theacademy: so is atheism its own religion now??

theacademy 03.03.12	The Congregation of American Atheists: they're basically trolling for the truth
ASnideRemark 03.03.12	I'm an atheist because I don't believe in a deity, I could give less of a fuck what organizations and such they make up. Technically atheism is considered a non-religion.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	I see no controversy coming from this
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	Only so many potheads
climactic 03.03.12	its the complete absence of religion i dont know why people are so gay about it, some atheist spokespeople are worse than the religious ones
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"I see no controversy coming from this [2]" They certainly like to "convert" others in the same way religious people do. In some sense, yes, atheism is its own religion.
Ponton 03.03.12	yeah why doesnt everyone just fuck off away from each other?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	atheism can't be a religion, it is like calling not collecting stamps a hobby.
theacademy 03.03.12	I'm a jew but i don't believe in a deity, and i definitely wouldn't consider myself as religious as these guys
TheSpirit 03.03.12	because that would be too easy so jared are you "back" now or what
Activista anti-MTV 03.03.12	the church of satan is its own religion atheists usually aren't organized enough for anything like religion... WRITE STUFF DOWN xoxo
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"i dont know why people are so gay about it, some atheist spokespeople are worse than the religious ones" I said this once before, but I find that gnostic theists and gnostic atheists are almost equally bad.
auberginedreams 03.03.12	atheism has been its own religion for a long time now. didn't you guys see that south park episode?
Tyrael 03.03.12	atheism is as much a religion as 'off' is a TV station
theacademy 03.03.12	but what if when you turned your TV off and started reading a book, your TV started telling you to close your book and stare at his blank screen
TheSpirit 03.03.12	I'm jewish too academy :] and from the sound of you and I act very similarly when approaching religion. I only went to one year of hebrew school (which i even started years too late) and don't really "celebrate" any of the holidays that don't include presents. i knew i felt a connection to you
Ponton 03.03.12	nah, not really. i cant take anything seriously around here since i kind of left, though its a easy way to waste time between work shifts
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	"Everyone is born an atheist, it is the default" Not true.
Ire 03.03.12	inb4 condescending atheists
mxbrady 03.03.12	Anyone who says atheism is a religion is trolling, or a complete idiot with no idea what religion means.
theacademy 03.03.12	:D sorry for the deleted comments maniac, puddles, trebor i just wanted tyra to see my reply... i read all of them and didn't mind them at all
Activista anti-MTV 03.03.12	sometimes i wonder about this too... what is religion?
theacademy 03.03.12	i think its just a belief system or pattern of perceived truths
JizzInMyPants 03.03.12	athiesm is not a religion, but can be part of one I.E. Raëlism, a religion that does not believe in a God....but it is a religion.....an atheist religion, but is athiesm itself a religion? no
Ponton 03.03.12	a crutch
Trebor17 03.03.12	Everyone is born an atheist, it's the default
Activista anti-MTV 03.03.12	religion is organization. crutches are a crutch, but sometimes they are necessary
theacademy 03.03.12	alright, let me correct myself: the word "Atheism" is not religious in itself, it is descriptive however, the practice of atheism has become somewhat of a religious endeavor (this is my contention)
theacademy 03.03.12	specifically, the practice of atheism portrayed in that article
mxbrady 03.03.12	Atheist simply means non theist, or not believing in a god(s). This in no way implies personal beliefs or personal religion. An atheist CAN be religious, practicing an atheistic (non god worshiping) religion, such as Buddhism. THE MORE YOU KNOW
Ponton 03.03.12	everyone lives on such crutches
someguest 03.03.12	"Everyone is born an atheist, it is the default" lol fuck this born with bullshit. anything which can go one way or another is not decided upon at your birth. get a grip.
theacademy 03.03.12	@mxbrady yes i do not disagree with that^
Pentagon 03.03.12	fuck me if it is... personally I dont believe in a deity, which makes me atheist I guess. I dont mind other beliefs, but its organized religion and the holier than thou attitude that many of them employ which pisses me off
climactic 03.03.12	"Everyone is born an atheist, it's the default" when youre born youre not even capable of that kind of thought. if you mean that if someone was never exposed to any sort of religion while growing up, that they would be atheist....well i dont think thats true
Trebor17 03.03.12	Yeah I was gonna mention buddhism
jdennis31 03.03.12	@mxbrady can you have a religion without a deity? like the technical definition
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	Funny enough, you'll see many more atheists employing a "holier than thou" mindset. Then all they have to say is "because science" or "because logic" which I find the irresponsible misuse insulting and pisses me off
theacademy 03.03.12	yeah liberalism and conservatism don't strictly have deities but theyre def religions
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	You could definitely draw comparisons between the hardliner atheists and those that worship god/s, but really it's just ideological blindness that links them, and that's true of any group of people that choose to think there is a definitive answer to life. Agnosticism seems like a better bet, either way.
mxbrady 03.03.12	Yeah you can, a religion is just a shared belief system consisting usually of dogma, literature, practices, etc. You don't even necessarily need a higher power in religion, though it's not common.
theacademy 03.03.12	you can't use "religious dogma" within your definition of "religion" dude
Yazz_Flute 03.03.12	"I'm an atheist because I don't believe in a deity, I could give less of a fuck what organizations and such they make up. Technically atheism is considered a non-religion." *Couldn't give less of a fuck.
someguest 03.03.12	and really, most people look at religion wrong anyway. it's about improving your life, not stocking up an afterlife. the whole existence of an afterlife is an added 'plus' if it turns out your were right. those who base their faith on the fear of a terrible eternity are wasting their time and the time of others.
Trebor17 03.03.12	Did an atheist make you question your beliefs? cry me a river
Tyrannic 03.03.12	http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2010/07/atheism-is-religion.html /thread
theacademy 03.03.12	u talking to me?
mxbrady 03.03.12	Oops. I didn't mean to put that in there, I'm just used to using the two words together I guess.
climactic 03.03.12	yeah agnosticism is really the only thing that makes sense to me. im an agnostic deist and while atheism definitely makes more sense to me than organized religion, it can be closed-minded as well
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	The answer is not found on the internet. It is found alone. In nature. Amongst the slugs and the mudflies.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"Everyone is born an atheist, it's the default" As a default, we're animals. When you bring someone into the world of language and culture - right from the very start - it's difficult to avoid belief in something, whether it's santa claus or god.
Trebor17 03.03.12	yeah my assholes parents tricked me with santa claus and god
theacademy 03.03.12	if your mother is jewish, you're actually born jewish (that's the default)
someguest 03.03.12	yeah KjSwantko shame on people for discussing the only issue that hasn't been resolved through time
theacademy 03.03.12	i just deleted him
North0House2 03.03.12	Lol your description for 3. Yeah, I consider following any group of people or philosophies a religion. If you affiliate yourself to a number of civilians in some cerebral way, then technically, you could be in a religion. Religion doesn't need to be true or correct. I mean, none of it really is anyway. So, there's no point.
theacademy 03.03.12	yea i can dig that
mxbrady 03.03.12	I don't think you can be considered religious as a child really. You shouldn't be considered any religion until you're old enough to think independently and critically. As a child you don't believe in religion, you believe what your parents tell you.
someguest 03.03.12	And really, take a look at Jesus for example. He couldn't stand religious people either. If given the choice, he hung out with the drunks instead of the priests. The religious are famous for talking of something in which they know nothing about, being closed minded, and unaware of the problems of others.
theacademy 03.03.12	kind of like those atheists in the article
Trebor17 03.03.12	if your mother is jewish, you're actually born jewish (that's the default) That's just their dumb shit belief, it doesn't make it true
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"If you affiliate yourself to a number of civilians in some cerebral way, then technically, you could be in a religion. Religion doesn't need to be true or correct. I mean, none of it really is anyway. So, there's no point." Technically religion involves believing in a god or gods, surely. And there's no point to anything in human existence. We're driven by a mix of psychological and biological factors into making up meaning and sticking it onto the world.
theacademy 03.03.12	If you're born on U.S. soil, you're a citizen of the united states. that's a fact. If you're born to a jewish mother (or if you convert to judaism) you are accepted by the jewish faith. same principle.
Tyrannic 03.03.12	"The religious are famous for talking of something in which they know nothing about, being closed minded, and unaware of the problems of others." see gandhi for a wonderful example of this
DoubtGin 03.03.12	"The religious are famous for talking of something in which they know nothing about, being closed minded, and unaware of the problems of others." worst statement ever good job
mxbrady 03.03.12	To be religious you must believe in that religion. A newborn baby does not believe in Judaism.
Knott- 03.03.12	People who call atheism a religion are just twisting the definition of "religion" far enough to encompass some traits of the way certain atheists behave and hoping that idiots ignore all the other traits that differentiate the two things.
theacademy 03.03.12	mxbrady: look up the word "tautology." that's twice now
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Part of how people are defined is by their position in a social structure. A criiminal might not believe in prison, doesn't mean he can walk through bars.
theacademy 03.03.12	strikey: i dont expect you to sift through the comments but I tried to clarify that the AmericanAtheists (see the link) are behaving in a way that i would consider "religious" not everyone who adheres to atheism
theacademy 03.03.12	very well put, phleb
someguest 03.03.12	"People who call atheism a religion are just twisting the definition of "religion" far enough to encompass some traits of the way certain atheists behave and hoping that idiots ignore all the other traits that differentiate the two things." I don't have issue with this statement. What I have issue with is how people dismiss some atheist fanatics, but convey that all religious people are fanatics. It's a pretty big double standard.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"People who call atheism a religion are just twisting the definition of "religion" far enough to encompass some traits of the way certain atheists behave and hoping that idiots ignore all the other traits that differentiate the two things." There are atheists who claim that god cannot exist, which seems to push belief to the equivalent of religous faith. Saying atheism as a whole is a religion won't stick, but there are links worth talking about, maybe, even if it's in a figurative sense... You don't have to suggest that all atheists hold the same position to do it, or stretch the term to any degree.
Trebor17 03.03.12	yeah citizenship is not a belief system and not related at all
Ignimbrite 03.03.12	"i dont know why people are so gay about it, some atheist spokespeople are worse than the religious ones" this
someguest 03.03.12	"yeah citizenship is not a belief system and not related at all" I disagree. It's pretty lulzy that we have to respect this 'country' just because we're born here.
mxbrady 03.03.12	@theacademy I don't think anyone would disagree with my statement that "to be religious you must believe in that religion." I wasn't giving a formal definition. Instead of attacking my wording, why don't you counter my argument? Anyway, Merriam-Webster dictionary entry for "religious" : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
Trebor17 03.03.12	What do you mean respect? I don't respect dis shit
Ignimbrite 03.03.12	"It's pretty lulzy that we have to respect this 'country' just because we're born here." just out of curiosity, why is "country" in quotes?
someguest 03.03.12	You respect it enough to be called a citizen of it.
someguest 03.03.12	Because it's a belief system.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Citizenship is absolutely a belief system. It's a belief that national borders actually seperate the world in a useful, meaningful way, that people within those borders have a connection beyond mere physical proximity, that the laws and conditions of the culture are, to some degree at least, worth engaging with.
theacademy 03.03.12	i am not sure what you mean by "default position" identifying oneself as a member of a religion can occur independently of any beliefs held (or, since it was in response to trebor's idiotic point about everyone being born atheists) any capacity for belief.
Shuyin 03.03.12	i thought atheism meant having no religion
theacademy 03.03.12	@mxbrady I would disagree with your statement, both in substance and on rhetorical grounds. i think you're very dumb now, officially.
mxbrady 03.03.12	Everyone IS born an atheist. As we have already established, atheist means not believing in god(s). Newborn aren't capable of believing much of anything, therefore they are atheist. You're still thinking of atheist as a religion, not by its formal definition.
Knott- 03.03.12	Yeah I just scroll right to the bottom of lists like these acad. And I agree, Phlebas, that there are links worth talking about in the way that people behave. The problems I have stem from the point where the implication is that, because atheists in some ways act like Christians in the way they present or defend or promote their views, their views are in some ways inherently similar to those of Christians. As long as we separate those two notions, I'd be fine with the idea that some people treat atheism as a "religion" (I used to, when I was 19), but because I don't trust people's intellectual honesty or plain intelligence to make that distinction, I think it's damaging to suggest that atheism is akin to religion using those exact words.
someguest 03.03.12	Does a child know where it's born? Does it know if the country it was born into is the best choice for success?
Tyrannic 03.03.12	ok practical application: i don't believe in gravity. the current definition is being thrown into question with advancements in quantum mechanics. (i don't know the specifics of any of this, because i know nothing about physics, just reporting what i heard) so when i say i don't believe in gravity, i'm saying the current definition of gravity is flawed and i don't buy it. but guess what: I DONT FLOAT.
theacademy 03.03.12	"Seeing as Judaism is a philosophy and as a child you aren't capable of adopting it as a belief system, being born would only make you the son of a jewish woman, not a jew." Judaism is not just a philosophy. It's an entire culture... it spans millennia. this is such a reductive position, stokes.
AtomicShane 03.03.12	GODS NOT REAL. There now we can continue to live our lives lol
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Not believing in god requires some understanding of what a god is. Animals aren't atheists, and neither are tables and lampshades. Until you're old enough to say what you are, you're what your parents say you are.
mxbrady 03.03.12	@theacademy It's too bad you can't hold an actual debate and provide decent counterarguments. Insulting my intelligence is a great way to respond too. Ad hominem shows a great deal about the person using it.
theacademy 03.03.12	i actually bought an atheist table on the internet a few years ago... cost an arm and a leg to ship but it was totally worth it
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Agreed, Knott. The distinction is crucial.
theacademy 03.03.12	don't pretend that the ad hominem didn't directly follow your completely unfounded dismissal of my point
Trebor17 03.03.12	Animals don't believe in god because they don't have the capacity to make shit up like we do
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	The god of tables is gonna be pissed, acad
mxbrady 03.03.12	What, that I used the word religion to describe religious? Yeah, that definitely disproves anything and everything I've said. Good point. You're so much smarter than me...
mxbrady 03.03.12	How did you get so smart? I bet God gave you some special smart powers to combat all the dirty atheists in the world.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs&feature=g-vrec&context=G251298dRVAAAAAAAAAg 100% accurate
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	you are sold the belief to believe in a diety you don't come up with it on your own.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	anyone want to have a go at me? I'm all ears
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	mxbrady rocking the atheist-chip-on-the-shoulder look, mixed with a touch of implied self-deprecation.
theacademy 03.03.12	once again, i don't believe in a deity edit: @mxbrady
theacademy 03.03.12	@stokes no worries
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I must say I am a douche when it comes to atheism. However religion in current society is destructive and restrictive, I feel obligated to have to speak up against something that has no logical backing that is hurting society.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	I always tell people I dabble in atheism and agnosticism, but I'm always a bad Christian that doesn't believe in God. Literally everyone, it's a real problem.
someguest 03.03.12	"Not believing in god requires some understanding of what a god is. Animals aren't atheists, and neither are tables and lampshades. Until you're old enough to say what you are, you're what your parents say you are." I could not agree more.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	"Not being a fan of death metal requires some understanding of what a death metal is. Animals aren't death metal haters, and neither are tables and lampshades. Until you're old enough to say what you are, you're what your parents say you are." Absurd argument.
theacademy 03.03.12	Yeah i rarely use those 'a' words but I don't renounce them either. I identify myself as a jew because of the history and tradition and the blood that runs backwards through time, not because of my belief in particular stories and rejection of other stories.
theacademy 03.03.12	@phleb
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	by that standard then I am a jew as well.
theacademy 03.03.12	word, brev
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"I hate atheists who try to convert people. Could you be more hypocritical." As an atheist, I have to agree with this.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@iambandersnatch: How is trying to convert people hypocritical? Religion is destructive and founded on nothing while atheism is founded on rational logic and education amongst the population for atheism remains largely untaught. Why should I accept something that tries to impose on my life that is based on nothing?
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"However religion in current society is destructive and restrictive, I feel obligated to have to speak up against something that has no logical backing that is hurting society." It was always restrictive; the belief in anything creates a border against non-belief, and religion has been used as a structure for social organization through the ages. How many laws in the societies of the world were (at the very least) provoked by some ethical base born of religion? Destructive... is that necessarily a bad thing? Sexual desire has some insanely destructive properties lurking in its depths, but we live with it. Conflict and destruction are profoundly human traits; and they make life pretty damn interesting. When was the last time you watched a film or read a book about people being nice to each other?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	if you can't give an argument for why you believe in God then you have no reason to. If there really is a God then you shouldn't fear evidence.
theacademy 03.03.12	"for atheism remains largely untaught." ok this is over.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@considerphelbas: that is your argument?? Restriction and destruction make life interesting so we should allow it? Okay.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Same here, academy. I find it makes life a lot more interesting, and gives me some feeling of connection to the past.
theacademy 03.03.12	his position is much more nuanced than that, man. don't be rude or ill delete your comments. @funeral
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@theacademy: what I mean is that people often don't know both sides.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"what I mean is that people often don't know both sides." Umm...
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	question?
theacademy 03.03.12	but implying that one must be taught atheism (or really, that there are definitively two sides)... doesn't that seem an awful lot like a doctrine? doesn't that cut against what many professed atheists said above @funeral
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	Lol I hardly believe I am being rude, I have read considerphelbas point a few times and I have yet to see it any different maybe I just am not getting the message.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	if you consider logical reasoning a doctrine then go ahead and call it a doctrine. I never said I was atheist I always say I am a skeptic.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	Acad's right, Funeral. 'I never said I was atheist I always say I am a skeptic.' It's quite obvious you're an atheist.
Killerhit 03.03.12	I am an atheist Seriously. Look at bands like atreyu and tell me theres a god above
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	Atheism doesn't have fundamental rules you are to abide, it just provides counter-arguments. Hell atheism provides nothing it is a state derived from reason.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"@considerphelbas: that is your argument?? Restriction and destruction make life interesting so we should allow it? Okay." Eh? I'm saying that restiction and destruction are fundamental properties of the human existence, and for all their problems, of which there are frightening levels, they offer a great deal more than just bad shit. If you got rid of religion, there would still be the desire to overpower one another, take another's posessions, kill, rape... when you engage in any social order, you hit limits. If you lived alone forever, you would hit limits. There is no freedom from restriction. And personally the idea of life without destruction terrifies me, which is why I always hated the idea of heaven. Eternity spent being nice to everyone, loving everyone.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	The restrictions religion provides are unnecessary though. Restrictions have to exist for a reason.
iambandersnatch 03.03.12	@ funeral I think you could say that atheism is "taught" in a sense that among most "intelligent" circles there is a -ton- of peer pressure to be atheist. Which is kind of funny because most intelligent people believe in freedom of religion but then turn around and expect everyone to be atheist. (Hopefully my comment doesn't get deleted this time lol. I thought my last comment, albeit short and blunt, addressed my feelings on the subject.)
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	there is pressure to be atheist if you can't back up anything you say. I would gladly step down if the arguments could be backed up. Hell I'd even convert.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	How relevant are your arguments? Personally how much does religion actually restrict you? I'm curious where all this righteousness and rebellion comes from as opposed to other more real restrictive factors
theacademy 03.03.12	how do you have arguments without rules? If atheism provides nothing then what are you arguing that we should be teaching? When did logical reasoning become trolling?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@academy: religion provides rules that only restrict and provide no benefit in modern society. Arguing has rules to an extent because it allows people to organize themselves it does not hurt or discriminate against anybody. What I am saying is atheism isn't a doctrine, logical reasoning exists outside of atheism- atheism is the state that logical reasoning brings you to.
theacademy 03.03.12	@academy: religion provides rules that only restrict and provide no benefit to society. holy shit you did not just say that.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	to modern society* what are the rules of religion's benefits that aren't based on irrationality?
iambandersnatch 03.03.12	How can atheists back up what they say any better than religious people can? I'm always confused on that one. The big bang theory is pretty agreed upon these days but my hangup there is what came before that dense ball of gas? Didn't something have to put it there? I never try to convert anyone but a beginning without religion evades me. How can something come from nothing unless there is a higher power not bound by the physical rules of the universe?
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	Atheism is just the other side of the fence that is logic. Does not suffice to say atheism nor theism is created by logical reasoning
theacademy 03.03.12	"atheism is the state that logical reasoning brings you to" this basically sounds like the most religious thing ever
klap 03.03.12	jose i kind of hate you for making this thread
theacademy 03.03.12	ive been editing out the unfunny bits but there's been some great facepalm throughout if u wanna dip into it on a saturday afternoon
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	"this basically sounds like the most religious thing ever" except there is nothing logical about religion.
Bloodhail 03.03.12	@funeral you justify converting to atheism because you believe you are saving others from a bad choice, how is this different from someone who truly believes they are saving someone from eternal suffering? You both have identical intentions in that sense.
theacademy 03.03.12	its two furbys making out
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@stokes: Furbies
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@bloodhail: Yes they do have the same intention you are correct.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"The restrictions religion provides are unnecessary though. Restrictions have to exist for a reason. " Even as a non-believer, I have to disagree very strongly with this, on every possible level. The idea of anything being necessary is entirely down to perspective, which will be influenced by cultural factors to the n-th degree. The existence of the human race is not necessary, it just is. We can create an ethical framework and seek to apply it to the world, but these restrictions will cause conflict. Reason is not some perfect tool used by perfectly autonomous individuals. We are subject to various drives and conditions that guide and press us down certain paths, and reason is as vulnerable as any other method of understanding.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"except there is nothing logical about religion." Inductive logic is logic, too. And inductive logic can make a case for the existence of god.
klap 03.03.12	over/under 100 years until aliens land on earth
theacademy 03.03.12	i don't think he knows what inductive logic means
Trebor17 03.03.12	over They probably think we aren't ready
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	A lot of our ideas of "democracy" stem from religious beliefs. Puritans, Quakers, etc.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@Considerphelbas: I see what you mean perhaps I should clarify as: man made restrictions. Reason must be based on logical grounds or for a purpose or else it is just... there.
theacademy 03.03.12	alien's won't land, they've actually been here the whole time all small breeds of dog = aliens
klap 03.03.12	waiting for that scene in the thing where the huskie totally dominates the other huskies with its myriad tentacles
theacademy 03.03.12	so gnarly
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	What is the inductive conclusion for why there is a God? This sounds interesting.
theacademy 03.03.12	better question: when the entire human population first decreases, how large a factor will it decrease by
iambandersnatch 03.03.12	It's either inductive or deductive depending on whether or not you accept 1) time being a finite or infinite thing 2) the physical "rules" of science that we think we know. But it's basically the aquinas-esque theory that I was alluding to above - you have your ball of gas which explodes (the big bang), but according to the rules of science, the ball of gas had to come from something else (because you can't create matter). So what came before that? and what came before that? etc. ad infinitum until you realize with this chain of reasoning the only explanation for a beginning can be "supernatural being that doesn't obey the rules of science and time".
theacademy 03.03.12	nevermind, it happened already... -.0003% since october 2011
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	supernatural being breaks this logic though. Also part of the big bang is that they believe that there are particles that can come from nothing.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"How can atheists back up what they say any better than religious people can? I'm always confused on that one. The big bang theory is pretty agreed upon these days but my hangup there is what came before that dense ball of gas? Didn't something have to put it there? I never try to convert anyone but a beginning without religion evades me. How can something come from nothing unless there is a higher power not bound by the physical rules of the universe?" Either the universe and the gunk before it existed foerever, or god did. And our brains might not be capable of understanding that time might not have existed before the big bang. Science suggests that's the case, we're just too close to being animals to get that what's beyond our understanding is not impossible.. And a clear-eyed atheist will simply not believe in god because there is no concrete evidence, which is very true. Only the closed-minded will claim there can be no god.
klap 03.03.12	academy if you were a betting mad what odds would you place on the mayans being right dec 2012
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I have stated various times that I don't believe in God because there is no evidence.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	They can't be right, they're dead
theacademy 03.03.12	yo its actually pretty scary how new york didn't have a winter this year thats all im gonna say
klap 03.03.12	what kind of odds would i place on puddles stepping into a puddle between now and monday at noon. 22-1
Gyromania 03.03.12	"so is atheism its own religion now??" Based off of the very definition of religion alone... no, but I get what's implied here and I agree with it. Atheism has with it all of the ingredients for religion: cultural and belief systems with worldviews, but they don't pertain to spirituality. Surprisingly though - even in being contrary to theistic practices and teachings - 'atheism' doesn't necessarily mean the opposite of religious. Certain religions (Taosim) define their followers as 'agnostic' and 'atheistic'. The only definition that defines the absence of any religion is 'irreligious'.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	"I have stated various times that I don't believe in God because there is no evidence." To be quite honest, there'll never be any physical evidence to prove the existence of God. It's only through rational thinking that you could come to conclude whether He exists or not
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	"what kind of odds would i place on puddles stepping into a puddle between now and monday at noon. 22-1" New York didn't have a winter, that's all im gonna say
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	And that goes equally for evolution and the big bang; some religions believe in both of those, so please don't bring the excuse of "logic".
theacademy 03.03.12	lol
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	just like how the green party of Canada is a religion or the social etiquette for sitting on a bus is a religion.
djocelot 03.03.12	Asking people to think rationally and objectively is hardly "trying to covert them".
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	^
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	@theacademy, not trying to be rude or anything, but why are you deleting comments? o.o
klap 03.03.12	religious people aren't rational o snap
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	>:(
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	@Gyro, I didn't know that about Taoists. I think that atheist or secular views were originally more based on governing people than going against religion.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	believing something without evidence or justification is by definition irrational.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	So you're implying that only atheists are able to think rationally? gee, aren't you hilarious
iambandersnatch 03.03.12	Arguments on both sides have some merits and some serious drawbacks (or leaps of faith, one might call it). We're all shooting in the dark with almost nothing to go on. To pretend to have the answer at this point in history is pretty foolish (queue the "a wise man knows he knows very little" quote) . Believing in particles that come from nothing takes roughly the same amount of faith as believing that human sacrifice grants you the blessing of the sun god.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	"believing something without evidence or justification is by definition irrational." EXACTLY . So then nobody is right, which is the point. Both sides are poorly armed and pre-emptive in this situation so sit back and laugh at the joke and listen to music
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I didn't say religious people can't think rationally but when it comes to theism, it is irrational to believe in God because the belief is based on nothing.
theacademy 03.03.12	"your entire belief system, and the belief system and traditions of every generation of your entire family, is a myth" =/= Asking people to think rationally and objectively. it's pretty ethnocentric tbh
UnnamedOcean 03.03.12	Atheism is a singular idea, the rejection of a belief. Just because people can be categorized by this belief doesn't make it a religion. Theism itself is not a religion until it is applied to a collection of ideals or traditions. Because there is no other requirement other than disbelief of a deity to be considered atheist, it is not a religion.
klap 03.03.12	funeral is it irrational to believe that my orlando magic will win the nba championship this year even though Vegas currently has their odds at 50-1?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@iambanders: but there is a reasonable foundation for it where there is no reasonable foundation for religion.
theacademy 03.03.12	I deleted comments that were like: oh look a religious thred on sputnik or "tldr" or other inanity
Gyromania 03.03.12	LifeAsAChipmunk: there's some truth to that, and you'd likely be surprised to know that other religions have such classifications as those of Taoists - such as Buddhism. Also... holy shit my comment was quickly buried.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	if there is evidence for Orlando Magic to win then yes. Winning something isn't by chance there is a lot of factors at play. However Klap that is a very strong point, one of the best I have ever come across.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'Believing in particles that come from nothing takes roughly the same amount of faith as believing that human sacrifice grants you the blessing of the sun god.' Eh, you can measure those particles, correct? I'm not huge on particle physics.
theacademy 03.03.12	UnnamedOcean and Gyromania: this has been clarified above please ctrl+f for the word "strikey" that should do the trick and save you reading
klap 03.03.12	funeral i actually just laughed at loud at your response to me thank you over/under 400 comments for this list
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"@Considerphelbas: I see what you mean perhaps I should clarify as: man made restrictions. Reason must be based on logical grounds or for a purpose or else it is just... there." Religion, and its restrictions, are loaded with purpose. It/they have enriched, guided and ordered every society on earth, produced countless works of astounding art and generally coloured human existence since the year dot. They continue to do so today. Even the various brutalities provoked by religion are as purposed as anything human's have ever done. Logic is a strange beast, and unless someone has every single atom of information, which will never be the case, it is vulnerable to misuse, just like religion. I'd argue that experience, a rich and varied cultural patterning of the world, offers more than the reliance on logic. We should certainly war against the madnesses born of religous faith, but it's a fact and we have to deal with it. Play with, attack it, laugh at it, engage with it, acknowledge what it offers and what it takes from us. That's how I see it.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@stokes: Well I would probably argue back but I see what you mean lol. Just because it may be annoying or inconvenient doesn't make it irrelevant though.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	As for justification, there has to be some reason for why the Earth functions so perfectly (in regards to nature). There has to be some sort of higher being that initiated such cycles; it definitely couldn't come to be by chance.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	Can you guys slow down? My newborn nephew is having a hard time keeping up with these head-exploders
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@innocentshadow: why couldn't it have come by chance? Are you familiar with probability? The world is far from perfect.
djocelot 03.03.12	""your entire belief system, and the belief system and traditions of every generation of your entire family, is a myth" =/= Asking people to think rationally and objectively. it's pretty ethnocentric tbh" so just because its someones "culture" justifies indoctrination?
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	" The world is far from perfect." http://i39.tinypic.com/senk79.jpg /thread
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	Meh, I don't know; things like the water cycle is an amazing thing in itself
theacademy 03.03.12	"so just because its someones "culture" justifies indoctrination?" no that's exactly my point
klap 03.03.12	djocelot i see what you did there putting culture in quotations
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	ALSO, have you ever wondered why humans as a species is so much more advanced than any other? I mean, no species can come close to touching us, in terms of complexity.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I really doubt the bible teaches us anything humans couldn't have come to on their own that is beneficial excluding a few things such as the creation of marriage.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'http://i39.tinypic.com/senk79.jpg' m/ Don't forget the nitrogen cycle...
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"What is the inductive conclusion for why there is a God? This sounds interesting." There are many inductive arguments for god/s. I disagree with all of them, and some of them are downright retarded, but they follow the rules of inductive logic so they are logical. 'Logical' doesn't mean 'right', it's a little more complicated. And logic requires reason, so there are reasons for believing in god. There are also quite plausible psychoanalytic arguments for the existence of religous faith. Reason doesn't mean 'right' either, I'm afraid.
theacademy 03.03.12	@djocelot: wait, were you referring to "atheist culture" or judaism + islam?
UnnamedOcean 03.03.12	Nothing happened by chance. The planets didn't just accidentally fall into orbit around the sun.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'I really doubt the bible teaches us anything humans couldn't have come to on their own that is beneficial excluding a few things such as the creation of marriage.' There's really no way to prove that since religion appears in pretty much every culture, even the most backwards ones.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@Innocentshadow: Humans have intelligence yep, does that mean we are part of some sort of master plan? There are millions of animals with exclusive traits. Only platypuses lay eggs is that part of the plan too?
Gyromania 03.03.12	UnnamedOcean: Although largely considered in Western society as 'irreligious', very many atheists also consider themselves to be spiritual.
djocelot 03.03.12	I think these billboards are great, honestly. I do think that whatever works for you, works for you as long as you keep it to yourself, however a lot of people dont have the will to question what they've been taught. It hardly makes atheism a religion by asking people to second guess being "faithful".
Gyromania 03.03.12	acad: oh, thanks! I actually didn't bother reading through most of this because it's an extremely long thread and there are a lot of really stupid posts.
klap 03.03.12	gravitational pulls!
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	Negating does not equal Questioning
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	Exclusive traits is irregardless; that's like saying, oh, fish can swim, therefore humans are no longer special.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	that's because humans aren't special.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	But then again, I bet there are fish in the sea arguing on whether mermaid actually exist.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	Oh dear, your stupidity is killing me now.
PuddlesPuddles 03.03.12	NOW THAT THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN CLEARED UP, Is the Sun really orbiting around the Earth because it loves it?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	why are we special because we have intelligence and can talk? Those are traits, nothing else but traits. Every creature has exclusive traits. What is your point?
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"ALSO, have you ever wondered why humans as a species is so much more advanced than any other? I mean, no species can come close to touching us, in terms of complexity." There's a book in the Oxford University Very Short Introduction range on evolution. Might be worth a look, even if only to round out your arguments against it.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	Look at what we've achieved! How can you just disregard that as a "trait"?
djocelot 03.03.12	"Negating does not equal Questioning" Willing to consider negating it is questioning though. "that's because humans aren't special." YES. the whole concept that this universe was created for us is absolutely retarded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Weu7Rh6dYrM
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	advanced is down to interpenetration. Alligators I believe it is can not get diseases, that is pretty damn advanced.
InnocentShadow 03.03.12	Now then, I'm not saying every other species is useless; I'm just saying that while evolution was taking place, something must have given human, as a species, a "boost" so to speak, because there's too much of a difference between us and other species.
Gyromania 03.03.12	" I mean, no species can come close to touching us, in terms of complexity." This can be argued... but I'm not entirely sure that I want to, lol. "There are many inductive arguments for god/s. I disagree with all of them, and some of them are downright retarded, but they follow the rules of inductive logic so they are logical. 'Logical' doesn't mean 'right', it's a little more complicated. And logic requires reason, so there are reasons for believing in god. There are also quite plausible psychoanalytic arguments for the existence of religous faith. Reason doesn't mean 'right' either, I'm afraid." Also, this ^^
theacademy 03.03.12	"I think these billboards are great, honestly. I do think that whatever works for you, works for you as long as you keep it to yourself" you seriously do not see the contradiction here?
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"a "boost" so to speak, because there's too much of a difference between us and other species." A big black monolith perchance?
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"YES. the whole concept that this universe was created for us is absolutely retarded." I think humans are special for extensive use of tools, the way we manipulate our environment and simply our basic adaptability (through the ice age, people living in most parts of the world). But I don't think that at all about people.
Gyromania 03.03.12	Okay... maybe I was wrong - perhaps a 'like' and 'dislike' button would be ideal for this site. Also, this list/thread is great.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	evolution is real I have a Pelipper.
theacademy 03.03.12	"a lot of people dont have the will to question what they've been taught." so i'm going to teach them what I think about what they think because I am a very smart person who also just happens to be white and lol look at their silly languages.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	asking them to question the validity of what they think isn't a personal opinion.
djocelot 03.03.12	"so i'm going to teach them what I think about what they think because I am a very smart person who also just happens to be white and lol look at their silly languages." you extrapolated a lot of things from that billboard.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Asking anyone to do anything is applying your will to another. Wanting someone to question the validity of anything they think or believe implies that your method of understanding things is superior to theirs.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	So we should just let everyone believe whatever they want to believe and nobody should ever question anything?
theacademy 03.03.12	theyre specifically targeting religious communities.
klap 03.03.12	funeral i don't see the problem with letting people believe what they want to believe. pretty sure they can always change their minds
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	asking someone to be skeptical when they would not have thought of this themselves is imposing yea. Not gonna even try to argue that.
djocelot 03.03.12	"Asking anyone to do anything is applying your will to another. Wanting someone to question the validity of anything they think or believe implies that your method of understanding things is superior to theirs." so if i was watching somebody repeatedly hit themselves in the face with a brick and asked them to stop and consider a life of no head trauma im implying my superiority?
klap 03.03.12	that's a really analogous situation well done
Gyromania 03.03.12	Honestly, those billboards are pretty fucking offensive. I truly don't subscribe to any religion, but it's pretty contradictory of those who fight what they call 'ignorance' with ignorance.
redskyformiles 03.03.12	Came for this thread for the lulz. They delivered. -hardline atheist.
theacademy 03.03.12	"So we should just let everyone believe whatever they want to believe and nobody should ever question anything?" the point you're missing is that you, and the AmericanAtheists.org, are really in no position to force people to "question" their beliefs... or rather, doing so is no different than a christian church putting up billboards in hebrew and arabic telling them about mr. jesus
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	I guess it's hard to be unbiased.
djocelot 03.03.12	"theyre specifically targeting religious communities." a lot of unnecessary hate and suffering stems from religious communities, how is that a bad thing?
YankeeDudel 03.03.12	Agnosticism is the only thing that makes sense. Atheists piss me off just as much as religious folk do. Nobody knows for sure what the hell is going on so dont act like you do on either side of the spectrum. Just shut up and get drunk.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I wouldn't say it is offensive as it is arrogant.
theacademy 03.03.12	"a lot of unnecessary hate and suffering stems from religious communities, how is that a bad thing?" a lot of unnecessary hate comes from the music you listen to and the movies we talk about. I sure hope someone can help get us back on the right path
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"So we should just let everyone believe whatever they want to believe and nobody should ever question anything?" Nah, we should get stuck into life: argue, fight, scream etc (I'm not being facetious, I really believe this) but we should always be aware that every scrap of meaning we try to apply to the world is entirely made-up. Every religion, every ideology, every way of life will provoke conflict, misery, joy, interest, history etc, etc. Thinking that atheism (or any ideology) is gonna save the world kinda ignores the brutalities inflicted on the world by the dreaded spectre of capitalism, communism, racism....
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"Agnosticism is the only thing that makes sense." That's stretching things a bit. Also, are you agnostic theist or agnostic atheist (like me)?
djocelot 03.03.12	"but it's pretty contradictory of those who fight what they call 'ignorance' with ignorance." where is there any ignorance in the billboard? theacademy, do you feel billboards force you to do things?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	seriously watch this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs&feature=g-vrec&context=G251298dRVAAAAAAAAAg I've already posted it but nobody has commented on it :p
someguest 03.03.12	"Also part of the big bang is that they believe that there are particles that can come from nothing." yeah that doesn't sound like a supernatural being does it
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	each of these particles are God?
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	It really doesn't.
theacademy 03.03.12	no... rational people don't equate offensive messages with mind control or whatever youre babbling about to get this losing argument off its track...
djocelot 03.03.12	"a lot of unnecessary hate comes from the music you listen to and the movies we talk about. I sure hope someone can help get us back on the right path" Sure but nothing like violence towards homosexuals or forcing a woman to give birth to a child conceived by rape.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	religion directly encourages those acts though while the hate stemming from music taste is completely separate from the music itself.
theacademy 03.03.12	lol. my congregation is led by a lesbian rabbi.
Gyromania 03.03.12	"a lot of unnecessary hate and suffering stems from religious communities" And the same hate and suffering doesn't come from radically atheistic ideals?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@academy: that is just because those people choose to ignore fundamental parts of their religion.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"religion directly encourages those acts though while the hate stemming from music taste is completely separate from the music itself." That's why people hate on the biebs, because of biebs himself and not his awful music. It may not be violence, but it could certainly be harassment considering how extensive bieb hate is and what people say about him.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@gyromania: as far as I know securalism and atheism haven't hurt anyone
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	There's a lot of music that incites hatred, explicitly so in some cases. And there are peaceful religions, peaceful, non-hatefilled religous people all over the world.
someguest 03.03.12	"each of these particles are God?" aren't you witty
djocelot 03.03.12	"And the same hate and suffering doesn't come from radically atheistic ideals?" what is a radically atheist ideal? arguing that there is no god on the internet?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@lifeisachipmunk: you obviously didn't understand my point, no band or justin himself is telling you to harass him- people come up with this on their own while religion directly tells people to do these things to others.
theacademy 03.03.12	@funeralopolis, you're really good at trying to explain things you don't understand yourself and by 'good at trying' i mean 'persistent in the face of palm'
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	what am I not understanding? Enlighten me.
theacademy 03.03.12	"what is a radically atheist ideal?" id say singling out religious communities with messages intended to offend could fit this characterization
djocelot 03.03.12	"id say singling out religious communities with messages intended to offend could fit this characterization" which is obviously just as bad as genocide.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"people come up with this on their own while religion directly tells people to do these things to others." So a religion doing something is different than a person doing something? A religion can come up with things on its own. i.e. Protestant Reformation.
theacademy 03.03.12	start here: "that is just because those people choose to ignore fundamental parts of their religion."
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	People shouldn't get offended by asking them to think critically.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"People shouldn't get offended by asking them to think critically." Who decides what is critical or not?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	think skeptically* if that phrasing suits you better.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	'can you justify why you think this?' 'HOW DARE YOU?'
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"what is a radically atheist ideal?" An atheist ideal that blinds itself to everything but the negative aspects of religion and religous behaviour, an ideal that leads a person to believe religion should not be allowed to exist. There are people who have sacrificed their lives, happiness and well-being to help others, and have done so in the name of some magic man/woman/folks in the sky. Quite a bit of the advancement of the human race has been down to religous people, and putting forward a hardline stance against the very existence of it is as misguided and shameful as the acts of the madmen/women who harm others in the name of their particular magic dude.
theacademy 03.03.12	from that time when you didn't know how to respond earlier: the point you're missing is that you, and the AmericanAtheists.org, are really in no position to force people to "question" their beliefs... or rather, doing so is no different than a christian church putting up billboards in hebrew and arabic telling them about mr. jesus
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	I am skeptical, that's why I'm an agnostic atheist and not gnostic.
djocelot 03.03.12	"An atheist ideal that blinds itself to everything but the negative aspects of religion and religous behaviour, an ideal that leads a person to believe religion should not be allowed to exist. There are people who have sacrificed their lives, happiness and well-being to help others, and have done so in the name of some magic man/woman/folks in the sky. Quite a bit of the advancement of the human race has been down to religous people, and putting forward a hardline stance against the very existence of it is as misguided and shameful as the acts of the madmen/women who harm others in the name of their particular magic dude." So its being blind to think that people should do things because they want to do good things, not do good things to please a magic wizard?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	if people don't question their beliefs the world never moves forwards. If you allow people to hold ideas that discriminate against others then those people will be subject to attack. Were people not in the right to demand a liberation of slavery?
TheAshes 03.03.12	"go to hell" "I would if hell were real" "God's watching you masturbate" "He would if he were real" I'm atheist too but this is so fucking annoying
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	People should do things for the good of humanity and to help people not to kiss God's ass. It is pretty selfish to only help people for personal gain.
djocelot 03.03.12	its like not stealing for a store only because it has security cameras.
theacademy 03.03.12	so the best way to stop SOME religious groups from discriminating against people based on their sexual preference, sexual proclivities, or different religious belief is to just discriminate against ALL religious people equally.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'People should do things for the good of humanity and to help people not to kiss God's ass. It is pretty selfish to only help people for personal gain.' That's a bold statement. My grandmother was deeply a gnostic theist and I can tell you without a doubt that she did not do things simply because she wanted to go to heaven.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	"An atheist ideal that blinds itself to everything but the negative aspects of religion and religous behaviour, an ideal that leads a person to believe religion should not be allowed to exist. There are people who have sacrificed their lives, happiness and well-being to help others, and have done so in the name of some magic man/woman/folks in the sky. Quite a bit of the advancement of the human race has been down to religous people, and putting forward a hardline stance against the very existence of it is as misguided and shameful as the acts of the madmen/women who harm others in the name of their particular magic dude." But now those same ideals that helped shape our society are holding us back from moving forward.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@life: ya that is my point people should help because they genuinely want to help.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'so the best way to stop religious groups from discriminating against people based on their sexual preference, sexual proclivities, or different religious belief is to just discriminate against all religious people equally.' Fight fire with fire (along with irony) always seem to be the best way to get points across.
theacademy 03.03.12	and the BEST way to do this is actually to create a SUPER RELIGION that uses these things we read about called logics to boss around other religions...
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	There is a difference between questioning an ideal and discriminating against someone.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	ugh I'm really tired of arguing this but I feel as if I walk away it'll be taken as me forfeiting lol.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"So its being blind to think that people should do things because they want to do good things, not do good things to please a magic wizard?" 'Should' is the problem in all cases. Who decides who should do what? I'm an agnostic, so all the hardline religous people in the world, in theory, probably think I'm a godless bastard who deserves to suffer. Does that mean I should? The conservative leaders of my country think I should dedicate myself to the economy. Should I? Some of my friends think we should all accept anarchism as the only worthwhile political ideology. Should we? I think we should question, play and engage with what we have, with what exists. Constructive atheism/agnosticism, rather than the destructive kind.
TheAshes 03.03.12	what I don't get is, why do atheists get offended when a Christian tells them "you're going to hell" if they don't believe in hell in the first place?
djocelot 03.03.12	"so the best way to stop SOME religious groups from discriminating against people based on their sexual preference, sexual proclivities, or different religious belief is to just discriminate against all religious people equally." I'm not saying discriminate, just asking them to rethink their relentless bigotry. If it was only SOME people gay marriage and abortion would be legal, the problem is that it is MOST people.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@consider: ya we should consider all possibilities and do what makes the most sense.
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'what I don't get is, why do atheists get offended when a Christian tells them "you're going to hell" if they don't believe in hell in the first place?' Simply by saying that, the christian is apparently imposing his religion on the atheist.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	ya if the religious wanted to believe in God and got rid of the bigotry and hate I'd have no problem with them believing in God.
jwyles4 03.03.12	Atheists say it's not a religion, everyone else says it is. Who knows? I guess it's kind of like one of those is the cup half empty or full type things.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	Because telling me I am going to hell is a threat. Believe my ideals or you will suffer forever. I don't remember atheists making any threats to convert people.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"But now those same ideals that helped shape our society are holding us back from moving forward. " What's 'moving forward'? I live in a town where every church is dead and has been for decades, because religion in England is a shadow. Doesn't change the fact that a walk in the dark will guarantee a fight, usually against multiple opponents, usually armed to some degree, and usually willing to stamp on your skull for a laugh. The desire to fight, war, kill, rape, steal and possess is human, not religous.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@jwyles: is not collecting stamps a hobby? Is the NDP party of Canada a religion?
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	'ya if the religious wanted to believe in God and got rid of the bigotry and hate I'd have no problem with them believing in God.' You pay too much attention to the over-religious, rich, and influential people that show up on the television being idiots rather than what common people, who are more diverse and are usually more considerate, have to say. Look past them.
djocelot 03.03.12	"Should we? I think we should question, play and engage with what we have, with what exists. Constructive atheism/agnosticism, rather than the destructive kind." So whats wrong with asking other people to question what exists who wouldnt bother without a catalyst?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@consider: I understand there will be violence no matter what, but religion tells us only what we can't do and by alleviating that people will have much more freedom.
WashboardSuds 03.03.12	I'm Christian, or at least I believe in God, but from either side, atheist or religious, I can't stand it when people impose their beliefs on people who aren't open to change in the first place
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	@life: clearly not it is only personalities seeing as how political parties and law supports religious doctrine.
djocelot 03.03.12	"The desire to fight, war, kill, rape, steal and possess is human, not religous." "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
LifeAsAChipmunk 03.03.12	"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg' ...I don't even
theacademy 03.03.12	funeral and djocelot: both of you have extremely narrow definitions of 'discriminate' which is not all that unexpected, i suppose, given the extreme sensitivity and prejudice to alternative viewpoints that what you've demonstrated in this thread. I can now see that djocelot is confounding his unfamiliarity with american civics with his own personal prejudice. I am going out. ttyl.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	I disagree, man. All religions (I believe) do provide limits, rules and laws etc, and some (or most) are crazy as balls, some are evil... but some are kinda ok. It's generally only when you take written texts as the exact words of god/s that things get messed up. Religion is much more flexible than many seem to think. If it wasn't, how could we have gay clergymen and women in Christianity, and also the lunatics who go to the funerals of gay people, just so they can scream that god 'hates fags'? I just don't see where freedom exists in human existence, at all. We can create relatively liberal societies, but there will always be harsh laws, grey areas of ethical behaviour, unconscious prejudices, and endless other factors that put us into lanes.
mastille 03.03.12	In regards to the magic wizard tells you to argument, here's an excerpt from the 'How can you Have Morals Without God?' section on reddit: "We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn’t make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery -- and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture, like the golden rule, can be valued for its ethical wisdom without requiring us to believe that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe." So people that practice religion as a belief in doing good, and try to think and interpret for themselves what doing good means, are people I would respect over those that take the lore as it is written, because 'the magic wizard' or his 'human disciples' wrote it. I feel like people who do the latter are the ones that don't bother to try to understand why each rule is good or bad, or effectively develop compassion for those hurt (in bible myths, real life) by their bad deeds.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I find it silly when people say that you can pick and choose from the bible. It is either all true or none of it is true, how can it only be part true? Only what is convenience and congruent for you counts right? People acting as good citizens doesn't mean that they picked parts from the bible to be that way, they are that way because they chose to be and put a label on it.
djocelot 03.03.12	unfamiliar? I just dont agree with "american civics"....scratch that, I agree with the american civics in which this country was founded (freedom of speech and thought, ect...) not the closeminded hateful version it has evolved into. I honestly dont see how this billboard is more offensive then shit I see every single day about god. Im confounded by how much alternative thought rustles people's jimmies. All this accusation of discrimination by atheists is a double standard. I obviously cant change your mind about this, and you cant change mine. Wouldnt that make us equally narrowminded by your logic?
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	""With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg" Dawkins made the exact same point, but far more eloquently. The problem is, what's 'good' and what's 'evil'? Is capitalism good? Some would say it absolutely is, some would say the exact opposite. Are the things done in the name of capitalism good, or bad? Is a capitalist a good guy, or a bad guy? And, just as personal reflection, good people can do bad shit because they're drunk/upset/angry/misinformed. Is a person that does one evil action, and a million good ones, a bad person or a good person? Is a kid beaten by his dad into thinking violence is perfectly fine (as I was) evil, or misguided? If he redeems himself, but then slips because he's depressed, angry and drunk, is he evil, or what? Religion is brutally flawed, but so is every single ideology ever imagined by a human being.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	mr. middle ground up in here.
Tyrannic 03.03.12	"Religion is brutally flawed, but so is every single ideology ever imagined by a human being." ohmygodTHIS
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"I find it silly when people say that you can pick and choose from the bible. It is either all true or none of it is true, how can it only be part true? Only what is convenience and congruent for you counts right?" Ambiguity, translation, interpretation... whether they are parables, or the exact word of god? Of course there will be different ways of engaging with it. Contradiction is everywhere in human existence. We're animals, not computers.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	I think Weinberg's quote means that people who are good and have strong morality excluding subjective situations or emotions would not be discriminate against others if it were not for their religious indoctrination.
djocelot 03.03.12	@consider, Do you consider science an ideology?
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	many ideals that the bible lays out are clear as day though, I mean telling people to take gays to the edge of town and stoning them to death isn't exactly up for interpenetration unless God meant share a bong with them.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"mr. middle ground up in here." Haha do you mean me? I'm a radical postmodenist, baby.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"@consider, Do you consider science an ideology?" Empirical science at a base level is not ideological, I think, but science is subject to ideologies, whether political, religous or whatever. Ideology is a sneaky bastard, and it's not always as visible as you might imagine.
Funeralopolis 03.03.12	let's just all have a huff of a bong and call it a day.
someguest 03.03.12	I don't know Funeral, I didn't need the Bible's stance to go 'you know, those two dudes making out makes my stomach turn'
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	"many ideals that the bible lays out are clear as day though, I mean telling people to take gays to the edge of town and stoning them to death isn't exactly up for interpenetration unless God meant share a bong with them." There's some crazy bits in the Bible. Dawkins highlights a bit where a dude throws a woman to a crowd to get raped, then kills her and chops her up, all because it was her or the chick's husband. The crowd wanted to 'know' him. Not sure how people get past that shit, but they do. Just like capitalists do with the injustices of that sytsem, or communists etc etc. Life don't make sense, it just is. The only sensible position is amused detatchment.
someguest 03.03.12	"There's some crazy bits in the Bible. Dawkins highlights a bit where a dude throws a woman to a crowd to get raped, then kills her and chops her up, all because it was her or the chick's husband. The crowd wanted to 'know' him. Not sure how people get past that shit, but they do. Just like capitalists do with the injustices of that sytsem, or communists etc etc. Life don't make sense, it just is. The only sensible position is amused detatchment." How about separating the storytelling from the ideology?
djocelot 03.03.12	hehe okay, just checking. Ive been in this thread for too long, I should probably give it a rest. It just really bugs me when people call atheism a religion and call my views as a scientist an ideology. Particularly people on the internet who resort to insulting ones logic and calling them narrowminded for expressing a passionate opinion (cough thecademy cough) just because they didnt agree with it.
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	If a book outlining a way of life tells a story, and doesn't offer any critcism of the actions that take place within that story, doesn't it suggest that the book is down with those actions? I've given this some thought myself but lean towards thinking that the chap who wrote it probably wasn't a huge fan of homosexuality, or same-sex intercourse, at least, to the point where it was worth a chick's life to prevent it occurring.
mastille 03.03.12	To respond to Funeral - Prejudice against gays and others existed well before the Bible was written. The writers had to find a way to rationalize 'good' and their current systems of law and beliefs. Perhaps parts of the Bible were progressive for the time - the 'rich' weren't inherently superior to the 'poor' - but others were so revolutionary that they wouldn't be accepted by the masses, or the kings/rulers that had the bibles written. There was a lot of politics that went on before anything went on paper. So now we're in a similar situation, but more free and informed to define 'good' and 'bad' for ourselves, and not for our king. In earlier times, if anyone could 'disobey' the king, and say they wouldn't go to war for instance, that would mean the end of their society by the next invasion. Even the first French Revolution turned into a massacre. So blame the barbarity of the times over the Bible, which tried to keep people together and comfort them by telling them there was meaning in life and an afterlife for them and the loved ones they'd lost.
someguest 03.03.12	"If a book outlining a way of life tells a story, and doesn't offer any critcism of the actions that take place within that story, doesn't it suggest that the book is down with those actions? I've given this some thought myself but lean towards thinking that the chap who wrote it probably wasn't a huge fan of homosexuality, or same-sex intercourse, at least, to the point where it was worth a chick's life to prevent it occurring." But if it offered criticism, wouldn't that take away the whole 'free will' aspect of Christianity?
ConsiderPhlebas 03.03.12	Do you mean that the story kinda hangs there as a 'think of this what you will' kind of thing? Surely by providing an opposing position, more ambiguity would be created, more potential for (mis)interpretation and discussion etc.
Gyromania 03.04.12	I'm a little late to respond to some of these comments, but I just wanted to address this: "@consider: I understand there will be violence no matter what, but religion tells us only what we can't do and by alleviating that people will have much more freedom." You are aware that some of greatest scientific contributions of all time were not only made by those of faith but were also inspired by religious ideologies, right? Albert Einstein, the most revered scientist of the twentieth century, believed in a deity, and it helped motivate his interest in science. The codes followed by those of faith (typically) are respectable and dignified moral codes (your liking of them is irrelevant) - not those of which govern our lives, but those that help us better ourselves. Besides, people needn't contrive themselves to follow religion; we have the power of choice and freedom. If need be I will find you several examples of how religion has contributed dating back to the 15th century, so please don't try to tell us that religion impedes progress, because that is patently false.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	Of course Einstein was a theist, barley anyone was atheist prior to the 20th century. In Einstein's day we didn't have nearly as much scientific answers as we do now. Religion does impede progress in modern day society, not in past society, in the past it was very helpful.
Gyromania 03.04.12	"Religion does impede progress in modern day society" Want to make a bet? Because if you want me to, I'll cite over a dozen chemists, physicists, and astronomers in the twenty-first century who have either made or are making contributions. Moreover, outside of contemporary scientific accomplishments (of which there are many), how exactly is religion impeding man's progress? The capacity to do wrong will always exist (religion being part of the equation or not), but without religion's moral standards that millions of citizens advocate, I think it could be argued that we'd be morally corrupt beyond belief.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	the majority of the academy of science is atheist lol. The bible doesn't even prevent immorality seeing as how common it is first off, but second off that anyone can be forgiven as long as they are sorry anyway.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	Imagine if the real world worked liked that? You murder someone and as long as you are sorry you are free to go.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	Thanks for your non constructive, condescending remark.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	also what does someone being religious have to do with the fact that they are also a scientist? I am in marketing that isn't because I am a religious skeptic either.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	The way my old church used to work even that I went to was as long as you came to church you were free of all your sins up to that point when you attended.
Gyromania 03.04.12	If the majority of The Academy of Science is atheistic, a word which (contrary to popular belief) doesn't necessarily connote negativity, then how is religion impeding man's progress? You know what the funniest thing is? I'm agnostic, and I'm not leaning in favour of one over the other, but the reason I'm being so aggressive is that your qualms have no grounding. The bible isn't guaranteed to be 100% preventative of immorality - it's just in human nature. As I said, the capacity to commit evil will always exist. Your second post is pointless btw - in the real world, you kill someone and you go to jail, and it's always been like that. What you're referring to is invoking god's forgiveness, and it's not as easily attainable as you make it sound, nor does it even pertain to this plane of existence...
theacademy 03.04.12	plane*
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	Jesus died for our sins, as long as we are truly sorry and ask for forgiveness we are forgiven. The bible tells us not to do things, humans used the bible to get to where we are but it contains some outdated tenants that are unhealthy for society at this point and we would be better off using our bible made society as a cornerstone and building off it without its crutch.
Gyromania 03.04.12	Funeralopolis: We're just going to have to respectfully disagree on this one, otherwise we could be at this all night.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	Yea I am getting pretty tired of the religious debate over and over again.
Gyromania 03.04.12	Well I haven't engaged in one of these in a while, but at the very least it's good to get some discussion going and trade ideas/debate. And while it's fun for a while, at the end of the day there are two things that just really cannot be successfully argued: religion and politics.
Funeralopolis 03.04.12	I have basically been the centre of attention on these debates every day for the past like two weeks on sputnik lol.
theacademy 03.04.12	this was not supposed to be another religious debate thread uppity atheists got so defensive about the list title that nobody read about the crazies in the link
mastille 03.04.12	That comment that 'anyone can be forgiven as long as they are sorry anyway' oversimplifies the whole concept of this religion. Every transgression has consequences, whether it's confessing (for minor things, even being rude, etc.) to serving time behind bars. Of course they were much more rough about it in the bible. And as for being judged after death: feeling sorry isn't the same as feeling sorry for the sake of getting out of jail free. So that wouldn't work after death, and it doesn't work very well in any theist (or secular) law system either. Forgive and forget' was written as an ideal, trying to help people avoid feuds and attempt to practice mercy when 'wronged'. It's also meant as a phrase of wisdom and comfort: you shouldn't dwell on how others have wronged you. Put your chin up, and move on with your life.
Gyromania 03.04.12	"this was not supposed to be another religious debate thread" It's still as good a place as any for discussion though, don't you think? I actually read and looked at the pictures in the link (I even commented on them) but most people were discussing religion and there were a few points I wanted to address just because.
theacademy 03.04.12	cutman: i deleted your comment because it was long and not pertinent to this discussion
CutMan 03.04.12	Not pertinent to this discussion. It was pertinent in every way. With that deleted, I wonder how many insightful posts were deleted. Enjoy your bubble.
theacademy 03.04.12	it was laced with bigotry, and it ignored several earlier posts that addressed the same concerns. If you actually read the above discussion, and you still think your point was pertinent, then let me know and i'll re-post it. If not, and you're still looking to hang around, let me know and i'll direct you to some earlier comments that should help you out. Please keep it civil this time.
theacademy 03.04.12	I am only trying to keep the relevant comments here because this thread is becoming so unreasonably long and many users (like yourself) will be unable to read it (and therefore unable to participate in the discussion)
CutMan 03.04.12	No, that's fine. It can go. But "laced with bigotry"... That's just not true. At least tell me where that was in it so I can address it before leaving this topic, I don't need you smearing "bigotry" on my name here without my post even being present for others to read- thanks for that.
theacademy 03.04.12	no problem, man
CutMan 03.04.12	Alright, if you want to play that way, that's fine. I'll be on my merry way.
tarkus 03.04.12	watched the funniest video on youtube!! :D that was so funny. but haha age what a bumper sometimes :P
Gyromania 03.04.12	lmao
someguest 03.04.12	"Do you mean that the story kinda hangs there as a 'think of this what you will' kind of thing?" What I mean is, the 'rules' to the religion are pretty basic. And then there's the stories which go into detail. I think you're supposed to apply these 'rules' to the story, understand what the person/character did or didn't do right, and discover the true meaning for yourself.
Motiv3 03.04.12	How hard is it to fucking understand: The basis of Religion is the belief of the unknown or the unknowable. The basis of Atheism is the lack of belief in these things. Belief and faith are the two factors of foundation that epitomises a Religion. Atheism has neither. Therefore it is not a religion. Class over children.
theacademy 03.04.12	"The basis of Religion is the belief of the unknown or the unknowable." since this is wrong, try making your point without it!!!
Activista anti-MTV 03.04.12	The bible tells us not to do things, humans used the bible to get to where we are but it contains some outdated tenants that are unhealthy for society at this point and we would be better off using our bible made society as a cornerstone and building off it without its crutch. Crutches are fucking stupid, but society uses them everyday, like religion. Atheism is not a religion. What is atheism? Is it not believing in God? Is it not follow religion? What is it?
jdennis31 03.04.12	could ya'll imagine a world where everyone just got along? would be trippy as hell
someguest 03.04.12	the only reason life exists and evolves is through conflict though
ConsiderPhlebas 03.04.12	"What I mean is, the 'rules' to the religion are pretty basic. And then there's the stories which go into detail. I think you're supposed to apply these 'rules' to the story, understand what the person/character did or didn't do right, and discover the true meaning for yourself." Good point. Also, I've just read the chapter I was talking about, and the guy is critcized for his actions anyway. Dawkins 'uckin with my shi', that'll teach me.
redskyformiles 03.04.12	This entire thread should have been the word "no" in regards to the original question. The fact that this has carried into an almost 400 comment thread is fucking hilarious.
theacademy 03.04.12	ive also deleted like 100 comments