that has killed thousands in recent years and being controlled by armed gangs who also like to pirate, but also has a completely free market and lack of a government in most parts.
Pick one."
[me:]no. this is stupid.
"Why? It's showing how nations without governments and regulations tend to be the shittiest ones while the ones with strong governments and economic regulations tend to be very well off." |
eternium
11.09.10 | My point is that those countries ranked at the top for economic freedom do not have free markets either. In fact, Canada and Japan are two of the most often accused of socialism, particularly Japan with its monopoly on medicine. The shitty countries that the only ones to have truly free markets and anarchy. |
Emim
11.09.10 | genocidal paradigm of infinite growth
legitimized in the eyes of the beholder
by economic shamans shouting from the shadows
that what is, is as god intended
Same thoughts
same fight
Same words
different faces and different clothes
Selling us off for diminishing returns
preaching to us that we get what we deserve |
theacademy
11.09.10 | "My point is that those countries ranked at the top for economic freedom do not have free markets either. "
yeah nobody disputes this (altho Hong Kong is a pretty damn close example). It's just not the point you actually made. |
curseworship
11.09.10 | shhhhh.........let it die |
eternium
11.09.10 | What do you think is my point then? |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | So guys-who-have-spent-1-or-more-hours-arguing-about-simple-politics, have you learned a lot and made plenty of friends tonight? |
Winsomniac
11.09.10 | too much scrolling; didn't read. |
theacademy
11.09.10 | you:
Sw, a buddhist, is very poor and also very fat.
So, a hindu, is very rich and also very attractive.
being attractive is better than being fat, so being hindu is better than being buddhist.
---------------------------------------
me: that's stupid. you're stupid
---------------------------------------
you: Why? It's showing how people who are buddhists tend to be the fattest ones, while hindus tend to be very attractive."
|
eternium
11.09.10 | ...that doesn't explain anything. |
BigTuna
11.09.10 | many crazy people on this list |
SeaAnemone
11.09.10 | lol I'm a poli sci major.
I know enough to know I should stay out of these convos. |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | this whole thing went to hell, didn't it? some of this is lulzy as fuck |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | is the arguing itt over? |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | i would hope so because by the end of it, finding good info in it was like the equivalent of slamming my penis into a drawer and hoping that it would bring me closer to god. |
Josh D.
11.09.10 | They'll probably try to make the US an officially Christian nation. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | well i mean by the end of it people were comparing sweden to somalia and somehow trying to relate it to the argument of freed markets vs. controlled markets. |
redskyformiles
11.09.10 | i wish america would go back to no regulations, at least in the food and drug markets. i would love to help revive patent medicine. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | once again I have no problem with "regulations", rather I think regulators should be subjected to competition. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | lol wtf. sounds like a trollin debate |
Josh D.
11.09.10 | Regulate the regulators. |
thebhoy
11.09.10 | I'm still pissed about the 25% Whiskey Tax. Goddam Federalists, that's not what we fought for!
I think I have the answer thought:
...that's a paddlin
/thread |
thebhoy
11.09.10 | *though |
Enotron
11.09.10 | checking to see if thread is closed |
Enotron
11.09.10 | it's not |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | was funnier when mimsy did it that one time
but still lold when you did it too eno
luv u eno |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | I for one welcome our new incest overlords. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | counterfeit i now lower your curfew to 10:30 and no boozing on the weekend |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | i'm gonna get drunk as my country burns around me. then i'll raise an army of klokateers to
burn
it all
down |
Enotron
11.09.10 | as long as it isn't on a weekend!! |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | fine. still gonna get baked though. |
Hep Kat
11.09.10 | hey do i look like feit whoyou seem to have some sort of mystic cuntroll over
i think not sir |
G3N3R1C
11.09.10 | lolpolitix
kk, back to Black Ops... |
Enotron
11.09.10 | not when i cut your allowance counterfeit |
Enotron
11.09.10 | also its only a wikipedia link, but it provides interesting insight on how things were ran without government in somalia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia#Social_organisation |
thebhoy
11.09.10 | Wow this thread actually makes me sad when I read it. So much lol stupidity and not "hey your opinion is different then mine you're retarded" but like, not knowing what separation of church and state actually is, or thinking that getting rid of the two party system will change anything (it won't, look at Canadian politics).
Lol Sputnikpolitics. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | bro, i gots people. i dont need no cash. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | ok but i replace your clothing with dresses, make u look stoopid nobody like u |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | bro. ill be high. i wont give a fuck. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Anyway, I bet there's only going to be a single major bill come out of the next Congress due to neither party having complete power, especially because of the Republicans' "my way or the highway" attitude. |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | you made me eternium...
THIS TIME IMMA LET IT ALL COME OUT
THIS TIME IMMA STAND UP AND SHOUT
IMMA DO THINGS MY WAY
ITS MY WAY
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY! |
eternium
11.09.10 | sigh |
Enotron
11.09.10 | uh nobody gon smoke u out when ya look dum |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | eno
ya done
they totally will
they gonna be like "lol let's get high"
|
Enotron
11.09.10 | ok we move to alabama where dey beat up queers |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | okay. if we went there then things would be different. |
eternium
11.09.10 | Does anyone have to remind themselves that Boehner isn't pronounced boner? |
Enotron
11.09.10 | NO DRUG FOR YOU |
Counterfeit
11.09.10 | oh hey guys apparently i got drunk this weekend and made out with a dude.
think his name was dryden. |
DiceMan
11.09.10 | Profit is all the businesses care about while the regulators are put there to protect consumers.
Enter Enron. |
Enotron
11.09.10 | enron? |
Zizzer
11.09.10 | I was very happy with how the election went. |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | you guys should go to Yahoo.com, click any article, and then read the comments.
have a nice night |
Enotron
11.09.10 | ^you appear to be quite mad |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | you wish |
Enotron
11.09.10 | i feel bad though because you've sporadically posted some perdddy scathing comments but nobody responded to them so hear u go : ) |
djunior
11.09.10 | my views are more democratic, but i hate the 2 party system. a dumbass party name shouldnt decide what someones beliefs are. our crooked government needs to burn.
and #5 owns |
PuddlesPuddles
11.09.10 | Everyone in this entire thread is wrong in their belief |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | don't you dare pity me |
eternium
11.09.10 | djunior obviously doesn't understand how a representative democracy works. |
Skybreaker
11.09.10 | Fuck liberals |
Enotron
11.09.10 | oh pretty mindtrain you're so naive, but it comes off so cute, we don't want to fix you
we love you just the way you are |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | Nice input skybreaker |
ThirtySixChambers
11.09.10 | "and #5 owns"
hell yeah |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | did you really just call me those things?
who's "we"?
now I'm paranoid |
Enotron
11.09.10 | i was quoting lyrics
but i replaced "baby" with "mindtrain" |
MindTrain
11.09.10 | well, don't do it again. |
